D605Eagle Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 We need to know how locos were selected for refurbishing. Was the plan orriginally to do the whole fleet? and if thats the case, why wasn't D6127 done first as it was sidelined, or was it too badly fire damaged? The D6121/2 saga is almost reminiscent of the Olympic/Titanic controversy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Just happened on this, not sure if we've had it before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N08/6462572579/in/set-72157628297104467/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Just happened on this, not sure if we've had it before: http://www.flickr.co...57628297104467/ Shame they parked that kettle in the way. D6124 was one of the 29 refurbs wasn't it? September 66 that picture allegedly too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 April 2012 is the 50th anniversary of NBL going into liquidation. I have written a lengthy piece for Railways Illustrated setting out the behind the scenes goings on during that period, including details of the Government loan in 1959, the discussions by the Cabinet and a whole host of other stuff. Basically the BTC were fed up with NBL delivering low quality unrelaible locomotives late. At one point they could have persued a claim for damages against NBL for £1.2million at 1960 prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Sounds like an interesting read, if a bit painful for the likes of Glasgow boys like myself. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Even more interesting if it includes NBL's take on the whole debacle (up to now it's been quite absent)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Even more interesting if it includes NBL's take on the whole debacle (up to now it's been quite absent)! I have tried to look at the story in the round so to speak. I have sought to describe what NBL's problems were, how the new management under Tom Coughtrie tried to rectify the situation, the involvement of the Government in various ways including the loan, and finally when the main creditors realised the game was up and that liquidation was the only option. Most new information has come from Board of Trade documents of the time. I have touched on the long and ultimately fruitless campaign by Martin Moir to get compensation for the NBL shareholders. Assuming it is printed as submitted it is just shy of 4000 words long so I am certain I will be shedding some new light on the company's demise. Regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Many thanks Simon. I'm sure the article will merit a separate thread on here come the time it's published (let us know as I'm not a regular reader). Tom Coughtrie came across (in hindsight of course) as a bit of a Sir Fred, as no doubt did his Vice Chairman Lord Reith both of course government appointees! A very complex story culminating in the voluntary liquidation and all ultimately too little too late for the 5000 employees over three workshops! I have a particular interest being a Glaswegian boy like Dave, but in addition Lord Reith was a former native of Stonehaven where I live these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Many thanks Simon. I'm sure the article will merit a separate thread on here come the time it's published (let us know as I'm not a regular reader). Tom Coughtrie came across (in hindsight of course) as a bit of a Sir Fred, as no doubt did his Vice Chairman Lord Reith both of course government appointees! A very complex story culminating in the voluntary liquidation and all ultimately too little too late for the 5000 employees over three workshops! I have a particular interest being a Glaswegian boy like Dave, but in addition Lord Reith was a former native of Stonehaven where I live these days. Just one correction to make, Lord Reith was not a Government appointment, only Tom Coughtrie was. Lord Reith was as I recall the Clydesdale bank nominee. Not sure I would agree with your view about Coughtrie being like Fred Goodwin. He was a reluctant Chairman and was dealt a fairly poor hand. Regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 It's perhaps unfair to go too much into it without having read your article first however the comparison I was making (as well as both representing the major creditors) was that Tom Coughtrie didn't lose out of it, though the 5,000 employess certainly did.. Suffice to say, two years after they put the company into voluntary liquidation, in comparison with the huge personal losses incurrred by the workforce, he however was still able to purchase (by private sale) a 3,300 acre estate in Scotland (c/w 12 tenant farms)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 It's perhaps unfair to go too much into it without having read your article first however the comparison I was making (as well as both representing the major creditors) was that Tom Coughtrie didn't lose out of it, though the 5,000 employess certainly did.. Suffice to say, two years after they put the company into voluntary liquidation, in comparison with the huge personal losses incurrred by the workforce, he however was still able to purchase (by private sale) a 3,300 acre estate in Scotland (c/w 12 tenant farms)! The closure of NBL was a tragedy all round. When you look at the losses that were being made it is not suprising they went to the wall. The article will set out in more detail what went wrong at NBL. Mr Coughtrie may well have been able to walk away from NBL and continue his business career, lets not forget he was a man of some reputation before he first went to Flemington Street. He certainly seems to have had a pretty good shot at putting NBL back on its feet. The previous management certainly had questions to answer. Anyway in a couple of weeks time the article will be published and I am sure we can resume this interest discussion then. Best wishes Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 In some ways it was NBL's own fault for cutting corners and not 'sticking to the script' when it came to manufacturer's specifications concerning materials, etc, especially when building diesel engines and transmissions under licence. Companies like Bristol Siddeley and Vickers Armstrong seemed to be capable of building engines under licence which performed considerably better than the NBL MAN engines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Vickers built (for example) the Sulzer 12LDA's in close co-operation with Sulzer (UK) technically not under licence, managed to change the spec. of the crankcase fabrication, with some rather unexpected and expensive consequences! It was a rocky road for all the engine builders (I wouldn't dare to mention the 22 mollycoddled regiments & horses ) - not least by the likes of the NBL who once having been the largest locomotive builder in the World (of steam locomotives) couldn't make the required change in production - and supply the locomotives to BR at a discounted price. BTW Simon's Railways Illustrated article is out in the next (May) edition due on the 6th! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Vickers built (for example) the Sulzer 12LDA's in close co-operation with Sulzer (UK) technically not under licence, managed to change the spec. of the crankcase fabrication, with some rather unexpected and expensive consequences! It was a rocky road for all the engine builders (I wouldn't dare to mention the 22 mollycoddled regiments & horses ) - not least by the likes of the NBL who once having been the largest locomotive builder in the World (of steam locomotives) couldn't make the required change in production - and supply the locomotives to BR at a discounted price. BTW Simon's Railways Illustrated article is out in the next (May) edition due on the 6th! I don't think trying to get 2,750hp out of a 12LDA28C was a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I don't think trying to get 2,750hp out of a 12LDA28C was a good idea. With hindsight possibly not, but it was a logical uprating only 250 hp on the B varient. Remember EE at the time were planning to make the jump from 2000 to 2700 in one leap, a thought that gave BR the colly-wobbles. As a result when the first Type 4 tender was run in 1960, the cheapest proposal of a Brush built loco with an EE engine was rejected and the BTC went with Lion instead because they had more faith in the Sulzer engine at the higher output. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 The 'B' variant of the Sulzer power unit derived the extra 250hp by the addition of charge air intercooling though, not by shoving the rpm's up. Likewise the 2700hp 16CSVT was an intercooled version of the 2000hp 16SVT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The rpm of the C varient was increased to 800 rpm which was to cause some of the trouble. It led to unbalanced components and the accumulation of stresses led to the number 7 girder cracking. If you want further info try the August 2009 issue of Traction. regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardonian Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 We need to know how locos were selected for refurbishing. Was the plan orriginally to do the whole fleet? and if thats the case, why wasn't D6127 done first as it was sidelined, or was it too badly fire damaged? The D6121/2 saga is almost reminiscent of the Olympic/Titanic controversy Has anyone got a picture of the remains of D6127 if so I would like to have a look SAW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 A very poignant addition to this thread. I've never met Ewan Crawford of RailScot photo library fame, but I know that I owe a debt of gratitude to him and the photographic legacy of his father. So it is with my utmost respect that I post this link to mark the passing of James Crawford, one time North British Loco engineer, who passed on the railway gene to his boy. Thank you. http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=45221 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Strathwood Posted November 7, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2013 Has anyone got a picture of the remains of D6127 if so I would like to have a look SAW All the photos I have seen of D6127 show that the fire damage was VERY extensive with a lot of the alloy bodywork melted away, so I suspect the back of the locomotive was broken, as all that heat must have damaged the frames. To replicate this wait until next summer and place an old Hornby Class 29 on your dashboard in the car, wind all the windows up and park it somewhere in the sun all day. Roll on the Dapol Class 21s and Class 29s please. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 8, 2014 Have the photos linked from this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85613-1960s-scotland-type-1-2s/ been seen before I wonder? Cheers Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell Saxton Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Seen at least three shots of D6109 in blue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold scottystitch Posted February 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2015 HELP! Hello folks, I'm looking for some help with regard to the Class 21/29 liveries. Over on NGF, I'm trying to put a case together for an N gauge 21/29, and as a result trying to provide as much information I can with regard to liveries etc. There are a few points I (think) understand, but you guys with much more knowledge might be able to confirm/correct: All the 58 21s were delivered in all over green, without yellow panels. Did they all receive small yellow panels before withdrawal? Is there a record anywhere of when this took place on each locomotive? (I'm guessing not!) When the 20 21s were refurbished into 29s, did they all get two tone green? I understand that one (the first refurb) did not get a headcode box at that time. Did it ever get it retrofitted later? When did the 29s get two tone green with full yellow panels? Did they all get full yellow panels before going blue? Did all the 20s get repainted in blue? Also, had the "D" been removed from all machines by this time? When would the "D" have been removed from the two tone green machines? Did any 21s make it to having the "D" removed (I'm guessing not) I apologise for the number of questions, but if anyone can provide any answers, it would be very much appreciated. I don't expect you to have all the answers, as I realise that not all the answers may even be known..... Thanks for listening (reading) Scotty EDIT: Questions modified based on information gained. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 The 29s did not all receive blue. Here is one withdrawn still in green: 6101_Polmadie_28-5-72 by robertcwp, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve T Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 D6127 and D6151 were definitely scrapped in all over green and I understand D6125 may also have ended its days without getting yellow panels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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