RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 15, 2012 Well, the booklet, prefaced by C.W. Powell, Operating Officer, Paddington, is dated September 1960. It does refer to Circular No.544 "Working of Diesel Pullman Trains", which presumably goes into more detail. It could be that 'opaque' refers to white opaque glass, as used on toilet windows, of course. The blue discs are referred to as 'steel', so there are clearly degrees of definition going on here. The Instruction I referred to - and clearly referenced to both its issuing offices - appeared at sometime between 1960 and 1966 although I cannot date it explicitly and was part of the official Instructions for all operational matters concerning the train including matters such as assistance and even running with reduced formations (possibly originally Circular No.544 or amending that Circular but clearly not referenced to it?) It was not normal for trains to have lights on when passing through tunnels in the early 1960s - turning lights on for tunnels is impractical with oil lamps as used on steam locos. The headcodes were there to inform the signalmen and other operating staff and signalboxes are not usually in tunnels (except on the Underground, of course, but that's a different railway with its own different practices). Classification indicators (and route and destination indicators) on diesel and electric trains and locomotives were required to be lit when passing through tunnels - amendment applicable from 18 June 1962 (although it might well have been issued earlier in WR Instructions - regrettably I don't have details of any WR alterations made between 1960 and 1962). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Hello all, having looked at some photos of Diesels in colour photos it looks like it was practise to have the marker lights lit during daylight with the white discs open. Looking at this photo, white discs in place (I would say with the lights on) blue disc in place over the middle light. In this photo, white discs in place (I would say with the lights on) but no blanking disc on the middle light. So to be something like correct at the front end two white discs (lights on or off, but I would say on), blue blanking disc in the middle. To show an E.C.S. working I'm not sure about how they would go about that during night time hours. As the middle light had a red lens fitted to it. At the rear, two blue blanking discs over the rear outer lights and a red disc on the middle (I would say with the light on). When running I would say that the cab lights would be off (but some drivers may like them on). All the times that I've travelled in the cab all the drivers have had the lights off day or night. But you could have the rear cab light on with a crew travelling back on the cushions. My reasoning for having the marker lights on, 1), your journey may start out in daylight but finish in the dark, so no rear light lit = train incomplete, so train is stopped. 2), you hit fog or falling snow, you can turn the head lights on but not the rear light? from the front cab. 3), train has lost motive power in a tunnel, no front lights or rear, loco sent in to assist no marker lights to help. OK the passenger cars (always cars in a Pullman) lights would help. 4) and train crews being train crews would just light the lights. I would bet that 99 times out of 100 that oil lights would be lit on locos and trains no matter what time of the day or night. Just in case. OzzyO. PS. as aside, how would the B.P. have been marked up if it was to be use for a royal train working, as it had no top lamp bracket? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 15, 2012 According to the WR Instructions (and possibly only applicable to the WR sets?) they could display an ECS code and they carried a red disc in both cabs although that was stated to be for wrong line working when it was of course necessary to have a red at the front. Those two features suggest that the middle light might not have been a fixed red. The Instructions required them - on the WR at any rate - to run with a red light illuminated at the rear at all times and for it to be replaced with an oil tail lamp if it failed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flapland Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Interesting thought one marked up as a Royal Train or in the land of nothing is impossible one in Royal train livery. Now if only I had the Photoshop skills to see what that would look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 should be really easy to do the cab blinds, one of the mags a few years back (maybe modelrail?) did an article on how to make some from card with the scissor drawn on, could also do the coach blinds too, like in Roberts pic a few posts back. I did think the powercar roof handrails seem to stick out a bit on close up shots but in real life they look ok. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 So to be something like correct at the front end two white discs (lights on or off, but I would say on), blue blanking disc in the middle. To show an E.C.S. working I'm not sure about how they would go about that during night time hours. As the middle light had a red lens fitted to it. The red lens is removeable - slide the (steel) blue plate out and slide the red (transluscent) one in. If you look at the top picture you can just make out the 'yoke' shape on the blue, same as the outer two, but without the colour contrast to help. When all-yellow ends came in logically the blue plates would have been painted yellow but, as the grey/blue liveried one shows, they weren't always used - they may have fallen out of favour altogether by then. When running I would say that the cab lights would be off (but some drivers may like them on). All the times that I've travelled in the cab all the drivers have had the lights off day or night. But you could have the rear cab light on with a crew travelling back on the cushions.Agreed on the rear cab. When driving the last thing you want is to be in the light trying to look out into the dark. Same as when driving a car. My reasoning for having the marker lights on, 1), your journey may start out in daylight but finish in the dark, so no rear light lit = train incomplete, so train is stopped. The sun sets at known times, trains run to timetables. Shouldn't be a problem unless you start getting really late, by which time you'd probably be stationary for long periods anyway, enough time to light the oil lamps, let alone flick a switch. 