GC Jack Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Am I alone in noticing significant changes in the hobby. Some of the members of our club were running some excellent kit built stock the other day on the club layout which I really appreciated. On another track were some of the latest RTR offerings with all the DCC gismos,steam sound which to my ears sounded like spray cans. Almost everyone ignored the hand modelled stuff and obsessed over what must have been well over £1,000 worth of stock paraded before them. I must be a grumpy old man, but these latest models seem to me to be like expensive toys! I expect to really told off here for saying this! Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Expensive toys maybe but possibly less expensive than the total cost of kit + time spent on the other side. The hobby is changing but the time saved on not building that kit may be spent on other aspects of a layout. The kits are available for people to work with if they wish and long may that also continue but I think it's fair to say the hobby is generally de-skilling itself apart from notable exceptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_irl Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Part of the problem is IMO, the fact that rtr has gotten so good now that it has made some (many?) kits redundant as they just are not as crisp and detailed. I think there are many who would still appreciate a good looking kit loco, I do to a certain degree. I certainly enjoy building a card building rather than simply buying a plastic building for instance and I have tried my hand at a kit loco. while I do like the results I can also see in it that my skills are not good enough to make it truly perfect as I have seen some do and that's what is disappointing to me. I think (unfairly or not) that I see the same when looking at others kits also Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 This has long been a course of heavy debate amongst our circle of modellers. Both Jack and Andy Y make extremely valid points, but it seems to me that although the RTR offerings are now absoulutely fantastic, it's having a bit of a knock on effect in the long run. 30 years ago, if you wanted a fantastically detailed and scale model, you either kit built or scratch built - both of which require various specialist skills, e.g having enough dexterity to be able to assemble the kit, having the intelligence and procedural thoroughness to be able to follow a set of instructions through to a finished and completed project plus the usual little bobs,weaves and techniques all picked up through trial and error. The other option open to anyone was to ask someone like Derek Lawrence to scratchbuild you a rake of coaches ( but that was for the extremely wealthy, although the modelling of Derek would still compare to today's offerings and was well worth the expense ) Overall, this resulted in any kitbuilt and scratchbuilt items being usually unique, often very rare and made the person looking on very envious indeed, but did have the effect of inspiring many people to attempt scratch and kit building. Jump forward to the contemporary period, and there has never been such a plethora of RTR models that can be seen now. The offerings of Bachmann, Hornby, Graham Farish and other manufacturers such as Dapol and the latest offerings from DC kits are just phenomenal for the price that is being asked. £20 for a Mk1 Bachmann coach is a megre ammount considering the level of detail, is just one example. However, as fantastic as these models are, it has actually resulted in a kind of perverse and negative effect on the hobby as a known 'modelling' type of pastime. Nobody these days needs to spend an innordinate ammount of time, kit building a rake of Cambrain Kits BBA's, painting them, transfering them and then weathering them to a suitable condition to be able to run them on Runswick Leamside over 8 months, as I did, when you can, for a modest fee, truck off down to the model shop, buy twenty of them and have them on the layout ready weathered and running within the day! So, as good as it is to have such a variety available at one's fingertips, it has also bred a situation as Jack has highlighted above, where todays modeller has now been subject to ten years ( spoilt in a way ) of choice whereby a modellers collection of stock is now admired not for the ammount of kit/scratchbuilding that has gone into it, but for the ammount of bells and whistles that a loco can make and DCC gismos it has fitted. Personally, like Andy Y has said, it is the choice of the modeller should they want to build or buy, but the problem now is that companies such as Cambrian, have had virtually all their kits brought out in RTR format by one of the big manufacturers, therefore negating anyone needing to buy their product - which surely will put them out of business ultimately. Having spoken to Charlie at DC kits regularly, they also have been a victim of Bachmanns RTR DMU offerings, bringing out pretty much all of his range in RTR form. Whilst it is good that these companies are bringing out these fantastic models, it is also a cause for concern for the future, as todays modeller does not need to construct kits or do any scratchbuilding to get a more than passable loco, coach or wagon so all the skills that have been honed and refined by the excellent modellers that are today's leaders in the hobby are not needed to be passed on to the youngsters, because they already have the options outlined above. It is a very emotive argument this and I'm sure most people will have a viewpoint on this. I will look forward to reading posts from other modellers on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Interesting point about the de-skilling and I wonder waht the long term consequences will be on the exhibition circuit. I have an exhibition layout which has trailed around the circuit for years, I have noticed a lot of changes. There are a few very good young modellers on the scene, capable of excellent work, but they are in a minority now. There is only one in our club, the rest love the technology. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 De skilling is not just apparent in our hobby. I suspect those highly skilled senior modellers grew up with some form of training through an apprenticeship or college course on mechanical and/or electrical engineering. Sadly the loss of manufacturing industries means apprenticeships etc are much harder, if not impossible to find. Replace manufacturing with computer skills and some of the highly paid service industries and those that are successful, suddenly find they have disposable income to pay for the skills they lack. What this forum does bring to the party is encouragement to try these things and develop those skills. With a wide range of experienced modellers in every aspect of our hobby, help is only a post away, There is no doubt that building something yourself is far more rewarding than opening the latest must have RTR box, but it takes a few failures to develop those skills. With the difficulties in the current economy, I feel we will see more and more modellers trying to develop those skills. My fear is that the number of really skilled people are reducing as they pass from this world and once that knowledge and experience is lost, it is gone forever. My FiL was a highly skilled toolmaker and there was nothing he couldn't do with his lathe and a few good hand tools. Those skills came from having to make what you wanted as they just weren't available. You had to make them or go without. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backofanenvelope Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 However there are many other scales, locations and prototypes that can be modelled in both scratch and kit. As the market in OO/HO gets swamped what about 2mm 7mm etc. Not all doom and gloom.. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2011 Finding time to build kits/ scratchbuild models would be good. Finding money to buy RTR would also be good. Having neither is not so good. Perhaps one has to be a better off retired person to get the most out of railway modelling.......? (just a general observation, nothing personal intended ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Trouble is if you leave it until you retire you will find it very hard to acquire the skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hi Tom, Good point, but compare what is available in N gauge now, offered by both Bachmann owned Graham Farish and the superb items being produced by Dapol ( have you seen their latest 121 bubble car? Wow.... ) and thats coming from a dyed in the wool 4mm man! Also, Heljan and Bachmann to an extent are starting the first tender steps in 7MM RTR, something that as close as15 years ago wasn't even considered, so I can see 7mm stock being readily available before too long. Have you seen the work of Brian Daniels - he models in 7MM and is just unbelievable, which will further inspire modellers into 7MM, I know I've sorely been tempted by the JLTRT range..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The hobby is changing but the time saved on not building that kit may be spent on other aspects of a layout. But then you could save even more time by not building any of it. Personally, buying a model in a box does nothing for me. I am not even that keen on kits. The interest for me is in building things out of basic materials. If tomorrow someone were to announce a new line of super-detailed, ready to run, LNWR locos and rolling stock in 2mm FS I would still rather scratch-build my own. Having had nothing to do with the hobby for several years I was surprised by how much it appears to have become about buying stuff rather than making it and the way interest seems to have focussed on modelling present-day and very recent subjects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Time. It's the biggest killer to any hobby. People over the next decade in the hobby will be working longer hours, may have one or two jobs and generally won't find the time to kit build THAT particular locomotive or piece of rolling stock, nor the money to have bought and probably in most cases, built for them. But in the presence of some truly terrific RTR models (Hornby Thompson L1 springs to mind) I can see lots of shelf layouts, end to end and roundy rounds getting a lot of attention over the coming decade. And to be frank, I prefer it that way. I'm not going to lie, my skills are relatively lower than a good deal of the people on this site, and I prefer painting to building locomotives and rolling stock. More and more it'll be a case of concentrating on the scenery to make the excellent RTR trains fit in, and I'm all for that. Particularly if it means not using photographic backgrounds - my number one pet peeve at the minute, and I am sure there's a way around it... However it's all about the time. Never enough of it when building fleets of engines and rolling stock, now with the RTR at such a high quality, you can afford to find the time to focus on the railway itself. There's no right and wrong way to enjoying your hobby; but it is time and its passage that will change the way that we all invest in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCF stephen Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I find it very interesting that people are seeing the improvement of RTR as a problem. I appreciate that de-skilling of modellers may be an issue but surely the growth of the hobby as a whole is more healthy than to have a smaller number of people doing extremely complex work. I know that when I was 10 and getting into N gauge I knew that I could never achieve some of the results that other people had due to the lack of skill on my part. Nowadays it is possible to achieve those results in easier ways. For instance, the advent of computer technology has allowed improved signalling systems, CAD designed models, Photoshop designed card models as well as giving us cost savings and quality improvements for the rest of the hobby. Perhaps one skill area of the hobby (e.g. soldering brass kits etc) is making way for a new skill area which is computer based? In relation to the OP I would also state that the definition of toy can be found here and it has a pretty broad meaning. Although some of us probably do not consider our models toys I certainly consider mine to be just that (whether they be scratch built or ready to run). Perhaps I will be derided for that opinion but I have always considered them that and always will do into the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Where some skills wan, others rise.................. Just look at the superb scenic layouts we now see as a matter of course. Years ago we had lovely kit built stock running through dyed sawdust scenery and bottle brush trees (with a few notable exceptions). Now we have superb rtr running through realisitic scenery with sea foam and etched tree's, electrostatic grass, amazing water techniques etc etc etc. yes its changing but change is good sometimes isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 From my perspective it is changing, and in a direction that is all gain. My primary railway modelling interest is operation, and then the stock for the area of interest. So being able to buy good appropriate models RTR brings two advantages: more time for operation; more source material that can be used to build what is not available RTR in combination with kits and scratchbuilding. It is a time of plenty at present, the one concern is that as the interest in kits and specialty parts decline these will progressively go unavailable. I think one just has to recognise this as inevitable. [Tangent] The de-skilling already referred to in this thread is an adjunct of progress. I have a theoretical grasp of how to make a flint knife, spin wool or extract fibres from flax, and then get weaving, tan leather, create pottery,reduce metal ores to metal etc. but I sure as s**t would fall down on execution. We all live on top of a large heap of once essential and now forgotten, dead and buried skills: even the most craft skilled person living is still dependent on a large range of skills that he or she cannot execute. About fifteen years ago I had the fun of involvement in a project trying to extract copper from a good quality ore, using what are believed from the archaeological evidence to be the resources available to the metal worker of about 3,000BC. All I can say is that at least some of those guys were clearly very patient and skillful in using the materials they had available, because modern knowledge of the materials science was relatively little help toward getting a decent result. For there are the surviving ancient copper artefacts, and the metal is really good, high purity, inclusion free: it may well be that the surviving pieces represent the pinnacle of achievement of the day, nonetheless the evidence is clear, someone had the ability, at least some of the time. And that ability doesn't exist today, unless the operator has millions of quidsworth of serious industrial plant, yet we survive. [/Tangent] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2011 Thinking about this in a different way, would you want to be part of a hobby that did not develop and evolve? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Andy Y said : De-skilling itself and proud of it in some quarters when folk refer to those who build things as 'elite'. Hi Coachman, Interesting comment can you expand on it a bit please? I am not sure I quite understand it. Thanks. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Just got back from a week away (at Bridgenorth), I took with me 4 bound volumes of the Model Railway News from the 50's. Now there realy has been a change since then. One featured layout had 3 locos, 3 coaches and not many more wagons, the owner was looking forward to start building some more stock. Not many with a layout now can own up to having so little stock. Also in one of the volumes was a review of N C Keysers first loco kit 14/48xx, it had a rave review as did the next kit, which was the SR Terrier. 00 was in the minority and some of the 0 gauge layouts were clockwork!