RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 25, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2011 Agreed Paul, I think there is too much artificial focus on the 'young' tail of the demographic curve and an assumption that that is the only entry point. Simple really when you think about it - who is most likely to have the disposable income, and the space, and possibly (but not always) the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 25, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2011 Computer skills can be really useful. There are many who find it easier to produce the computer fill to get parts etched out rather than cut them out. The result can easily be better fitting parts easier to produce more models and share them with other. It looks as those servos will become better point motors. When 3D printing takes off those with the skills will be producing all sorts of things. Its those who moan that the trade is not producing what they want who get me. It doesn't have to be the same skills but its using the skills you have and aquiring those you need that counts. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2011 There were plenty of young people at Model Rail Live, so the potential is still there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2011 40/50 something, kids & mortgage out of the way. Out of the way?! Kids and mortgaged up the eyeballs more like for most of us in our 40s these days alas!! But I dare say there are a fair few others around like me who've returned to the hobby in our 'mid-life' - in my case a yearning for reliving the past, albeit in model form. I'm looking forward to the time when I have a bit more time on my hands - whenever that will be?! - and perhaps a bit more of the mortgage paid off (unless I need more room for the layout and have to extend...). cheers, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karabuni Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 From Cambrian Models: Interesting topic. While some of our kits now have RTR equivalents, it is nothing like "virtually all" stated on the first page. It's something like 15 out of our range of about 80 kits. All those RTR models relate to kits that have been available from us for 15 years or more, so we've had pretty good sales of these in the past (around 15,000 kits on the "OBA" underframe). Even before there was much suggestion that RTR models might become available, sales of "modern image" kits had dropped of. It seems as though the younger modellers that bought kits in the past, are now older modellers, and there aren't as many younger kit builders replacing them. There are plenty of prototypes to do which will probably never be available as RTR, but will still sell in sufficient numbers as kits. The "policy" referred to earlier is pretty much what our kit choice depends on, although if I think it would be nice if there was a kit for a prototype, it may get into our range (see SECR twin bolster below) We do also have a 16mm range of fittings, and we manufacture in various other scales (2mm, N, HOm, HO and 7mm) for other people, so we're not totally reliant on 4mm kits. Here's a rake of Berg's NSW HUB cars assembled from kits made by us: Those Aussies must have deep pockets! (The loco isn't included) Coming up next year: SECR 5 plank, SECR twin bolster, SR "Bulleid" 5 plank etc. More imminent: BR Sturgeon, Cambrian Railways 2 plank dropside (might also be a 4 plank) - and I don't foresee an RTR version of that. There are images of these on our website. There should be some non-SR kits as well. Barry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 My take on the OP is that yes I do think that the hobby is changing. I started in this game when I was a young teenager and back then it was all about the modelling. There was no DCC bells and whistles to worry about. Now Ive run Outon Road with both sound and no sound and actually the youngsters enjoy it as much both ways, however there has been occasion where some have moved on with comment of ' aww theres no sounds on that one'. Tbh the model railway world is a little unique in the modelling world. Its not always about modelling. If you take military or sci-fi its all about modelling we're modellers, I can never imagine a serious military modeller buying a ready to plant challenger tank or a sci-fi type simply walking out of a shop with a ready built and (poorly) weathered starship enterprise. Its about creating something, an art really. However there are railway 'modellers' who will happily buy rtr and run it all day untouched. These are collectors. Unless you take time to learn the skills and practice them youre not a modeller. Buying a picasso masterpiece and hanging it on your wall doesnt make you an artist and driving an unmodified rtr loco round a layout of rtp buildings doesnt make you a modeller. I think its a shame the skills are being lost by the next generation of model railway enthusiasts. The level of intetest in proper modelling on sites such as this and modelling tips asked of me at shows from the younger clientell is very encouraging. I cant dispute the latest rtr offerings but there is no excuse to leave it alone when there are so many prototype