Styrofoam Baseboards ?

[dave_long]

Anyone have any more/newer comments on the pros and cons of cork, foam, thin ply or MDF as underlay on Styrofoam. I'm more concerned with noise and physical damage than needing a ballast shoulder. I've always built with birch ply in the past and laid track on that, so I can stand a little noise.

 

Regards

[Re6/6]

Just a warning to all that while I am still a huge supporter of using the styrofoam there is one important caveat that I have found as I have been progressing the layout.

 

The problem with it is that it really is not self-supporting. Therefore you either need to encase it in a sandwich structure as pictured above or reinforce it with something - in my case some aluminium U-shaped or box shaped bars.

 

Otherwise the styrofoam board will bow. In the case of the 50mm this distortion will be very significant and very clearly and immediately visible. However even with 100mm styrofoam board you will find that it cannot support it's own weight.

 

It's still a great medium - strong, lightweight, versatile etc - but you do need to be careful about the fundamental support

 

rgds

 

I absolutely agree with the above. Support is essential.

 

Just to repeat this is the way that I made a new board over two years ago now. There has been no bowing, warping, twisting etc.. at all, despite storage in a damp garage.

 

If the bottom piece of 6mm ply is stood on, only a very small amount of twisting motion can be made with a little force required.

 

 

I can't say right now Dave about noise etc.. but I'm proposing to use 4mm ply directly under the track formations glued down with the solvent-free adhesive used in the main construction and with Exactoscale type thin black foam glued on top of that. This idea appealed to me because the pointwork can be fitted, motorised, tested and glued down on the bench and then the ply and underlay assembly can be glued on to the polyfoam. This I feel would give good protection and stability.

 

 

 

[dave_long]

I had originally hoped to use the styro top without underlay, but the drum effect and potential damage to the top surface has lead me to need an underlay.

I was thinking of using c&l or nairnshire foam mat on the styro. Its for a on30 4x2 roundy roundy with tight radii. I think cork wouldn't help. I will probably cover the entire surface as opposed to just the track bed. Which is why the thin ply or MDF might be useful.

[Re6/6]

4mm ply would do the trick for a 'full' covering as long as it's well glued and weighted.

 

Only a personal thing, but I wouldn't touch MDF  with the proverbial bargepole for any baseboard work, Use of it was one of the prime reasons that Matford (old) is now in landfill!

[Black Sheep]

 

 

 

 

I love the Macbooks track pad, mines set for 2 finger tap for right click and two finger drag to scroll. Works a treat, however I NEVER use the magic mice, Mac's will accept any mice and recognise the right click just fine. So IMO best solution for mac's with mice is to replace the silly Mac 'thing' with a decent proper USB rodent.

I prefer the older 'mighty mouse' that will, if asked, recognise a right click but is generally set to be an entire mouse body left click. Unfortunately the scroll balls all seem to stop working too easily.

[dave_long]

Thanks John

I had only thought of using a thin MDF as a top to the Styrofoam, never as a board on its own. I semi decided to try a self adhesive 3mm closed cell foam last night, I'm happy with the strength of the Styrofoam, but just want to dampen the noise and protect the surface.

[billbedford]

Experience has shown that glueing ply to a foam baseboard is a recipe for warped boards.

[dave_long]

Thanks Bill that was one thing that has crossed my mind, that anything below 6mm or even below 9mm might twist and warp from being glued down to a styrofoam board. The styrofoam does twist.

 

ok I'm heading towards the closed cell foam more now, so the question becomes 3mm or 5mm. Nairnshire do both and c&l do the foam too, but there are other paces selling adhesive backed foam 3 and 5mm thick for a big size. A thought I had with regards the foam, is that if something needs anchoring down more ie ground throws or turnouts, then a hole can be cut in the foam and a piece of 3mm or 5mm ply or obechi/bass wood panel can be glued in for strength.

 

Regards

[Re6/6]

Experience has shown that glueing ply to a foam baseboard is a recipe for warped boards.

 

Hadn't considered that Bill.

 

I'll report back after laying the individual 'track/foam underlay/ply' pieces. I don't anticipate any problems doing that way. The construction described above has remained totally flat and stable, and is virtually 'unbendable/twistable' after two years or more. I feel that the bracing has ensured that.

 

Still we'll see.

[plarailfan]

I got two sheets of the Knauf, pink stuff just before Christmas 2012, at the B & Q warehouse, Huddersfield. (there was a small notice saying they were being subsidised for a limited / unspecified time) Then I went back for another sheet last week (Jan 2013) and was charged a fiver. ( £1.25 extra - maybe the subsidy had expired )?

I'm going to use them for baseboards and would like to know the best method of fixing the track and also, can you use PVA wood glue, to stick ballast and other scenery to these sheets ?

[Re6/6]

Have a look here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34132-styrofoam-baseboards/page-4&do=findComment&comment=915051

 

There are two threads going on this subject!

 

I'm not too sure that PVA would stick stuff to it. Solvent-free grab adhesive (No More Nails type) will, but leave it for at least 24 hours to be safe.