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfield_Park Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Kit building will remain for as long as models do not exist in r-t-r. If anybody wants to model a J27 for a NE region layout, or an N2 to run with the Gresley Subs they've got on order, then they'll have to build a kit. Unless the time comes where we have everything available in r-t-r, then fans of kit building, and those who make a living from it, need not worry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted October 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2011 [Tangent] The de-skilling already referred to in this thread is an adjunct of progress. I have a theoretical grasp of how to make a flint knife, spin wool or extract fibres from flax, and then get weaving, tan leather, create pottery,reduce metal ores to metal etc. but I sure as s**t would fall down on execution. We all live on top of a large heap of once essential and now forgotten, dead and buried skills: even the most craft skilled person living is still dependent on a large range of skills that he or she cannot execute. About fifteen years ago I had the fun of involvement in a project trying to extract copper from a good quality ore, using what are believed from the archaeological evidence to be the resources available to the metal worker of about 3,000BC. All I can say is that at least some of those guys were clearly very patient and skillful in using the materials they had available, because modern knowledge of the materials science was relatively little help toward getting a decent result. For there are the surviving ancient copper artefacts, and the metal is really good, high purity, inclusion free: it may well be that the surviving pieces represent the pinnacle of achievement of the day, nonetheless the evidence is clear, someone had the ability, at least some of the time. And that ability doesn't exist today, unless the operator has millions of quidsworth of serious industrial plant, yet we survive. [/Tangent] An interesting view, but not one I think I can agree with totally. I think it comes down to knowledge & as long as we have reference to how to build something or repair it, then if the worst came to the worst, we could reproduce it if we had to. As a society the methods used to make something might only be known to a small minority, but as long as a small group were able to pass on that information to be blindly copied by others - until we trained others. Take building modern aircraft - I know absolutely nothing about building them (I built plastic train kits & rarely plane ones), but I'd rather think we would be vastly ahead of the locals of 1900. who probably didn't think that it was even possible. We know that it is possible. Kevin Marinn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted October 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2011 One advantage of me having so few skills is that de-skilling isn't such an issue! An interesting thread though and for me the killer for 30 years or more has mostly been time and space. These days I have more time and am consequently experimenting with things I've never previously attempted, such as weathering. Mind you, I'm still trying to create a workspace so I can finish the K's 57xx I bought in 1972... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 BlackRat said it for me - time that was spent on stock is now spent on scenery. I find that I want to raise my standard of scenery to match the rise in the quality of RTR releases. There is a tendency for people to focus on a drop in kitbuilding and scratchbuilding as being a de-skilling of the hobby - we fail to see the rise in scenery standards as an up-skilling... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Job's Modelling Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Interesting discusion. But as with a lot of other things, for instance music, there are a lot of different ways to enjoy railway modelling. Some like computer operated layouts, others supurb build stock. Some like large layouts, others like micro layouts or dioramas. The most important for me is to enjoy railway modelling. I try to do it the best I can with the money I can spend on it and the possibilities I have. Like those hours of modelling, forgetting the daily troubles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The hobby IS changing. It's becoming too costly. And a lot of effort seems to be directed at collectors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Skills are acquired - they are not lost. You do not 'de-learn' how to ride a bicycle as a youngster, once the balance is achieved, it is never lost. The same applies to everything else in life. I think one of the issues is this inane bent for acquiring academic qualifications - there are a lot of talented youngsters pushed down this route who shouldn't be (for whatever the reason), and who are most probably better suited to a trade related apprenticeship. I think that owning a house (or flat) is a good basis for developing a lot of different skills (unless you have money to burn). If you have the basics in place, then it takes patience and effort to go forward. My teenage nipper sometimes thinks I'm loony when I do hexa-decimal calulations with pen and pencil - of coure, it is much easier using a calculator or PC based spreadsheet, but thereagain, without the basics in place and a lack of electricity, life would be more difficult... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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