Jenny Emily Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Today on the A580 I reached the stop line in lane 1 at a box juction that has one of these red light Gatso cameras just as the lights turned to amber. I was doing 20 (in a 50 zone) and had a vehicle too heavy to safely stop without skidding or shifting its load (around 30 tons gross vehicle weight) so continued, as the lights were amber. The lorry in front slowed on the junction, appearing to miss a gear change, forcing me to slow and the lights would have been on red by the time the trailer wheels passed over the trigger loops. The camera flashed twice, however there was a Mercedes in lane 2 going it some who clearly did run the red light as he would have been way behind me when I entered the junction who could have been the reason the camera activated. I'm rather annoyed at this, having had a clean licence since I passed my test in 1997. However having searched all information I can find on the internet, I can find no reference to how the cameras deal with vehicles that have more than two axles (mine had five - two on the tractor unit, and three under the trailer) as how does it know that these are the same vehicle as opposed to two separate vehicles? I also cannot find anything that says whether the camera knows which lane the vehicle running the lights was in. Given the Mercedes passed at warp speed and my trailer was a tall reefer that would have obscured the car from the camera, would there be any evidence recorded to prove that the picture of the rear of my vehicle was in a different lane from the vehicle running the light? All the sites I can find are assuming that you are in a car and not a very long lorry. I tend to be a worrier, and it may be that a human operative looks at the pictures first and discounts those that clearly would have activated the Gatso with rear axles on a long trailer, or have been activated by a vehicle in another lane that may not show properly in the picture. However it isn't nice having the sword of Damocles dangling over my clean licence for the next month just in case the fuzz decide to shaft me anyway. Can anyone provide any enlightenment over the way these things actually work and dish out points and fines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Jenny, If I was a cop I'd ask you why were you going to fast to stop at the red light yet the truck in front of you forced you to slow right down? You may want to rethink your wording. I have no idea what the consequences will be if any - I do know that it is pointless worrying about it in the meantime, life's too short. I've had a clean British license since 1968 - no one has offered me a prize yet; I've been stopped for speeding 4 times in the 'States and ticketed twice. It is just a fact of life unfortunately. Don't worry. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Jenny, If I was a cop I'd ask you why were you going to fast to stop at the red light yet the truck in front of you forced you to slow right down? You may want to rethink your wording. Fair point. Let me rephrase: the truck in front missed a gear meaning that he didn't speed up, checking my rate of acceleration and forcing a brake application to avoid hitting him. I therefore went across the junction at a slowly diminishing speed rather than accelerating. He didn't stop moving and I was in the junction longer than I might have otherwise been. I have no idea what the consequences will be if any - I do know that it is pointless worrying about it in the meantime, life's too short. Yes, I know you're right. But it doesn't shut the paranoia up. Still, worrying about it won't change the outcome. And yet my personality type makes me worry nonetheless. The prize, by the way, for keeping your licence clean is slightly more affordable car insurance and retaining your job with an employer that demands clean licences for being retained on the contract. Well, it is in my case. And it was the best day job I've had in a while too (authorised freebies from many of the factories we pick up from and generous expenses package). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 When there are multiple vehicles in a speed camera photo it can be difficult to identify which vehicles was travelling at what speed. If you do get a ticket, which if it is as you describe the course of events it not that likely and there is any doubt you do have the right to challenge it. Good Luck Xerces Fobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 As a fellow HGV Driver, I'd say don't go looking for too much sympathy here on a Railway Forum - speaking from experience... ... and a green light is, inevitably, going to change to amber then red at some point... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would suggest that as red light cameras have to take at least two photos for the interpreter to reach a conclusion, your slow speed will be revealed, and if the interpreter is fair minded, he/she will conclude you were caught in an unusual situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 You can argue the point till you are blue in the face but the law is the law, if you went over the stop line when the lights were showing stop (and amber also means stop in the law), then you've broken it. As pointed out if you couldn't stop in time, then you were driving too fast / dangerously for the conditions. Take your pick. Personally i'd go for the fixed penalty and 3 points for the lights. Been there, seen it, done it and got the T shirt (and the three points) myself. Deal with it, the rest of us have