2), you hit fog or falling snow, you can turn the head lights on but not the rear light? from the front cab. If fog or snow were expected then lights would probably be lit - oil lamps were supposed to be kept in good condition ready to be lit at all times. Have a look at the BTF film 'Snow'. All the trains shot in falling snow had lights on; some of those in fallen (but not falling) snow didn't. 3), train has lost motive power in a tunnel, no front lights or rear, loco sent in to assist no marker lights to help. OK the passenger cars (always cars in a Pullman) lights would help. Rule 183 covers these curcumstances, mainly through the use of detonators, laid in a specific pattern of three "at least 100 yards" behind the train. A rescue loco entering into a section with a broken down train should be proceeding with caution anyway. Accidents have happened, of course, even after lights were required in daylight. 4) and train crews being train crews would just light the lights. I would bet that 99 times out of 100 that oil lights would be lit on locos and trains no matter what time of the day or night. Just in case.Quite possibly, though no doubt there were occasions when shed foremen would question the excessive use of lamp oil. Practices were clearly adapting to the change in motive power. By 1962 the replacement of steam on the Western Region was well under way (the Kings were all withdrawn that year as the Westerns were introduced) and completed by 1965. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 should be really easy to do the cab blinds, one of the mags a few years back (maybe modelrail?) did an article on how to make some from card with the scissor drawn on, could also do the coach blinds too, like in Roberts pic a few posts back. Well I did something similar with one my Class 85s - looks better with the driver figure behind so I need to swap the cab interiors. Bit of 0.020" plastic trimmed accordingly painted rail grey and glued to the cab roof allowing the glazing to be removed if required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2012 Rule 183 covers these curcumstances, mainly through the use of detonators, laid in a specific pattern of three "at least 100 yards" behind the train. A rescue loco entering into a section with a broken down train should be proceeding with caution anyway. Accidents have happened, of course, even after lights were required in daylight. Rule 183 does not apply in these circumstances - it refers to divided trains. Rule 179 (the basic protection Rule) was amended in 1968 to include an additional, single, detonator, 100 yards from the failed train during fog & falling snow (and usually taught and examined as 'when visibility is restricted') but it did not apply in tunnels. BTW as I have already noted the rear light on the BPs was required to be alight at all times on running lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 My apologies on 183 instead of 179; nonetheless, the primary means of protecting the rear under these kind of circumstances was aural, through the use of detonators. The BP's built-in rear light was a singular exception at the time; the more mundane DMUs were still using separate tail lamps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 For those of you who have purchased the Pullman and need to get inside the units to fit blanking plates or sort other matters I have posted some pictures on my Blog. I cannot believe that my Pullman was unique - I expect that there will be others out there needing attention. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2012 Apropro of nothing, but just for the record, on 29/3/69 the 6 car sets were formed as follows; 60091/60731/60741/60740/60730/60090. 60093/60733/60743/60742/60732/60092. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Apropro of nothing, but just for the record, on 29/3/69 the 6 car sets were formed as follows; 60091/60731/60741/60740/60730/60090. 60093/60733/60743/60742/60732/60092. Mike. ...which closely tallies with my earlier post - that whenever I saw the Midland Pullman, the 1/2 sets never changed within the 3 cars, though I did once see the 'wrong' two 1/2 sets together (if you follow my logic!) Stewart (must have been those unique couplings, which Bachmann have faithfully copied,,,,,) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
petee19 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 For those of you who have purchased the Pullman and need to get inside the units to fit blanking plates or sort other matters I have posted some pictures on my Blog. I cannot believe that my Pullman was unique - I expect that there will be others out there needing attention. Regards Ray My power car 'A' experienced a very similar problem,it ran fine on DCC then after fitting the blank chip for DC operation it ran for about 15 minutes then more or less stopped. I have returned it to Hattons who phoned me on Wednesday to confirm my findings,hopefully a replacement will be with me in 7 to 10 days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted November 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2012 Having waited for so long...... My BP has arrived and runs very well straight from the box (sorry to those who have had problems!) and obviously I cant resist adding my 'photo.... Taken this afternoon.... Interestingly, on the "reading matter" pile of mags, is a Hornby magazine from 2010..... Which states that the BP tops another poll... Adding, but will it sell? I guess the answer to that is probably beyond Bachmanns wildest dreams....... If the first run has actually sold out, I presume it will not be long before they start the second production run..... But! Given the quality of this model, where do we go next? Interesting eh! DCC Ready Rocket? !