variations to try to portray by a little extra work. The ViTrains 47 being a prime example. I have made it known that I think its the most accurate shaped 47 to date and stand by that. I rather feel that the biggest critism of the loco on release was that it had the details suppied seperately and had to be fitted by the 'modeller' sadly reflects what the hobby is becoming. Heaven forbid we actually gave to model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 RBE in this reply does sum this thread up very neatly. You can't be a railway modeller if you don't make or work on anything, you are a collector. Nothing wrong in that of course, but in a model railway club context it can be divisive. I have cetainly noticed the change in the magazines which now have large sections devoted to reviews, they read like consumer mags in many ways. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Vader Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 An interesting thread with many diverse views Yes the hobby is changing and it always will. Each person who has contributed to this thread has done so based on their own personnel opinion, nothing wrong with that. We are all different and as long as the end result is that we are enjoying this great hobby what does it matter. I had an interesting conversation the other day. An older friend models O gauge and scratch builds everything, another younger friend buys everything ready made. When the older one asked the younger one why they did not scratch build the younger one said he did not have the skills. The younger one then asked the older one why he had not gone DCC with sound and the older one replied that he did not have the skills. Yet both agreed that they were enjoying the hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I suppose the hobby has changed, and must continue changing in order to survive. I am old enough to remember when one gazed in awe at the work of guys like Ross Pochin. Most people managed with Hornby Dublo, which the slightly more skilled upgraded. The next step up the ladder was the build 'bodyline' white metal kits which ran on whichever proprietary chassis was reasonably approximate, even if the wheel profile was as coarse as a very coarse thing. Jamieson kits were state-of-the-art, and also the next thing to scratch building. Only the elite dared tackle them. The hobby has come a long way since then. I think it worth saying that no one is born with skills. One either acquires them through practice or is taught them. There are fewer people now who are wizards with lathes, drilling machines and other machine tools, and so learning these skills is not something everyone is able to do. In addition, the RTR 00 stuff is pretty ace; unless you're really discerning or want to move to another scale there's not the same incentive to scratch or kit build as there once was. This is starting to become the case in 7mm scale. I suspect you could build a pretty nice GW/BR (W) branch terminus in 7mm with all RTR stock, some RTR buildings and a few simple kits. This would have been unthinkable even 5 years ago. As to the range of kits, in 7mm it's simply amazing. I got shot down in flames a while back for suggesting the new 3D technology could revolutionise the hobby. However, I still think it can, on the grounds it's likely to be cheaper to employ someone to work a CAD programme than to build a hand-built model. So I think people who want to will still be able to model the unusual and the unpopular. It's just they'll go about making their models in a different way. For myself, I am currently working out how to scratch build my first wagon in wood! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted October 31, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 31, 2011 However there are railway 'modellers' who will happily buy rtr and run it all day untouched. These are collectors. Unless you take time to learn the skills and practice them youre not a modeller. Buying a picasso masterpiece and hanging it on your wall doesnt make you an artist and driving an unmodified rtr loco round a layout of rtp buildings doesnt make you a modeller. Guilty as charged, m'lud. I am not a railway modeller, I just enjoy fiddling about with bits of model railways which I buy. My capentry and electrics are just about good enough to produce a baseboard and a control panel, but I can't paint a wall to the management's satisfaction so I'm not about to ruin my models by trying to weather them (anyway I like clean engines). And my hands shake soldering a feed wire to a bit of track, so I'm not going to start butchering rolling stock because some dumb manufacturer used the wrong model of vacuum pump. But please, please, can I still come on RMWeb: for more hints and tips on doing the bits I do do, better; to be awed (though not inspired 'cos I know my limits) by the work of the real railway modellers; and to be amused (and just occasionally annoyed) by the debates in this section? P.S. I've just returned to the hobby aged 60, so don't blame my schooling - I was dreadful at anything requiring me to use my hands then too. P.P.S. I'm not a collector - I do open the boxes and run things!! A Railway Fiddler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted October 31, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2011 Agreed Paul, I think there is too much artificial focus on the 'young' tail of the demographic curve and an assumption that that is the only entry point. Some hobbies, and indeed sports, are mainly taken up by older people, and so long as there are older people, then the hobby will thrive. Perhaps Model Railways is becoming one such hobby. Edit for typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I thought this would start raising hackles once folk started to define what a 'modeller' was You can't be a railway modeller if you don't make or work on anything, you are a collector. OK, so what about Chimer? He makes things - he's made a baseboard and wired a control panel. That's creativity in its broadest sense, he's used craft skills to do it - skills which (whilst they have other applications), are undeniably part of the 'railway modelling' hobby - and moreover, he wants to improve himself and do his best. Is it really fair to label him like this? Guilty as charged, m'lud. I am not a railway modeller, I just enjoy fiddling about with bits of model railways which I buy. My capentry and electrics are just about good enough to produce a baseboard and a control panel, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I got shot down in flames a while back for suggesting the new 3D technology could revolutionise the hobby. I'm sorry, but whoever tried to shoot you down with that claim was blatantly wrong, the emerging 3D technology is going to revolutionise many things, including model railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 But please, please, can I still come on RMWeb: Of course, I like your style. There isn't a single modeller in the hobby who's an expert on everything and if you ever meet one who says they are - trust nothing else that they say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 OK, so what about Chimer? He makes things - he's made a baseboard and wired a control panel. That's creativity in its broadest sense, he's used craft skills to do it - skills which (whilst they have other applications), are undeniably part of the 'railway modelling' hobby - and moreover, he wants to improve himself and do his best. Is it really fair to label him like this? He might not be a modeller (by his own admission) but he is still a model railway enthusiast. Not that it matters either way, I hope he doesn't think less of the way he enjoys his hobby because some faceless name on here (which is what we all are to most people, lets admit it) choses to lump him in some category of their own choosing. Some love to talk about model railways and do nothing Some love to do and say nothing Some love a bit of both and some love to do and try and help others do the same. it doesnt really matter which one any person is. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hi Penine, I am not objecting to collectors its not derogatory term. I'm agreeing with RBE thats all. Chimer makes things that's great. No offence intended, sorry. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'm sorry, but whoever tried to shoot you down with that claim was blatantly wrong, the emerging 3D technology is going to revolutionise many things, including model railways. Seeing Bill Beford's 04/5 3D Cadwork with the potential for simply removing the Bachmann O4 bodyshell and replacing it with his own confirms this to me, and the amazing Immingham tram that has been printed by a member of this forum, and Atso's own superb work are further examples of this. I only wish I was better at Cadwork so I could do the same. I have tried, it is my task for the next year to get better at it overall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2011 Im not a mdelller...Its just a means to an end to me......... That end is to re-create scenes i see and or saw (or wanted to see) Im not a collector either....cos Im too tight fisted to buy much Where does that leave me? Happy... thats where it leaves me A Molly Coddler ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 1, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2011 Perhaps some of us are model railway enthusiasts and some are railway modellers. We all, hopefully, enjoy "playing trains" in our different ways. You don't have to make things to enjoy model railways. If I ever lost what little bit of skill I have at making things, I would still want a layout, something I could enjoy operating with RTR stock, track, buildings etc. Mickey is spot on! Happy is all that matters! If you don't enjoy yourself, get another hobby! The wife of a good friend (sounds like a Carly Simon song!) once saw a beautiful laser cut building that somebody had commissioned. Her response was "It is very nice but it isn't model making". Perhaps it isn't but if it gets somebody the building they always wanted but didn't fancy scratchbuilding, does it matter? The same with 3D printing. If the day comes when I can have an LD&ECR 0-4-4T printed up in a few seconds from a drawing and a photo fed into a computer, will I spend months scratchbuilding one? It depends on whether I am building a huge layout and don't have time to