had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Geoff is on the button. The machine takes multiple images at finite small intervals. Your rig will have moved 'X' feet during the sequence indicating your speed during tha flashes and the Mercedes will be shown to have moved a greater distance in the same time scale indicating higher speed/later entry to the box. Worry not. Keep on trucking. Doug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Sorry, but I disagree Andy C. Amber does not mean stop, it means stop if it is safe to do so. Example:- you are doing 30 mph and the lights turned amber when you are 1 car length from the stop line, it is impossible to stop at all, let alone safely. This is why there is an amber, not just red and green. The red light camera is set up to 'snap' the vehicle that crosses the stop line after red is showing and therefore it should be obvious when the picture is checked. Jeff 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Was it a "box" junction? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod5 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Was it a "box" junction? Ed Today on the A580 I reached the stop line in lane 1 at a box juction that I think before this thread becomes too clogged up with differing points of view that will assist you very little it is probably best if you await to see if you do in fact receive anything through the post. OK you have asked for opinions but until you do receive notification one way or the other they will judging by the above be more confusing than helpful. If you do receive a summons or Fixed Penalty Notice then you will have a choice to accept that or plead not guilty in a court where a solicitor will be far more use to you than conflicting views on here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think another point has been missed here. Ignoring the rights/wrongs of the driver (not anticipating the lights to change etc) the operation of the lights and camera could be better understood. Traffic lights operate basically on a timing sequence, supplemented by road sensors. These sensors can usually be seen as a thin tarmac rectangle on the approach, they are basically inductive loops to detect the presence of a vehicle. Gatso (speed) cameras work on a doppler/radar type signal, sensing the movement of a vehicle. 2 pictures are taken over a precise time, giving proof of the distance moved by the vehicle. This is usually supplemented by white lines on the road; these would be used in court as proof of speeding. Note that the Gatso always faces the rear of the vehicle. An alternative make, the Truvelo, faces the front. The Gatso can differentiate between cars and larger vehicles, so can enforce differing speed limits. Traffic light cameras are triggered either by using ground loops in the road surface or radar. With loops, when the traffic lights turn red the system is actived, a vehicle passing over the loop after this time is then photographed. Radar based traffic light cameras work the same way as fixed Gatso speed cameras. In addition, it has been stated that a lot of these can/will be converted to act as speed cameras as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseboy72 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Jeff is spot on. Provided the majority of the tractor unit (IE, your front wheels and seating position) was over the line before the light went red, you should be fine. The offence is passing a traffic light at red. Your speed is immarterial in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted August 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2011 As a fellow HGV Driver, I'd say don't go looking for too much sympathy here on a Railway Forum - speaking from experience... While I would expect many RMWebbers to wish HGV loads were actually on rail instead, hopefully we see the drivers as people like us - ok Jenny Emily is half my age and the opposite sex, but you see what I mean! And, seeing how badly many of us drive a mere car, I do regard them as having a tough job. Last night my HGV-driving godson was telling tales of being in a 220-vehicle convoy - in Helmand Province..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 One thing that only Jenny has mentioned, what happens if the Merc was completely obscured by her trailer? (although if it was it that set the camera off and the camera was a radar one then presumably it must have been in sight enough to trigger) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2011 Jeff is spot on. Provided the majority of the tractor unit (IE, your front wheels and seating position) was over the line before the light went red, you should be fine. The offence is passing a traffic light at red. Your speed is immarterial in this instance. From what I know from talking to a traffic officer you should be ok, though they might drop you in what they call the amber gambler group ( for a good reason in your case), if it's a gatso from behind it may well have actually caught the Merc before he was shielded by your trailer anyway. Passing the light at red is the offence not having along vehicle that can trigger the loops twice. Remember even if you get a demand you can appeal and explain why you passed the yellow, a fine and points isn't always the end result. Challenge with a well written statement if it does come to that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Speaking with a little experience, (although I'm not willing to divulge why and what!), if you get a letter from the police, I would expect a photo of the "offence" taking place which should settle the matter. If you feel there is a grey area with the Merc, I would advise you to have your case heard at court and put this point to the magistrates. Remember, you're innocent till proven guilty and I would expect if there's ANY doubt, the ticket will not even be issued. Good luck, but even the best of us get it wrong some times, so don't go beating yourself up about it. No one appears to have got hurt so take that from the experience. Cheers. Sean. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Thanks for the replies. I'll just see what happens and hopefully, as some of you point out, it will probably be nothing. I think Top Gear proved that short of being pushed along by an English Electric Lightning with full afterburner lit up, if the Merc triggered the camera, it will be on the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The only time I have been stopped by the police was in Leeds going through a set of traffic lights. The police car was behind me and by the time I went through the lights they were showing amber. I was pulled over a little way down the road (they obviously waited for the lights to change) I was asked had I seen the lights change. I replied that I had and that they had only changed to amber. I proceeded to be given a lecture that being so I had actually passed them on red. The time taken to see amber and cross the line was sufficient for them to be red on crossing the line unless I was speeding (which I was not). Amber means stop just as much as red and your speed approaching lights would be low enough to stop if you see the light change from green. Still no ticket, still a clean license after 32 years, still lucky. You can argue the point till you are blue in the face but the law is the law, if you went over the stop line when the lights were showing stop (and amber also means stop in the law), then you've broken it. As pointed out if you couldn't stop in time, then you were driving too fast / dangerously for the conditions. Take your pick. Personally i'd go for the fixed penalty and 3 points for the lights. Been there, seen it, done it and got the T shirt (and the three points) myself. Deal with it, the rest of us have had to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Another point worth mentioning if you haven't already thought of this and assuming you arent an Owner driver, it is worth speaking with your transport office and put your side to them now. Apart from anything it will speed up the process of you knowing if you have anything to worry about as they as the vehicle owners will get sent the initial contact from the police. I say this as well because when I was in a transport office the letter we received specifically asks to provide details of the driver and they will also know that you will want to contest it hence can ask for the photos etc. It is also worth getting any particular detials noted down by your office before you forget them, they should also respect you for being honest and be more sympathetic in helping you. Also are you a member of the union, if so speak with your rep and ask them the process, they should also be prepared to help you if you choose to fight any claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2011 The only time I have been stopped by the police was in Leeds going through a set of traffic lights. The police car was behind me and by the time I went through the lights they were showing amber. From the highway code Junctions controlled by traffic lights 175 You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision. So assuming you were "so close ...." they had no reason to stop you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted August 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 5, 2011 Amber means stop just as much as red and your speed approaching lights would be low enough to stop if you see the light change from green. Not quite, the highway code wording is poor on this issue, but states "AMBER means 'Stop' at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident" So if I'm approaching an amber light and a bozo behind me is accelerating I'm still going to go through the amber light rather than be tailgated. Still no ticket, still a clean license after 32 years, still lucky. Agreed, even with defensive driving I think there's still an element of luck in keeping a clean license for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Should have read the OP properly, but my point was "do not enter the box unless your exit is clear". Ed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2011 I agree with Beast, Kenton may have got a lecture but hadn't actually committed an offence as he could say he judged he couldn't stop safely. If the police had him on the cars camera accelerating on yellow then they can prosecute for driving without due care and attention or even dangerous driving. Jenny you saw the Amber and judged you couldn't stop safely with the load on board at the Stop line, record all the details you've mentioned in a letter and the road condition while it is fresh in your memory and even if it does come to you challenge it. Amber does mean stop but if you are travelling at 40-50 legally approaching lights and they go to Amber a couple of car lengths in front then there is no way anything short of an F1 car would manage to stop safely, ( and then he'd be rammed by the golf behind him!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 So assuming you were "so close ...." they had no reason to stop you ... and I was crediting them with being lenient and friendly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts