Is the hobby changing?

[BigAndy]

There's one other point that I'd like to raise as it's in line with the OP.

 

Several years ago, I was having a chat with Nobby from Macclesfiedl club and we were discussing the skills that make up a modeller.

 

I've just remembered this discussion, after reading Combe Barton's post above. What sort of modeller is the average modeller?

 

Those that work individually at home need to posses all the skills of a joiner, an electrician and the myriad of skills required to kit/scratchbuild - those involve being able to follow a set of instructions, having the fortitude to seeing that project out and following it with close enough detail so as to be able to produce a quality finish.

 

All these skills, if you think about it are what the average employer would be looking at if hiring someone to do a job of work for them.

Nobby was saying that in America, if you disclose that you are a Railroad modeller, then you are classed as potential Chairman of the Board material, such is the recognotion of skills required in a modeller over there - however in this country, and it has largely to do with the way that the press portray the hobby, if you disclose that you are a railway modeller, people laugh at you and think you have a sub average IQ.

 

Not everyone has these skills, which is why clubs are formed. Each member brings his or her skills to the table and a club layout is then born - which is certainly how Runswick Leamside was made, you play to the teams strengths. made up of individual talents.

[Oldddudders]

Not everyone has these skills, which is why clubs are formed. Each member brings his or her skills to the table and a club layout is then born - which is certainly how Runswick Leamside was made, you play to the teams strengths. made up of individual talents.

ISTR Cyril Freezer making this point years ago. He instanced a hypothetical chap whose only interest was making 4mm Pullman table lamps - but that within a club environment, he would still add value to the more core skills brought by others, such that the club's Pullmans might be the best ever seen.

[bike2steam]

I hope some aren't implying that because I now prefer to buy and detail rtr instead of kit-build that I'm not skilled. Me a mechanical engineer by (past) trade, having set, and operated some machine tools larger than many people have ever seen, and even taught a certain heritage railway chief engineer how to operate a universal milling machine..

[coachmann]

As a bit of an aside I wonder whether scratch-builders feel that kit-builders take the easier, less skilled option?

This reminded me of an amusing incident several years ago. Many of you will have seen the 7mm ex LNWR Steam Railmotor that ran on the late David Jenkinson's layout. When the builder (I won't mention his name) handed it to me for painting, he said, " It nearly went through the window several times......... I'm not clever enough to build kits!!!". He is one of this countries top scratch builders!

[BlackRat]

Over the last year or so, I have built (mainly wagon or van kits) from Ratio, Parkside, Chivers and Cambrian.

 

Add a few David Geen butter vans in the mix as well.

 

All easy enough and straightforward although some did involve a bit of fettling (modelling?)

 

All run on Romfords in pinpoint bearings and have been sprayed and weathered. I use small tension locks as 3 links are now out of the question due to shakey hand syndrome due to a neck injury (hopefully the sawbones in the NHS will sort next year!).

 

Not a bad job BUT, the Bogie B doesn't look as good as the Hornby CCt's etc etc etc.

 

To me though, its basic bread and butter stuff but I wonder if we would be having the usual rtr v kit debate if for example Tamiya or Hasegawa made kits for British OO loco's etc.

 

OK, we do have some manufacturers producing the odd bits or, (in plastic) but they dont hold a candle to the quality of whats out there in the AFV world etc.

 

Is there a market?

 

What if Tamiya produced a 00 class 37, in plastic/etched brass etc with a combo of bits to make various examples of the prototype.

 

After all, for under £30 ish you can get a kit of a nice tank, a working model with a metal gear box and twin motors which really falls together.

 

To encourage 'modelling', you not only need a 'need to model' something but you also have to have a good basis from which to start and frankly with some of the kits I have built, I can see why people take the easy option and go for RTR.

 

Another good example ......... lorries, vans and buses etc.

 

Why would anyone pay £30 plus for a kit of dubious quality (I know I have built more than a few!) when for the cost of a couple of beers you can by and plonk a superb rendition from the likes of Oxford diecast etc.

 

Yes again, a little fettlin' is required and a touch of weathering, but again, out of the box, there's no comparison!

