frobisher Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 One final point. If Bachmann/GF come up with a system which is incompatible with the Dapol one, then the standardisationi of couplers will be lost. That would not help sales of either brand. Given that both come with NEM rapidos in the box in any case..? NEM couplings in N are a doddle to change, and I can live with the "hardship" of standardising to one system or the other for the new magnetic couplers. If the Dapol ones are better for me, that's the way I'll go and if the Bachmann ones are better for me, I'll take them. Microtrains compatibility is neither here nor there now given their relucatnce to advance a NEM version of their product - they've now missed the boat for markets that don't actually have a need to be compatible (Europe...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 By contrast, how many WCML layouts are there? Kintlet Wharf springs to mind and maybe a few others but Dapol themselves have said that the sales of the class 86 have been slow. Maybe it is the only WCML loco available to modern standards but you have the 87 and 90 from Farish which are at least passable representations of the prototypes and Dapol have introduced RTP catenary to make the job easier. The Pendolinos work the WCML only and need wires. For my money the BP seems potentially a better seller than a Pendolino. We were talking about the pendolino today at the Barrow show. For Kinlet we are looking at about 4 so that we can remove 2 of the 86/87/90 + DVT sets in each direction. Personally I would rather Dapol went for say an approach more like they do with the HST eg sell box set with 2 driving coaches plus say say a power car and buffet with the rest of the set as individual add ons. I like this Idea as it would make it look cheaper when I will have to smuggle the boxes past the missus, however is the box that the 4 car set came in was big enough to hold the full 9 car rake (after buying a precut yellow foam block with 9 spaced nice and tightly packaged together) that would be even better, as I have managed to get all the stuff for the Mark 3 virgin rake in to the box set one and it takes up less room in the stock box like that. Whether the BP will be a reliable guide to the level of Pendolino sales is not quite the same thing as seeing how many folk out there are prepared to shell out £300ish on a toy train, and it might be a good way of measuring just how much solid ground there is behind the froth. I would have to eventually. An A4 Sir Nigel Gresley or double tender Dominion of Bittern (hopefully) and Flying Scotsman will definitely find their way on to the layout and if Tangmere appeared then it would too. I am still waiting impatiently for the 92 and a dummy 86 in Freightliner aswel. Alistair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 I'll be happy to give feedback on the final product IF I'm not happy It may be nice for all of us occasionally to give feedback when we are happy too. While the manufacturers are of course businesses first, there are also people behnd them and I suspect that only ever receiving bad feedback can make it seem a thankless task! Also, an adaptor to enable NGS bogies to be fitted (with a slight modification) with NEM couplers is in development. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 The regular N Wales drags and the diversions during the WCML upgrade give an excuse to run one without wires As per my earlier comment, if it is possble to get an authentic 8/9/11 car rake the I will buy one, possibly more, at the proposed price. If its only possible to get a short set, I will pass. Your perogative, of course, but I'd rather have a four piece book set, and then intermediate cars as and when, than no Pendolino at all. The Japanese market may be able to sustain book sets of complete 9-car trains where every vehicle is different from the get-go, but I think we have to be more realistic in Britain. N needs a model of such an iconic train if it's to offer a credible mass-market alternative to OO. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Your perogative, of course, but I'd rather have a four piece book set, and then intermediate cars as and when, than no Pendolino at all. The Japanese market may be able to sustain book sets of complete 9-car trains where every vehicle is different from the get-go, but I think we have to be more realistic in Britain. N needs a model of such an iconic train if it's to offer a credible mass-market alternative to OO. Yep, I'd rather a four car starter set and be able to purchase coaches to build up a full train. And of course not all Japanese products are complete; the Kato Eurostar requires add on packs to make a complete rake. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yep, I'd rather a four car starter set and be able to purchase coaches to build up a full train. And of course not all Japanese products are complete; the Kato Eurostar requires add on packs to make a complete rake. G. Mr Hedges contemplating stepping north of the Thames just when all manner of RTR things Southern region are about to descend upon us!