AndrewC Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sticking with the glue theme. (oh dear) I've been finding that Wickes solvent free "Forget Nails" is useless for styrofoam. After a couple of years the glue has let go of the styrofoam. Still stuck nicely to the wood but.... The recent cold snap has also shown the glue has shrunk and cracked where it was applied in a bead to fill gaps where the foam meets the wood frame. Will have to try out the Scotchweld. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 Thanks for that info Andrew. I'm sorry and surpised to hear of the problem. I've just checked my assembled boards, built 2+ years ago, and they appear to be fine. I've tried to pull apart one small section but it wouldn't budge, thank goodness. I used 'Gripfill' solvent free. http://www.screwfix.com/p/gripfill-solvent-free-350ml/64958;jsessionid=2W1DRJVT5Jqj7dKStmcsDWF4WVT42L3s7rJ0GD9y0FyQQgbxk9hw!-868119574 Available from all sorts of suppliers and builders merchants. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I've just checked my assembled boards, built 2+ years ago, and they appear to be fine. I've tried to pull apart one small section but it wouldn't budge, thank goodness... Mine were built in a cold and damp garage in November 2011 using No More Nails Interior type (i.e. solvent-free). One board is still enduring its second winter in the garage whilst the other two have been indoors for the last year. I used the same glue for wood to foam and foam to foam joints and all were clamped until dry. There's no signs of problems like those Andrew describes on any of the boards. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 John & Nick. I'm wondering if the problem is with the batch of glue or maybe its just the Wickes version is poor. Time to experiment with other brands and glues I think. The modules in question were assembled about 18 months ago and have stayed in the shed. Temp is kept between 5-25c and dehumidified in the winter. This past month we had a few days without head in the shed and the temp dropped to -3. Since then I've noticed the cracking and breaking of the glue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 John & Nick. I'm wondering if the problem is with the batch of glue or maybe its just the Wickes version is poor. Time to experiment with other brands and glues I think. I have found 'own brand' stuff sometimes isn't as good as it should be. Anyway, 'Gripfill' worked well for me. It does need at least 24hrs to go off properly.(more I guess, if you've got the time) That's the reason that I use large coarse threaded screws into the foam to keep the thin ply in good contact while it dries. Cramps and other methods of keeping it all together would do, but the large screws method make it so much easier. Please note: For any newcomers to this method do remember use only solvent free grab adhesive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 One of Matford's new boards made about 18 months ago. Still as they were when made. This is one and a half polyfoam boards wide with additional side bracing 3/4 sq" (20mm sq) which helps to keep the 4mm ply sides nice and straight. The end pieces are 12mm marine ply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Just caught up with this fascinating thread. I had planned to make my nect baseboards out of ply but I may reconsider after seeing some of the ideas on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sticking with the glue theme. (oh dear) I've been finding that Wickes solvent free "Forget Nails" is useless for styrofoam. After a couple of years the glue has let go of the styrofoam. Still stuck nicely to the wood but.... The recent cold snap has also shown the glue has shrunk and cracked where it was applied in a bead to fill gaps where the foam meets the wood frame. Will have to try out the Scotchweld. Just noticed your post by chance after talking with you about that issue this evening! Roundhouse is now over six years old. I used PVA wood glue to stick the two layers of 25mm foam (couldnt get 50mm thick at the time)together and then ont the 2 x 1" frame. Its still in place after about 30 shows but does take longer to dry than other glues as the foam insulates the water based glue from the air. The boards are a lot lighter than other materials although you do have to plan where your turnouts go for additional support for the solenoids / motors. Ian Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 An update on glue testing. Sticking foam to foam: Waterproof PVA: took 10 days to cure. Good bond but can be pulled apart. Useless for sticking track to foam. Good for track to open cell foam like Woodland Scenics underlay. Cork to styrofoam still not set even after 2 weeks. Grip-fix from Screw-fix: 5 days to cure. Better bond than PVA. No good for track to foam. Solvent free contact glue: brilliant but no chance to reposition the parts being glued. Gorilla glue: best thing ever. Sticks foam to foam, track to foam, just about anything. Rock solid in 24 