 

After all, TIME is something that NONE of us can make any more of, its constantly running out and to all of us its a limited resource!

[Guest Max Stafford]

One positive effect of the current changes I feel is the shift from focus on the locomotive to other parts of the railway, be it scenics, infrastructure or coaching stock in a way probably not seen since the P4 sect emerged from their dodgy backstreet clubs in Soho 40 years ago...

 

Dave.

[Jol Wilkinson]

ISTR Cyril Freezer making this point years ago. He instanced a hypothetical chap whose only interest was making 4mm Pullman table lamps - but that within a club environment, he would still add value to the more core skills brought by others, such that the club's Pullmans might be the best ever seen.

 

It can work in reverse though. I once visited a club and upon enquiring if anyone modelled in P4, one member said that he had done, but gave up in the face of the "opposition" he got.

 

I was also asked to run several workshops for the club which had some 40 or so members. The club committee selected the topics, including modelling with plastic kits, using an airbrush, etc. The most attendees we had was eight (usually the same members). After those, we didn't do any more through lack of interest.

 

So anyone joining that club isn't likely - unless things have changed - to get much in the way of inspiration or guidance.

[Coombe Barton]

Some the excellent modelmakers of the past made their own aids. I remember seeing Peter Denny's layout at ExpoEM - and there was a quiz of sorts to identify what came out of the box of 'gadgets'.

 

I had an excellent physics teacher at school , who sadly died very young - who demonstrated 'process' to me. He had a repetitive task to do, and worked out a sequence of doing things which involved banding, cutting andf drilling. Rather then doing it alkl o opne, he showed me how to divide the task into stages which made it quicker. He used jigs, even though it was a tool setting that he didn't need to set again once that bit of the job was done. Taught me a lot. He didn;;t ahve to demonstrate it twice. because we caught on ad developed our own 'processes'.

 

i find that I also am acquiring a set of jigs and gauges - maybe I;m turning into my dad!

[Coombe Barton]

So anyone joining that club isn't likely - unless things have changed - to get much in the way of inspiration or guidance.

But there's a helluvalot of both on here.

[Jol Wilkinson]

But there's a helluvalot of both on here.

 

But there is also a lot of "why bother, when RTR is so good", or "I don't have that skill".

 

There are reasons to bother if you want to make models that are outside of the usual and skills - as has often been said - can be acquired, if you want to.

[Andrew1974]

I recall a few years ago the thoughts were RTR was not very good and needed to get better. It has now got better and this is a cause for concern due to de-skilling....Just shows that no-one can ever win!

[Jamie]

I guess to counter the 'de-skilling' a successful sales pitch is necessary from those custodians of the 'dying' skills and knowledge. I'm unfamiliar with the model railway press - is there encouragement therein to entice modellers to go beyond the blue/red/black boxes? Is the case to take up these advanced techniques clear? I don't know.

 

From my own point of view I'm always keen to try new things. Sometimes it's possible to learn it blind but it's nice to read through a step-by-step example of something similar in the press, on the web, in a Society manual sheet or wherever just to take the fear of the unknown out of a new task.

[chriswright03]

I very seldom post in these type of threads but after reading it all again today would just like to add my little bit. I am wondering am I alone in finding these sort of threads divisive? Whilst I am sure that is not the intention of the OP or those posting it just comes across (to me) that 'some' tend to look down on others who don't possess their skill level and drive.

 

Yes without doubt the hobby has changed over the years. What hasn't? Is it for the better? Well that depends on your own view and circumstances. On the forum there is a huge divide between levels of 'modelling' and that in itself makes this place all the better. If we were all the same it would be a pretty dismal place maybe.

 

Yes some of you are skilled enough to be able to build from scratch something that you want that isn't available elsewhere. I am truly pleased for you BUT does that mean that those of us who are unable to do should not gain pleasure from opening a box and placing our new purchase on our track? Be that track that we have bought or made to whatever scale/gauge. See even that causes argument on here because some of us do not have sufficient knowledge/interest to tell the difference between scale and gauge.

