RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's another tool to aid us, not really a big thing as you still rely on the original design. The original design is always going to be the strong/weak point. Think of it as a new saw for the toolbox. It doesn't bring model making to the masses only to the skilled Undoubtedly true - but the result doesn't need as much skill, perhaps, to turn it into something fit for the layout, which is where the white-metal and brass kit manufacturers have always found their markets to be limited. We have a link to Bill Bedford's new idea above, and I can see limited edition steam and diesel bodyshells being available at "affordable" prices - with the certainty that, being mounted on an RTR chassis, they will perform well. A new sort of kit industry may be about to emerge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The same with 3D printing. If the day comes when I can have an LD&ECR 0-4-4T printed up in a few seconds from a drawing and a photo fed into a computer, will I spend months scratchbuilding one? When that happy day dawns, I hope I can afford to buy a 7mm scale print. I shall not spend hours wrestling with my conscience over using new technology, because I'm sure that if Mr J G Robinson was alive today he'd be using all the latest technology to build real engines, let alone model ones. However, I shall still need someone to tell me what the correct GC livery was (as I'm pretty sure it's some kind of weird GC/LDEC hybrid) and I'll still have to save pennies in a box to get someone who knows one end of a brush from the other to paint it for me. I suspect the cost will still come in cheaper than having one build from bare metal by a craftsman, and it will certainly be infinitely superior to anything I could hope to build from scratch if I had two lifetimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Undoubtedly true - but the result doesn't need as much skill, perhaps, to turn it into something fit for the layout, which is where the white-metal and brass kit manufacturers have always found their markets to be limited. We have a link to Bill Bedford's new idea above, and I can see limited edition steam and diesel bodyshells being available at "affordable" prices - with the certainty that, being mounted on an RTR chassis, they will perform well. A new sort of kit industry may be about to emerge. Codename: Industrial Saddletank My take on the proceedings. Still at the CAD stage but further along than I've recorded on RMweb currently. Needs a bit more work, a few more test bodyshells to refine and possibly a change in the plastic type, but I'm confident it will work as a "proof of concept". Ultimately I want to refine my skills so I can make my own models as 3D prints for my layout, instead of my bodging with filler and plasticard (which never comes out like I want it to). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Like everything, of course the hobby has changed. For me the biggest thing is that there is little need for my particular skill which is (was ?) detailing ready to run models. I used to spend hours in the evening merrily adding details to locos, coaches etc. I did among others Triang M7s and Battle of Britains, H/D West Country & 2-6-4T. Now I sit and - they're all available ready to run and better than mine. It used to be a case of the journey is better then the destination but not now. What worries me, though, is that there is in some places a widening gap, just like society itself perhaps, between the haves and the have nots. So many of the layouts currnely on the exhibition circuit use the new, superb, ready to run models. I don't exhibit that often but I have had comments on why do I use detailed Tri-ang, Hornby or Lima Mark1 coaches or an Airfix/Hornby chassis 4MT 2-6-0 rather than the Bachmann. It's simple - I can't afford the new stock. As it happens I like my old locos and coaches and will continue to run them even if the time comes when I can afford new ones. Those of us who model from the past are in the nostalgia game so what's wrong with being nostalgic about our models too ? I worry, though that exhibition managers of the future may think they're not good enough. That suggests the creation of an elite and I hate politics with a passion so I'll end there. Good on you! I have been on the exhibtion circuit for thirty years now. I have yet to meet an exhibition manager that wants an "out of the box" layout. On the contrary they are increasingly looking for something different. The paying public want to see something original and well modelled, not something they can buy in the shop. However, I am talking about exhibition modelling which is a different ball game from enjoying the hobby at home or at a club. RTR has enabled some to have quality but it is at a price and I do really agree with Middlesea John, it does exclude many people. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's another tool to aid us, not really a big thing as you still rely on the original design. The original design is always going to be the strong/weak point. Agreed. Think of it as a new saw for the toolbox. It doesn't bring model making to the masses only to the skilled Think of a new business model. What if people sold the CAD/CAM specification data suitable for a 3D moulding/milling machine for a range of prototypes? Then anyone could purchase, download and mill a result. Assembly, painting, weathering would still be required. So some "modelling" is required, but the effort to produce diagrams is probably less than the effort required to produce either kits, commissioned or production RTR models. It could be revolutionary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I get a bit annoyed buy the patronising, "it's within everybody's pocket" because no - it isn't. ...if you haven't got a job, then well over £100 for a new loco or £150 for a rake of coaches and getting on for that secondhand or on Ebay is quite out of the question. Where there are people who say "it's within everybody's pocket", I would agree with you, it would be annoying, patronizing and wrong. Locomotives that cost well over £100 are certainly not affordable for everyone. I'm sure I could do the maths and compare the proportion of the cost of a loco or a rake of coaches to the national average wage now and at various times in the past. From my observations here on RMweb lots of people have done the maths and