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yep, I'd rather a four car starter set and be able to purchase coaches to build up a full train. This would make the set more appealing to those who don't have room to run the full length train but it also brings the question of whether enough of the extra coaches would be sold to justify the investment in them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Your perogative, of course, but I'd rather have a four piece book set, and then intermediate cars as and when, than no Pendolino at all. The Japanese market may be able to sustain book sets of complete 9-car trains where every vehicle is different from the get-go, but I think we have to be more realistic in Britain. N needs a model of such an iconic train if it's to offer a credible mass-market alternative to OO. cheers Ben A. I was not referring to getting a full 9 car set in one box I was referring to the ability to form an authenic set; something which is not possible for the HST. I have no problem with having a 4 or 6 car base pack and adding the others seperately. The issue is would the sales of the 6 car BP be anyway indicative of the sale of a 6 car pendilino (which is partly why Dapol is waiting). I don't think it's that relavant, particulatly as they could make it as a 4 car set (two ends and two pantagrapgh coaches). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Two ends, one pantograph coach and the buffet would hide the motor better! I agree though that we don't want to be in the position of the HST where people are holding off buying because the buffets are not available, and when/if they are released the saloons will probably have sold out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 Given that both come with NEM rapidos in the box in any case..? NEM couplings in N are a doddle to change, and I can live with the "hardship" of standardising to one system or the other for the new magnetic couplers. If the Dapol ones are better for me, that's the way I'll go and if the Bachmann ones are better for me, I'll take them. Microtrains compatibility is neither here nor there now given their relucatnce to advance a NEM version of their product - they've now missed the boat for markets that don't actually have a need to be compatible (Europe...). Well, the manufacturers seem to think standardisation is important--or most of them at any rate. In fact the only market I'm aware of that isn't currently standardised is European HO--and even there there is only one 'incompatible' brand (Fleischmann). Microtrains compatibility doesn't matter, but I think it IS important for there to be compatibility between Dapol and Farish (and Peco and others, too). It might not make any difference to you directly, but I *suspect* it would affect take-up of the scale as a whole. A case for involvement by the N Gauge Society, perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 A case for involvement by the N Gauge Society, perhaps? Ben has made "watch this space" comments for some time so I suspect that the NGS is "in the loop" to some extent on the subject of couplers. There is always going to be a degree of difficulty in that both Dapol and Farish probably regard the work as commercially sensitive and there is a limit to how much they would be willing to share information with a non-commercial body like the NGS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Mr Hedges contemplating stepping north of the Thames just when all manner of RTR things Southern region are about to descend upon us!! Urggghh. I only said a four car set - it doesn't have to be something foreign. It could be a starter set for a Gatwick express set, or a 10 car EPB train, or a 6PUL or a Wessex Express for example. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 A Wessex set - now there's something Dapol should do - they have the basic body shell, they have a low floor chassis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 All this talk of a Wessex - stop teasing - they wouldn't, would they? I'd certainly snap one up, even though my winter project is a TPM conversion. Mind you I'd given up on a 50 until CJM came up trumps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Well, the manufacturers seem to think standardisation is important--or most of them at any rate. In fact the only market I'm aware of that isn't currently standardised is European HO--and even there there is only one 'incompatible' brand (Fleischmann). There are plenty of incompatible coupling systems available for the European HO market, most of which plug into NEM mounts of one description or other... Microtrains compatibility doesn't matter, but I think it IS important for there to be compatibility between Dapol and Farish (and Peco and others, too). It might not make any difference to you directly, but I *suspect* it would affect take-up of the scale as a whole. And funnily enough Dapol and Farish have both standardised on NEM mounts. If you want compatibility between Dapol, Farish and Peco then the rapido (which will still come shipped in the box from the first two regardless) is your only choice. Peco went their own special way early on with their Elsie couplers and I very much doubt the Dapol or Farish knuckles can be made to fit the mounts for those without modification... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Just a quick one for DapolDave (and on topic too ) Will the A3 tooling support Dapol producing the Gresley A1 in future? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 Microtrains compatibility doesn't matter, but I think it IS important for there to be compatibility between Dapol and Farish (and Peco and others, too). It might not make any difference to you directly, but I *suspect* it would affect take-up of the scale as a whole. A case for involvement by the N Gauge Society, perhaps? Hi there, It would be ideal if the Farish and Dapol products were compatible; but because the actual shape of the coupler hooks is bound to be slightly different it may be that they work much better with themselves than with each other, even though they follow the same basic principles. However, since we now have NEM pockets on nearly all new releases (thanks to the foresight of key personnel at the manufacturers and some pressure from the NGS and others) it doesn't actually matter since they can be mix-and-matched as the modeller requires. Indeed, I foresee a situation where fixed rakes of coaches can use Dapol's fixed buckeyes; locomotives and end-of-rake vehicles can use the new magnetic buckeyes and older stock can be retrofitted as required using a combination of Dapol, Farish, Microtrains and NGS adaptor products. The point is that the NEM fixing system means customers can decide on the best solution for their needs. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 I was not referring to getting a full 9 car set in one box I was referring to the ability to form an authenic set; something which is not possible for the HST. I have no problem with having a 4 or 6 car base pack and adding the others seperately. Fair enough, but you did say that you would pass on buying anything at all unless it was possible to create a full, authentic train right from the start. IMO with cashflow issues and tight margins a 4-car starter set is a more realistic target - and your stated position of refusing to buy anything until you can buy everything would most likely leave us all with nothing. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 This thread has drifted off-topic a bit, but on the subject of the Pendolino, I am in the market for 2 of them, so I'm keen Dapol make theirs (although I got tired of waiting and made my own!). I was surprised they even announced it, but it was in an era of giddy economic expansion, and now back in the real world, I very much doubt the numbers stack up. That said, as it is such an important train for anyone modelling today's WCML, I would be very happy to have a 'basic' model that would cost them a lot less. Like their Voyager, it doesn't need an interior, nor does it need to tilt, and the level of detail doesn't need to anywhere near match the proposed Blue Pullman. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 FWIW I'd have a pendo, and don't have a problem with selling them as per the Dapol HST offering - 4 cars and the extra's to buy separately. Don't forget, unlike the HST, or DMUs/37/47/57/66, there is only one livery option..... I'm more concerned about this coupler. I understand that its supposed to be "dead easy" to change, but it will put some people off. And what do the trade think of this ? We have a UK standard coupler at the moment, and I'd say the vast number of n gaugers are happy with it. Of course, there will always be some (as in OO) who want something better, but will this suit them ? And unless I'm missing something, I'd question the use of track mounted magnets. Now, track mounted electromagnets on the other hand.....go on, someone explain how this would work to aviod unwanted uncoupling ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 I don't think this has drifted off-topic, but there are two threads to it now; the couplings bit and the "what prototype" bit. Can I suggest that it may be a good idea to split it? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think you will be surprised at how many of us have been waiting for NEM compatible knuckle couplers. They shouldn't inadvertently uncouple as they clasp together and whilst there is some tension between one coupler and the next they will stay shackled. The magnets operate the coupling opening when the tension is released by reversing slightly so that the clasps are no longer locked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Prototype Deltic - Farish. Tom. Ahhh right, thanks. I thought there'd been some announcement I'd missed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 Hi Dave, I think the Rapido coupler, while a useful standard in the late 1960s, has in recent years held N back in terms of attracting new entrants from other scales and made it harder for existing N Gaugers to make the most of the smooth, slow running and "shuntability" of the current crop of new models. And, as has been made abundantly clear, they can easily be swapped for Rapidos, or other suitable moulded couplers, thanks to the simple snap-in nature of the NEM socket. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Cheers Ben and Woodenhead Its me, just couldn't get the way they worked into my head. I'll hold counsel until I've seen them in the flesh, and maybe a youtube clip shows their effectiveness ! Just out of interest, I suppose Dapol will continue to fit their DMU stock with the working Scharfenberg coupler like they do at the moment ? Good news all round, more models and innovation like this. Seems we have a bit of a turf war at the moment in N, and it lured me back a couple of years ago. Exciting times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.