 

Many threads on here could give the impression to newcomers looking in for the first time that 'modellers' are a snooty lot who will look down on you if your efforts do not come up to 'their' exacting standards. In reality every person who buys or has bought for them a trainset are a welcome addition to our number. Very often I have seen it posted that we are supposed to be modellers and buying a model of a train apparently does not mean that you are.

 

Perhaps we should remember that these are models of the real thing and whether we build them from bits of recycled cardboard cereal boxes or a kit made for the purpose or indeed buy one from a 'Boxshifter' we are part of a hobby that should help remove us from the pressures of our everyday life and help us relax and enjoy our time.

 

Just for the record I admire the work of those who have the skills to scratchbuild as I do those who buy stock and show it on a layout that they have had the vision and skill to build. I have limited skills but have managed to build the odd unfinished layout in the past from wooden baseboards to my current foamboard affair. I have managed to wire them for DCC and have in the past fitted decoders including sound. I do not have the skills' time or indeed desire to alter my locos purchased from 'Boxshifters' to fit extra fine rills steps and whathaveyou. I will plonk these locos on my layout of a TMD and enjoy playing with them and listening to them because that is what 'I' want to do. I don't consider myself as wanting to show off my locos and show how much stock/money/lack of style/common sense I have it is merely for my enjoyment.

 

This is not meant to come across as a rant and I apologise if it does. It is merely meant to show that some of us are quite happy with the way we do things and I for one sometimes think that we can come across as a hobby as being a bit anal. Feel free to argue I won't be upset.

 

Oh and before I go I have put the word 'Boxshifters' in inverted commas because some see it almost a s a dirty word. I would buy my locos from my local shop if I could but he does not stock them nor is able to and I have asked him. So I purchase from where I can and if that puts me further down the food chain so be it.

 

Chris

[Guest Natalie Graham]

Apparently so.

 

No, not at all. It isn't a matter of what is easier or more skilled. Just that the interest for me is in making small things out of raw materials. The point for me is not ending up with a model of a particular item but in enjoying the process of making it. Plus, if I build something from scratch it goes together in a way that suits my modelling approach rather than how someone else thinks it should go together.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

 

 

Another thing that has also changed over the years is the quality of the kits on the market. Although many whitermetal kits are still produced - some of them very good - the etched kits now available provide a much better starting point for those who want to model a particular railway/location/period. So perhaps the gap for those wishing to make a particular model from a kit is not so. The only way to find out is to have a go, but unfortunately the "RTR is so good" attitude is used as an excuse not to make an attempt.

 

 

I wonder though, whether this has in part led to the move from kit building. The old whitemetal kits were pretty basic, could be glued together if you weren't adept at soldering and often used a rtr chassis*. Even so, once completed, they were a step up from the rtr models of their day. They provided some variety on a layout without being too demanding in terms of required skill. Etched kits, from their inception, have had a reputation of being more difficult and requiring a greater degree of skill and ability to build successfully.

 

*That is another way in which the hobby has changed: Years ago people would buy a rtr model and build a new body kit for the chassis. Now people buy new chassis kits to go under the rtr body.

[Coombe Barton]

Or is it a general philosophy when seeing something, the difference between

 

• I like that - I'll make one of those
  
• I like that - I'll buy one of those.
  

But there's the sub arguments:

• I like that - I'd like to make one of those if I knew how
  
• I like that - I'll buy one of those but I don't have the money.
  

 

Either of these can lead to upskilling.

 

There is a BUT:

• If the person is prepared to make mistakes
  
• And continue despite those mistakes.
  

[BlackRat]

Chris very well put indeed!

 

And as for 'acquiring skills'., well that applies to anything in life, we just have to accept our own limitations.

 

Apply the same for anything else, my own including distance running, I run a sub 1:50 half marathon and despite mega training I know I will NEVER get under 1:30, but it doesn't stop me either doing it or enjoying it and I'm certainly not jealous of those that run sub 1:30's or even better.

 

I can apply the same to shooting, martial arts, water colour painting, birdwatching, PC's, advanced driving, and numerous other things.