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 There is such an obvious 'train set' to accompany thousands of existing models. All those A4s, and none of the streamlined sets they were matched to. That was a long and tricky reverse for the mech hoss driver... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 think it will top 2 polls. model of the year. and wishlist of the year- Western 8 car pullman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 18, 2012 Having waited for so long...... My BP has arrived and runs very well straight from the box (sorry to those who have had problems!) and obviously I cant resist adding my 'photo.... Taken this afternoon.... Interestingly, on the "reading matter" pile of mags, is a Hornby magazine from 2010..... Which states that the BP tops another poll... Adding, but will it sell? I guess the answer to that is probably beyond Bachmanns wildest dreams....... If the first run has actually sold out, I presume it will not be long before they start the second production run..... But! Given the quality of this model, where do we go next? Interesting eh! DCC Ready Rocket? !! What are you doing Neal I thought you were a western steam man ! Seriously though a nice scene going on there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted November 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 18, 2012 What are you doing Neal I thought you were a western steam man ! Seriously though a nice scene going on there. Thanks Rob, Yes I am! But its one of those occasions where I have succumbed! I will add a sep thread for some pure GWR! However, back on topic - the quality of the BP and all those lights, show off how empty the carriage is.... They need people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 There is such an obvious 'train set' to accompany thousands of existing models. All those A4s, and none of the streamlined sets they were matched to. That was a long and tricky reverse for the mech hoss driver... Hmmmmmm someone needs to read my interview in BRM for my thinking on this point. ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 They need people. Im thinking on modelling the people in the blue pullman film, may get them done by those who sculpt figures Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 ........For those of you who have purchased the Pullman and need to get inside the units to fit blanking plates or sort other matters .... Nearly very good now - a with some running in the dark. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted November 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 18, 2012 just been speaking to bryan at howes has now completed has his blue pullman sound chip. as it happens i'm sat in marylebone and will be heading back north in a couple of hours so bryan is as i type this chipping up his pullman and is going to meet me in banbury to give to me to video, hopefully im going to get upto 250BOBS house this coming week so i'll take it with me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 That is great news Jim, look forward to seeing the video. Can you ask Bryan to tell us what he's used for the sounds please. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted November 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 18, 2012 from the howes website...... As there is very little authentic sound of the Blue Pullman on record, this project has been carefully created based on what can be regarded as the genuine, not dubbed recordings. The horns are produced to replicate the pitch and sound of the prototype, the F10 horn being a tribute to the double one heard on old archive footage. As this train ran primarily ran between London and Manchester the station announcements have been created using the correct departure timings for those stations, noting in the interest of authenticity, that in those days there was no such thing as a 24 clock announcement!!. The decoders are supplied as forward (Car A)driving and rear (Car F) trailing. The horn sounds have been made directional so they are only played from the lead power car. Pressing F2 and 3 at the same time plays both tones together, this practice was apparently used as by the driver as an emergency warning, pressing F2 and 3 together again stops the two horns. F19 is a 4 step volume control and mute, by repeated pressing of the function button the operator can set the level they wish, F21 is a fade up/down control which is set at 25% on fade down, useful for entering or leaving the display area of a layout, the minimum level can be changed by the operator by altering the value of CV133, values are 0 min 128 max, the default is set at 32 (25%). and here are the functions..... F0 Head, Tail and interior lights on/off F1 Sound on off F2 Double Horn playable in direction of travel F3 Double Horn playable in direction of travel F4 Single Horn playable in direction of travel F5 Carriage door slam F6 Guards whistle F7 Guard driver buzzer F8 Table lights (Aux 1) F9 Cab lights (Aux 2) F10 Low high low high horn in direction of travel F11 Station announcement at Manchester F12 Station announcement at St Pancras F13 Flange squeal F14 Wheel / sleeper groan F15 Accel Decel override F16 Shunt mode - Half speed F17 Diesel Notch up F18 Diesel Notch down F19 Volume control Mute to Max in 4 steps F20 Disable Brake sound F21 Sound fade up down i'll be doing the video on thursday evening Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Looking forward to that Big Jim! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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