hours. You just need to scratch the foam and dampen one surface. Use a lot less than you'd think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orinoco Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 What type of Gorilla Glue did you use please? There seem to be several types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 An update on glue testing. Sticking foam to foam:... An interesting and useful comparison, Andrew. Thanks for posting it. One question, was this done out in a shed/garage or indoors? My experience with No More Nails this time last year was that it took a a good four or five days to set in an unheated garage, but little more than 24 hours indoors. In summer, the outdoor drying time was similar to the indoor time. Probably comparable with your Grip-fix, but very dependent on temperature and or humidity. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 It's the basic Gorilla Waterproof glue. (Not the wood or cyano version) squeeze bottle with the goop that looks and acts like melted hot glue. The tests were in the shed where the temp was 5-20c. 5 overnight and 20 during the day. I also tried the PVA indoors with the foam to cork @ 20c+ and no difference to the curing rate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 With mention of glues for foamboard/styrofoam etc, I came across a glue kit from Deluxe http://www.geedee-modelshop.com/detail.asp?fldLowStocks=2&ProductID=12100&SubCategoryID=574 includes a foam friendly CA too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffinell Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 It is not cheap at over £8 for a 500 ml can and as no local DIY store stocked it i bought online. As it was a couple of years ago I can't remember exactly who supplied it but it might have been viking tapes. As I was laminating 3 layers i bought 4 tins and still have half a tin left. For plastic foam you basically spray either one or both surfaces, leave for 30 seconds or so and bring them together, bingo, instant grab. It cures in about 15-30 mins. ps I also find that the plastic sheets can take screws, not the self tapping type. My baseboards have lots of screws up to 4 inches long in areas where there is little loading and I just need to hold the blue foam in place. After i had laid the track and installed the wiring i realised i could have more scenic depth in front of the station. Adding a 3 inch strip of foam, glued and screwed. PLATFORM 01.jpg Dave, how did you carve the channels out - looks a very neat job that you've done there - was pondering this myself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Dave, how did you carve the channels out - looks a very neat job that you've done there - was pondering this myself I didn't as the original construction was 3 50mm sheets laminated together with the middle one 50mm narrower. If I was starting from scratch I would use solid main boards with 50mm x 50mm strips glued and screwed to the front of the boards to form the cable channel. This would use a lot less adhesive than laminating all those 50mm sheets. My baseboard might be over engineered being 150mm thick and perhaps a 100mm board might be OK. For this i would form the cable channel by adding a 50x50mm strip edge at the top and a strip of ply to the bottom. Pieces of the same ply would be stuck to the bottom of the board at various places. The drawing shows my boards at top left. How i would build them with 150mm board top right and using 100mm board plus ply at the bottom. ps - If I ever rebuilt the layout I would just turn the existing boards over and use the nice clean bottom surface! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 ...My baseboard might be over engineered being 150mm thick and perhaps a 100mm board might be OK... Dave, what I don't understand is the thinking behind the 150mm thickness. Were you trying to avoid any use of wood or ply in the construction? Many of us have used 50mm with thin ply facings and a minimal amount of wooden bracing underneath to be quite satisfactory. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Certainly over engineered. However the 1200mm wide boards can support themselves without any noticable flexing with just a 100x100mm bearing plate near each corner. No ply bracing is required. You could probably use a normal wood frame and a 50mm poly board on top. The wooden bracing would allow your wiring to be as normal under the baseboard but I hate crawling around and my support tables were all solid so my wiring is all surface mounted in little trenches carved out of the board surface. Hopefully it won't break and even if it does all the scenery on top will be detacheable so i can strip a board down if neccessary. A big problem with my railway room is part of the fiddle yard has to be lifted to allow entry to the operating well. I do this with a 150mm laminate of 3 boards which just drops into place. The first photo shows the 'bridge' standing on its edge and the second the 'bridge' in place. The track is joined by Kato expandable track pieces and the wiring has plug in jumpers. I can set the whole thing up or dismantle it in less than 3 minutes. Dave, what I don't understand is the thinking behind the 150mm thickness. Were you trying to avoid any use of wood or ply in the construction? Many of us have used 50mm with thin ply facings and a minimal amount of wooden bracing underneath to be quite satisfactory. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffinell Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 I didn't as the original construction was 3 50mm sheets laminated together with the middle one 50mm narrower. If I was starting from scratch I would use solid main boards with 50mm x 50mm strips glued and screwed to the front of the boards to form the cable channel. This would use a lot less adhesive than laminating all those 50mm sheets. My baseboard might be over engineered being 150mm thick and perhaps a 100mm board might be OK. For this i would form the cable channel by adding a 50x50mm strip edge at the top and a strip of ply to the bottom. Pieces of the same ply would be stuck to the bottom of the board at various places. The drawing shows my boards at top left. How i would build them with 150mm board top right and using 100mm board plus ply at the bottom. foam boards.jpg ps - If I ever rebuilt the layout I would just turn the existing boards over and use the nice clean bottom surface! Dave, maybe I'm missing your point, but I mean't the cable channels on the top boards that run under the tracks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Ah!, got it, the cable runs on the top of the baseboard. I drew the centre line of each channel with a ruler and ball point pen then cut the channel with a sharp craft knife holding the blade at about 45 degrees. the channels are actually 'V' shaped rather than 'U'. I did play around with building a custom cutter but in the end it was just as easy to simply use the knife. The channels don't reach the baseboard edges and I drilled a vertical hole for the wires through to the cable duct on the board edge. The wires are held in place with household pins bent over to a loop at the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Brighton Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I am planning a layout at the moment and am looking at using foam - 100mm dow floormate most likely and wouldn't mind some advice on the way I plan to build the boards. I have a very shallow pitched attic so the baseboards will be practically on the floor (I am a fairly young fella so can survive operating sitting or lying) to allow for the largest layout I can fit in. I want the bulk to be at least 250mm off the floor however to allow for a model of a viaduct at one side. I have made a mock up of how I plan to use and support the foam in google sketch up. The idea is to have about 20mm thick supports underneath raising the foam off the floor. Ply would be used across the front covering only 40mm of the foam to allow for landscaping of the top 60mm. the ply at the back would double as a back scene. Does this look sensible or silly? Thanks Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted July 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2013 Looks good Phil. I assume that it isn't to be portable. If it, is you could consider less thick and heavy uprights. Bringing the front ply panel (I use 4mm thick) up to the top of the foam would protect the edge from any damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 John, Do you use the 2" deep hard foam? Apart from perimeter protection would 2' wide foam need lateral supports underneath, really? Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Brighton Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Thanks for the quick replies. The layout is not going to be portable no. Planning to use 100mm foam and the ply doesn't come all the way up to the top so I can carve an embankment down to it out of the foam. As for the supports underneath they are to bring the majority of the layout up to a level high enough to run onto a viaduct in on one side. The foam is 2500mm x 600mm and the supports underneath will bring it about 150mm off the floor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2013 Underside of ROUNDHOUSE which we are exhibiting today at the Alton Limited show. So a quick photo showing the 2'' X 1'' framing under the 4 foot long by 30'' wide boards. The foam is two layers of 1'' thick as I couldn't get any thicker at the time. The boards are framed with thin ply to protect the edges of the foam. The layout has done about 50 shows in the 7 years since it was built and no sign of damage to the scenery do far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin1985 Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Slightly off the main topic, but davetheroad's weathering of the Kato unitrack there looks excellent! Is there a thread with more detail on the layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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