 

They just have the knack

 

That doesn't take away the huge pleasure of participating or being part of it. (Or trying to improve and get better.)

 

As an aside, I have many modellers who are regarded as being the tops, the 'elite' if you like, from Martyn Welch to Tony Reynolds, Barry Norman to Tony Wright.

 

They probably wont even remember me or our conversations (apart from Welchy) but too a man they were free with their time, advice, help and support and were in no way what I would describe as elitist in any way shape or form.

 

They are a credit to the hobby.

 

There are others who I have met, who consider themselves to be a bit of a cut above and I can only describe them as being complete and utter t*ssers!

 

Still (hopefully) there's room for us all, I just wouldn't want to be on a desert island with them

[burgundy]

 

But there is also a lot of "why bother, when RTR is so good", or "I don't have that skill".

 

There are reasons to bother if you want to make models that are outside of the usual and skills - as has often been said - can be acquired, if you want to.

 

I have been trying for some time to improve my basic skills in metalworking (cutting, soldering, cleaning,etc. - all the stuff that you need to build an etched kit). As far as I have been able to find, there is no evening class or other adult education in the area that offers "metalwork" in any form - other than jewelry making (on the other hand my search did discover a course for "making a purse/wallet from tyre inner tubes"). I live near Bristol, which is a city with a pretty reasonable manufacturing tradition (RR, Airbus to name a couple) and I find it hard to believe that nothing of this kind is available. I have also checked out the U3A for the area.

Am I looking for the wrong course title? Is this kind of course really extinct? If it is, is that cause or effect?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Best wishes

Eric

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I wonder if it's not the hobby that's particularly changing, but the aspirations of those partaking in it?

 

Regards,

Peter

[coachmann]

To try to put things into perspective, there were only only railway modellers at one time (1950s/ 60s). They attended exhibitions and a very few exhibited their handywork. Hornby Dublo and Triang in those days were in the toy business and their models were of little use to modellers.

 

When K's first introduced thier whitemetal loco kits they were before their time, but when whitemetal bodyline kits became available in the early 1960s to fit on Triang and Hornby Dublo chassis it was a different matter and modellers took up soldering skills in the knowledge they didn't have chassis to worry about. For the first time, the proprietory manufacturers had something railway modellers wanted!

 

Seeing as Triang chassis needed to have brass bushes put into the axle holes to take Romford 1/8" diameter driving axles, and wheels had to be drilled and tapped 12 BA for coupling rod screws, modellers picked up more skills and learned about chassis. By the late 1960s kit manufacturers were offering chassis kits and so the kit market was established for the next 30 years with whitemetal and etched brass kits of every description on offer.

 

It wasn't until the advent of the likes of Bachmann in the 1980s that modellers started to see proprietory locos as useful for their layouts, while Triang-Hornby continued to produce toys. I certainly appreciate todays proprietory products from locos to rolling stock to buildings.

 

As for the perception that those who build models look down on those that open boxes, it is a two-sided coin. Are those who buy all their needs off the shelf and suffer from a kind of inverted snobbery by referring to builders as elitist and snobs any better or worse?

 

I would like to think we are all modellers and can learn from each other no matter which route is taken.

[Steve B]

Don't know about on your side of the pond, but over here, it's not just the knowledge that is missing. If I want specialised tools or parts, I have two choices- wait until the next major train show, or mailorder them. The local hobby shops don't carry many modelling tools anymore, and they don't carry the switches, wiring, etc., except for the very basics. There seems to be a real effort to stop people repairing or building from scratch and force them into RTR, or very simple kits.

 

Steve

[edcayton]

 

 

*That is another way in which the hobby has changed: Years ago people would buy a rtr model and build a new body kit for the chassis. Now people buy new chassis kits to go under the rtr body.

 

Yes, that is ironic isn't it?

 

Something I have not seen on here is the matter of cost. Although rtr 00 loco's are approaching £200 now I suspect a kit would end up costing rather a lot more.

And how many times have we seen a loco for sale on a stand at a show with a notice proudly proclaiming "kit built" and a huge price tag for a badly painted and badly put together pile of cr*p?