scratchbuild everything, or if I just want to sit with my saws, files and a soldering iron and enjoy making something. I would be happy with either, depending on the circumstances at the time. At least modern techniques would give me that choice, which I have not had before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Is the hobby changing? Of course it is and it always has. I still kit and scratchbuilt because I enjoy it, but I suspect may who learnt those skills in the past did because they were 'forced' to to get the stock they wanted. With the availability of the modern excellent RTR these folk and may newcomers into the hobby no longer see the need to do so. Indeed nowadays I only kit / scratchbuild where there is no good RTR available, life's too short to build everything! How do I define a railway modeller if you don't kit/scratchbuild etc? To me if you buy everything RTR put some track on a board and just 'play' trains [i mean play in the most basic sense] you aren't a railway modeller, however if you buy all RTR put some track on a board in a [possibly] prototypical track layout, don't even have scenery, but run it as the full size railway is run, then you are a railway modeller. I would say the biggest change in the hobby is a move from building locos, rolling stock etc to operation, which raises a point made by a senior member [and ex railwayman] of the club I'm a member of. While looking around an exhibition with him he made the comment that a lot of people in the hobby didn't seem to be interested in railways. After a reaction of eh! I discovered what he meant was that many people didn't seem interested in finding out about how the real railway is worked, how trains are made up etc and then operating their layout in accordance with prototypical practice. To him that is railway modelling, I have to say that I have some sympathy with his view. However to use a Tony Wrightism its your hobby/layout so whatever floats your boat! Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Seeing Bill Beford's 04/5 3D Cadwork with the potential for simply removing the Bachmann O4 bodyshell and replacing it with his own confirms this to me, Dead interested....Where can we see it...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middlesea John Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Like everything, of course the hobby has changed. For me the biggest thing is that there is little need for my particular skill which is (was ?) detailing ready to run models. I used to spend hours in the evening merrily adding details to locos, coaches etc. I did among others Triang M7s and Battle of Britains, H/D West Country & 2-6-4T. Now I sit and - they're all available ready to run and better than mine. It used to be a case of the journey is better then the destination but not now. What worries me, though, is that there is in some places a widening gap, just like society itself perhaps, between the haves and the have nots. So many of the layouts currnely on the exhibition circuit use the new, superb, ready to run models. I don't exhibit that often but I have had comments on why do I use detailed Tri-ang, Hornby or Lima Mark1 coaches or an Airfix/Hornby chassis 4MT 2-6-0 rather than the Bachmann. It's simple - I can't afford the new stock. I get a bit annoyed buy the patronising, "it's within everybody's pocket" because no - it isn't. I'm sure I could do the maths and compare the proportion of the cost of a loco or a rake of coaches to the national average wage now and at various times in the past and to those people with a fair disposable income then I'm sure it is affordable but, if you haven't got a job, then well over £100 for a new loco or £150 for a rake of coaches and getting on for that secondhand or on Ebay is quite out of the question. As it happens I like my old locos and coaches and will continue to run them even if the time comes when I can afford new ones. Those of us who model from the past are in the nostalgia game so what's wrong with being nostalgic about our models too ? I worry, though that exhibition managers of the future may think they're not good enough. That suggests the creation of an elite and I hate politics with a passion so I'll end there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Dead interested....Where can we see it...? Bill Bedford's O4/5 Bodyshell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2011 If I have understood correctly, then the strength or weakness of a CAD/CAM model is likely to be determined by the accuracy & quality of the original drawings - the machine will slavishly do as it is instructed. If so, presumably anyone who can design a decent set of etches can expect to transfer his/her skills to the new medium. How can this not be the next Big Thing in our hobby? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's another tool to aid us, not really a big thing as you still rely on the original design. The original design is always going to be the strong/weak point. Think of it as a new saw for the toolbox. It doesn't bring model making to the masses only to the skilled Just an opinion Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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