 

I wouldn't be inclined to try to fix ballast and track directly to it. 4mm ply (track/point template sized pieces) glued down first would be ideal and then thin foam/cork on top of that before tracklaying and ballasting. 

[dave_long]

PVA would take a very long time to dry, so avoid it if you can. You can lay directly on the foam if you wish, however unless dampened some other way the space board does a very good impression of a drum.

I've just ordered some adhesive backed 3mm closed cell foam to try out. I'll post news when laid.

The surface of the space board can damage easily, and I've heard from a few US modellers that overtime structures directly on space board can seem to float. But it is your layout and it is not impossible to lay on the board and if you do I'd probably recommend copydex (latex caulk) or matte medium (klear too if you can find some).

 

Hth

[ullypug]

I'm going to use them for baseboards and would like to know the best method of fixing the track and also, can you use PVA wood glue, to stick ballast and other scenery to these sheets ?

Yes you can, though I would recommend painting the top of the board with emulsion.

Agree with the comment ref noise though.

[big jim]

still loads in crewe....

 

out of interest when using these for scenic work i take it you just cut them to however you want but is it then possible to smooth it with say an electric sander to get a better finish or would it just break up?

[buffalo]

Jim,

I use a drywall saw for rough cutting shapes and a surform tool like this or this for shaping. I then cover with a thin layer of Sculptamold. I don't normally sand it, but have sanded it by hand and using an orbital sander when I've needed flat surfaces to match up. Keep the vacuum cleaner handy because it's a messy job. Others have said that an old bread knife is good for cutting shapes.

 

Nick

[Mod6]

There are two threads going on this subject!

 

Now merged

[buffalo]

Experience has shown that glueing ply to a foam baseboard is a recipe for warped boards.

I'm sure you're speaking from experience, Bill, but my experience so far has been different. I have three boards, 800mm, 1280mm and 1400mm long with both the base and landscaping done in Knauff board. So far, I've more or less finished the short one, am part way through landscaping the middle one and the long one is still in the raw pink foam (the bare boards can be seen here). The trackbed is 4mm birch ply fixed to the foam with No More Nails and the rest is covered with a thin layer of sculptamold. So far, I've not seen any warping, only a slight sag towards the middle of the longer boards, and that was easily remedied by some additional bracing underneath. The birch ply is very stable though I wouldn't have wanted to try anything cheaper.

 

Nick

[billbedford]

I used 50mm Urethane boards for the layout top, and because my mate was completely unsure of the technique we glued 4mm ply to the underside with PVA. After a couple of months all the boards warped quite substantially. If I were to repeat the process I think I just put thin plywood or hardboard on the edges to protect the foam and leave the top and bottom plain foam.

 

The layout was done for the 18.83 challenge and this is what it looked like before it went into warp drive:-

 

[Re6/6]

 If I were to repeat the process I think I just put thin plywood or hardboard on the edges to protect the foam and leave the top and bottom plain foam.

 

 That's precisely what I've done Bill (see #208 above)

 

Boards built over two years now and not a trace of warping or twisting. I've got six more built over a year ago with the same result. With this method it's almost impossible to twist them torsionally by standing on the 'join' end and trying so to do.

 

As far as I can see, it's putting in the semi-diagonals that seems to give the rigidity.

[davetheroad]

I used a sandwich of three 50mm layers for this baseboard. However there was some varaibility in the thickness so if i was doing another baseboard i would buy a solid 150mm thick sheet and carve out the cable channel.

 

I used Scotchweld 77 spray adhesive as it is formulated for closed cell foam.

 

[dave_long]

Thanks for tip on scotchweld. I'll get some, what was the drying time?

[Re6/6]

Thanks for tip on scotchweld. I'll get some, what was the drying time?

...and where from? Sounds a good alternative to grab adhesive.

[davetheroad]

It is not cheap at over £8 for a 500 ml can and as no local DIY store stocked it i bought online. As it was a couple of years ago I can't remember exactly who supplied it but it might have been viking tapes. As I was laminating 3 layers i bought 4 tins and still have half a tin left.

 

For plastic foam you basically spray either one or both surfaces, leave for 30 seconds or so and bring them together, bingo, instant grab.

It cures in  about 15-30 mins.

 

ps I also find that the plastic sheets can take screws, not the self tapping type. My baseboards have lots of screws up to 4 inches long in areas where there is little loading and I just need to hold the blue foam in place.

 

After i had laid the track and installed the wiring i realised i could have more scenic depth in front of the station. Adding a 3 inch strip of foam, glued and screwed.

 

[dave_long]

Thanks for that, this looks just what I need. Have you any experience of using the glue to stick down thin ply/MDF or cork for underlay or board edge protection?

 

I've had my closed cell foam topper delivered and hope to lay that down today, at 3mm thick there is very little spring which is what I had hoped for, plus the selling blurb for this cc foam was heavy on the noise/vibration reduction properties.

 

Regards

[davetheroad]

As it is a multipurpose adhesive is should at least stick cork to foam. however i have no experience of this as my Kato track is held down with household pins and the occasional dab of copydex.