 

Ed

[Webbo]

Bob Dylan was right, way back in 1964.

I have read this article with interest, and can I have my 2p worth?

 

The hobby is changing, in some cases for the better but in others it is not so good. The more super detailed rtr there is will slowly kill the kit market. Once that happens it will be back to scratchbuilding for a lot of people.

 

With regard to the computer generation, and the computer generated side of the hobby, the computer will never take the place of a hammer, chisel, screwdriver, soldering iron and all the other tools needed for the basic skills to build a representation of a railway scene, be it a fictional or factual place.

 

Back in the bad old days when I was at school we had machine and woodworking workshops where we learned different skills to carry forward to adult life. This doesn’t happen anymore simply because a good many schools are more concerned with computerisation. The H&SE also have put so much pressure on the schools that they dare not allow any child near to any machinary or any other equipment.

 

As an 0gauge modeller, the gauge has moved from having to scratchbuild or have built any particular loco, wagons and coaches we needed, to an array of kit builds and now rtr, (we still have to scratch certain things though). The trackwork has gone from the old tinplate coarse to true scale 7mm. This has happened over a time span of 50-60 years. At the moment (to quote Harold Macmillan) we have never had it so good, and it looks to be getting better. The proposed new rtr and especially the new kits that will be on the market soon is nothing more than a fantastic boost to the modeller.

 

The same applies to the other scales, even more to 00 and N, (but in these 2 scales it is rtr).

 

The scenic side of the hobby is going from strength to strength.

 

Improvement in all aspects of the modelling industry is moving forward with better detailing all round.

 

No matter what has been said in this thread, it is the individual modeller's decision as to what he/she wants out of the hobby.

 

webbo

[Coombe Barton]

So we're looking for expertise. That comes from experts. Experts can be one of many things:

• People who make good models (whether from a RTR, kit or scratchbuilding basis, and say "this is the way I did it".
  
• People who have made more mistakes than anyone else and say "this is the way I did it eventually" or "this is the way I should ahve done it".
  
• Peolpe who demonstrate what a good job they do and are prepared to share that skill (and this includes all the demonstratoprs I've met at exhibitioons)
  
• People who have taken the time to learn how to do something properly.
  

But overall this encompasses:

• "This is what I've done - follow me if you want to."
  

There's a lot of these around. Whether they're a vanishing breed I don't know. All I can say is that in my 20 years away from the hobby there are a load more AVAILABLE experts via shows and the web. They're not now just confined to magazines. They now have a much bigger showcase. So I don't think we're needing to be that worried over the future.

[Guest jim s-w]

 

Yes some of you are skilled enough to be able to build from scratch something that you want that isn't available elsewhere. I am truly pleased for you BUT does that mean that those of us who are unable to do should not gain pleasure from opening a box and placing our new purchase on our track? Be that track that we have bought or made to whatever scale/gauge. See even that causes argument on here because some of us do not have sufficient knowledge/interest to tell the difference between scale and gauge.

 

Many threads on here could give the impression to newcomers looking in for the first time that 'modellers' are a snooty lot who will look down on you if your efforts do not come up to 'their' exacting standards. In reality every person who buys or has bought for them a trainset are a welcome addition to our number. Very often I have seen it posted that we are supposed to be modellers and buying a model of a train apparently does not mean that you are.

 

 

Hi Chris

 

I think theres a distinction between someone using RTR stuff and someone who is unwilling to learn. The example earlier of someone unwilling to learn how to re-solder 2 wires and preffering to buy a new chassis is a good one. I started my own project knowing full well I couldnt do it. There was much I would need to learn along the way and that is only the stuff I knew I didnt know!

 

How many times have we seen comments along the lines of 'I am desperate for the new Bachmann BBA wagon as I need them for my steel factory based layout' and people moaning how they are annoyed its late when a simple kit is already available for the exact same thing. Desperate yes but not desperate enough to get of their backside and build the kit.

 

No one beomoans the person who is happy running just RTR stock and RTP buildings but there are some that want it all handed to them on a plate. Things dont work like that I am afraid.

 

Cheers

 

Jim