found that today's prices adjusted to the average wage track well if not favourably, compared with the 'good old days'. It is and has always been an expensive hobby if you want to purchase the latest and greatest products. It is certainly a lot easier to enjoy the products that are available for this hobby if you have some disposable income. I think the consensus of people here is that any effort applied to improve the look of your stock is worthy. I certainly don't feel like there is a sense of elitism amongst people who are fortunate enough to afford shiny new products simply because they happen to have the funds to do so. I hope you continue to enjoy the models you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 From my observations here on RMweb lots of people have done the maths and found that today's prices adjusted to the average wage track well if not favourably, compared with the 'good old days'. It is and has always been an expensive hobby if you want to purchase the latest and greatest products. Absolutely. I've said this before, and I'll keep on saying it until I do eventually get tired of banging my head against the wall, but there is just no need for anyone to be excluded from buying latest generation models, although I would accept that the choices may be more limited on a budget. That said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with hanging onto older ones that have been worked on either. One strategy is to not buy so many of them - the old 'one decent loco is better than two mediocre ones' argument. Another is to buy sensibly secondhand - my local shop (which I'm sure John is familiar with) almost always has a modest selection of current-generation RTR locos for around £40-50; in the last year I've seen Standard 4s, Fairburn tank, a Super D and Black 5s amongst others, and very recently I got a Bachy Deltic for £35. At that price, it had etched plates glued on a bit messily, but there was also a nigh-perfect one for £45. Another recent purchase for a mate was a Heljan 26 - brand new, last release before the current 26/0s, for £42 from Hattons. A year or so ago, overstocks of first release Bachy 47s were available for less than 40 quid. At Lincoln swapmeet the weekend before last (another venue with a good selection and reasonable prices), my jaw almost dropped at a pair of new boxed Hornby ex-Airfix 14xx at £21 (yes, twenty one). I could go on, and on, and on, but I defy anybody to say these are not significant savings from current stuff at RRP, or even discounted prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I can see limited edition steam and diesel bodyshells being available at "affordable" prices - with the certainty that, being mounted on an RTR chassis, they will perform well. A new sort of kit industry may be about to emerge. Exactly the same as silver fox did with resin a decade or so ago? I am sure people will do this but its not new and with increasing numbers of people unwilling to even renumber RTR stuff I dont think the market is going to change the world TBH. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Then anyone could purchase, download and mill a result. Assembly, painting, weathering would still be required. So some "modelling" is required, but the effort to produce diagrams is probably less than the effort required to produce either kits, commissioned or production RTR models. It could be revolutionary. It could but in 2 ways The negative one is people pirate the files and its not worth anyone doing it in the first place. The kit market could be wiped out overnight! If something is too easy to do then its too easy to steal. There are serious ownership issues to be addressed. The positive is that kits would never die and could be passed from one owner to the next with no real set up charge (I guess we are all assuming the software, printer and materials are free/cheap) Kits could effective live. With the Ozexpatriate original or the Jim S-W modified version being available. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I get a bit annoyed buy the patronising, "it's within everybody's pocket" because no - it isn't. I'm not really sure if there is a large body of people going around saying that? I can't afford £750 O gauge steam locos, but others can and I don't think they should stop producing them or lower the prices just because I can't. As Pennine touched upon, it's about modelling within one's means. I am very, very tired of the 'I can't afford it therefore it's wrong' comments towards pricing. There are a million things in the World that I can afford and a million things I can't - I tend to concentrate on the things I can. As it happens John, if you take an older loco or coach and detail it up, I guarantee you that it will impress me more than someone plonking their latest RTR purchase onto the track. I'd also guarantee that the majority of people on here would feel the same way... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Codename: Industrial Saddletank I think you need to work on your codenaming... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Oh dear. I wasn't suggesting that somehow the people who dont 'model' are somehow lesser I was using it as an example of how model railway enthusiasts differ from say military of sci-fi modellers. Its great that so many people from so many walks of life with such varied skills can come together under one big umbrella and in no way is it a measure of fun to be had. I stand by my comments regarding modelling v collecting though. Degrees to which modelling applies of course is a point of debate. The scenery is very much modelling and you can I suppose run rtr locos and stock untouched through your 'modelled' scenery if you like but you havent 'modelled' the train IMO if you do that. Even if ypu just weather it then you've modelled because you have put your work into it. Straight from the box no. As I said the modern RTR stuff is great but I would still never let one straight fron the box onto my nickle silvers. The comment regarding building baseboards etc also doesnt back up modelling as that is carpentry. I wouldnt say I made a model of a lady when all I did was build a display cabinet and bought a model lady to put in it. The point I was making was that I feel more people seem to be doing less modelling in the traditional sense now that rtr is so good and focus is shifting towards bells and whistles rather than personally detailed and finished layouts and stock. As someone said earlier its the journey thats fun not the destination. Some people sadly are missing that. Quick fixes soon tire. But something you have put your soul into lives on. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. Im not suggesting that anyone has to scratchbuild anything, and why would you unless its unavailable, just do something to make it your own. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you lay a big oval of set track on a board, put unmodified buildings round the outside and run rtr locos and stock and then lie naked in the middle of it, adopting different poses as someone takes photos. Does that count as modelling? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted November 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2011 The comment regarding building baseboards etc also doesnt back up modelling as that is carpentry. For me the carpentry is a major part of the hobby. I've just completed a one year project in building my model railway shed including building an inner framework to take insulation, putting up plasterboard, taping & joining, then painting. I have now, in the past few days just reached the point where I can start to re-erect my model railway from my previous address. I’ve enjoyed the building work, and I know I will enjoy the remaining carpentry. All part of the hobby for me, and not one train (out of the box or otherwise) has yet moved on any track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 For me the carpentry is a major part of the hobby. I've just completed a one year project in building my model railway shed including building an inner framework to take insulation, putting up plasterboard, taping & joining, then painting. I have now, in the past few days just reached the point where I can start to re-erect my model railway from my previous address. I’ve enjoyed the building work, and I know I will enjoy the remaining carpentry. All part of the hobby for me, and not one train (out of the box or otherwise) has yet moved on any track. I never said it wasnt part of the hobby it is an essential part and very skilled. What I said was it isnt modelling, same way as tying your boots up before a match isnt footballing. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you lay a big oval of set track on a board, put unmodified buildings round the outside and run rtr locos and stock and then lie naked in the middle of it, adopting different poses as someone takes photos. Does that count as modelling? "And the trophy for most popular exhibit at the Coventry Exhibition goes to 'Godiva Junction'..." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you lay a big oval of set track on a board, put unmodified buildings round the outside and run rtr locos and stock and then lie naked in the middle of it, adopting different poses as someone takes photos. Does that count as modelling? I'm not sure there's a wrong answer to that..or do I mean a right answer? Or a clean one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you lay a big oval of set track on a board, put unmodified buildings round the outside and run rtr locos and stock and then lie naked in the middle of it, adopting different poses as someone takes photos. Does that count as modelling? Will this feature in MI3? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Oh dear. I wasn't suggesting that somehow the people who dont 'model' are somehow lesser I was using it as an example of how model railway enthusiasts differ from say military of sci-fi modellers. ... The comment regarding building baseboards etc also doesnt back up modelling as that is carpentry. That point (my bold) was understood Cav, and very valid. In fact there wasnt very much in your post that I didnt agree with. But you did say this: However there are railway 'modellers' who will happily buy rtr and run it all day untouched. These are collectors. Obviously this is all embroiled in folks' personal definitions (and that, as I said, is usually where the bother starts), but I'd still contend that a) however intended, it was a potentially divisive statement and b ) that most would feel that a bloke who runs RTR on boards he made and wired himself is not simply a 'collector'. My point really was 'why label him as anything', it only leads to bad feeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Oh dear sorry this is turning into a discussion as to who is a modeller and who isn't. I have to say that I entirely agree with everything RBE says really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWalsh Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you lay a big oval of set track on a board, put unmodified buildings round the outside and run rtr locos and stock and then lie naked in the middle of it, adopting different poses as someone takes photos. Does that count as modelling? I suppose it would depend on who is getting naked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Oh dear sorry this is turning into a discussion as to who is a modeller and who isn't. And such is the inevitable nadir of this thread, and similar threads that went before it. It seems to be an elemental human tendency to put a label on everything, even down to graduations of ability or interest in different nuances of what is in itself a niche hobby - all catalogued, skewered and labeled like etymological specimens in a display case. I once responded to a similar thread with words I quickly regretted posting and I'm second guessing this post too. Nevertheless, I think Andy Y said what I want to reiterate earlier. I don't think any of us believes we know all there is to know. We are here because we want to learn, share and be inspired by the efforts of others. Me? I know very little. I'm a model railway enthusiast and I enjoy RMweb for what I can learn from others. Thank you all for what I am able to learn, and perhaps one day, share with you all. And thank you Natalie for lightening things up a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted November 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2011 Will this feature in MI3? Does a virtual magazine have a Centrefold?..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Does a virtual magazine have a Centrefold?..... Perhaps on page three? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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