6959 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 In recent years there seem to be fewer and fewer CDs and model railway items as private auctions on ebay but a proliferation of buy-it-now and shops. Some people I know have dropped out of selling on ebay and give their reasons as the higher ebay and pay pal fees but, more often, ebay's new buyer protection scheme which can be unfairly biased against the seller. Shops with a high turnover can absorb an occasional loss but the seller of own property just having a clear out cannot. Recently, I had an 'item not received' complaint go against me despite the fact that I got a franked 'Certificate of Posting' form P326 and sent two copies of this to the buyer. I saw the package go into the sack so I know it was sent. Ebay gave him a full refund at my expense and gave the reason for me losing the case was that I could not supply a tracking number. I sent a very detailed list to the buyer and to ebay to support my case that I had done everything I needed to do to prove it was posted but ebay either did not read it or did not consider it. One way or another I spent a couple of hours sorting this out. The only way to get a tracking number is to use a carrier or Royal Mail's 'signed for' delivery which costs the buyer much more. To me, 'signed for' delivery is a pain in the wotsit because it costs the buyer more and there can be frequent missed deliveries or visits to the sorting office which can be ten or more miles away in the wrong direction. This little gem is passed on as a warning to anyone who is interested. The bottom line is that if instead of a 'signed for' delivery service, standard post is used albeit with proof of posting and the item goes astray, ebay will assume the seller is a rogue and refund the buyer and deduct this amount from the seller's paypal account. Despite doing everything reasonably expected, the seller could also get neutral or negative feedback. There is no appeal procedure. In my case I think the item was lost in the postal system but ebay's new buyer protection policy leaves the door wide open to fraud by dishonest buyers. In theory, a determined Arthur Daly could get the goods but deny it, then get a pay pal refund from the seller via ebay complaints procedure and also get compensation from Royal Mail. A nice little earner. However, it worked out OK for me eventually because I submitted a complaint to Royal Mail and received a letter of apology together with a cheque for the cost of the ebay items but less postage because I used stamps and did not get a receipt for them. The value of the cheque was near enough for me not to be too much out of pocket but it is a lesson for the future. Do I insist on 'signed for' delivery and risk getting fewer bids or not bother selling on ebay? Low value items of all descriptions now go to a charity shop or landfill. Any model railway of value can go to my grandsons to play with. As I buy a lot on ebay I suppose it works both ways. When things go unavoidably wrong I give seemingly honest sellers the benefit of the doubt but have claimed against crooks who did not bother to post the item and did not respond to e-mail messages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ebays number one rule:- The buyer is ALWAYS right never mind the circumstances. Proof of postage tracking numbers etc are a figment of their imagination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Following a similar experience I always use recorded delivery now, only 77p for Royal Mail. As long as the cost is reflected in the postage I don't think the seller can go wrong. Proof of delivery is exactly what it says. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2012 Following a similar experience I always use recorded delivery now, only 77p for Royal Mail. As long as the cost is reflected in the postage I don't think the seller can go wrong. Proof of delivery is exactly what it says. Agreed - it's what Ebay require you to do. Despite what some sellers say in the descriptions, it's the seller's responsibility to ensure the item is delivered. It still only covers you for £46 compensation so if the item is more than that then you can use Special Delivery. The buyer can't claim the item's not received if there's a signature, nor will PayPal refund if there is as you have proof of delivery. Likewise Royal Mail will not quibble over compensation if there has been no signature. I just include the extra 77p in the postage cost. I appreciate there are some rogue buyers out there, but if you state that despatch will be by signed-for delivery then perhaps they won't bid ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 <p> Shops with a high turnover can absorb an occasional loss but the seller of own property just having a clear out cannot. Originally ebay was a method of selling unwanted and worthless junk. IMO it still is. So if someone was just going to throw something away (rubbish, landfill) ebay provided an opportunity for you to get a few quid instead from someone who still saw value in the item. For some reason sellers now approach ebay in a completely different way - they now want to squeeze as much as they can out of a buyer. Hence silly BIN prices close to the RRP for what is essentially second hand goods. Personally I think a 0.99p (or better a £0p) starting price should be enforced along with postage for items sold over say £30 free. <p> I got a franked 'Certificate of Posting' form P326 and sent two copies of this to the buyer. I saw the package go into the sack so I know it was sent. did, you see it leave the post office, get sorted, get transported, resorted locally and actually delivered by the postie? That is the problem. What you do not have is proof of delivery. You need that before you start accusing the buyer of fraud. Items do go missing in the post every day, and from my perspective frighteningly too often. Proof that you paid for postage is not proof that it was posted and delivered. Of course from the buyer's perspective they have paid (you wouldn't send the goods if they hadn't) but have not received the item. After a reasonable length of time any sensible person would naturally think the seller is holding back. Even if they sent a "proof of postage" it means nothing - it could be from another sale. At least with "signed for" there is a tracking number. Not that that is any guarantee. The most recent purchase I had was delivered as a card "you were not in" when I opened the door and shouted after the postman "what the hell was he playing at?" only to be told that he didn't have the packet with him just the card and I should go to the sorting office to collect it. I don't like the way ebay has turned out, but sadly there is no real alternative. They can make more acting as a BIN shop with a shopping cart, so of course they do. They don't care about the individual item seller anymore, after all there is only just so much s/h junk in the world to be sold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I suppose the trick would be to ONLY list recorded signed for as the postage option. If given options, buyers invariably pick the cheapest. Given that Ebay has really gone downhill of late and seems determined to penalise even legitimate sellers, it would be the only route I would take these days. However Ebay is neither the treasure-trove of bargains nor the ideal place to dispose of unwanted stuff that it once was. I occasionally buy the odd bit on there (usually from North Wales models these days) but the days of buying hundreds of little hard to get items a year on there are long gone for me. I'm back to my local model shop or buying at shows these days instead because it's much less hassle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I rapidly became disenchanted with Ebay after selling only one item... The fees would have given me a terminal case of depression had I let them If you have a lot of stuff to sell, a good route to go is to set up your own website... I have managed so far to dispose of over 95% of a really valuable collection of zippo lighters by this method. There were a lot of repeat cutomers.. The downside is it took about 3 years, but I was in no hurry. Had I permitted the use of paypal more items would undoubtedly have been sold... It is well worth trying if you have an entrepreneural spirit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Recently, I had an 'item not received' complaint go against me despite the fact that I got a franked 'Certificate of Posting' form P326 and sent two copies of this to the buyer. I saw the package go into the sack so I know it was sent. Ebay gave him a full refund at my expense and gave the reason for me losing the case was that I could not supply a tracking number. I sent a very detailed list to the buyer and to ebay to support my case that I had done everything I needed to do to prove it was posted but ebay either did not read it or did not consider it. One way or another I spent a couple of hours sorting this out. Why should the buyer suffer a loss if the item has genuinely not been received? If a buyer makes a purchase and does not receive the goods then he/she is surely within their right to expect a refund? The whole stance from sellers who often adopt the "I sent the package and its in the hands of Royal Mail, so it's not my problem guvnor" is all too common, and ultimately leaves genuine buyers with little confidence in the eBay system. To protect yourself as a seller, if standard mail (non-trackable) is used then providing a "proof of posting " receipt is retained then Royal Mail will compensate to something in the region of £44. If the item is worth a higher value, or if you simply require peace-of-mind, then simply use a registered service which offers adequate insurance to the seller in the event of loss or damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Chris Chewter Posted January 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2012 The problem of using recorded delivery, is that buyers then complain about high postage charges, and reflect this in the star ratings. If you give the buyers the choice, the average punter will always take the cheapest option, regardless of any warnings. Its a loosing situation whichever method you use! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted January 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2012 So why not factor the cost of tracked postage into the starting price and offer free p&p = automatic 5 stars Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I have sent loads of items, thankfully all but 1 arrived safely, The Royal Mail paid up after 4 weeks no problems(including postage) after 4 weeks in full and I made more than I would have done selling through Ebay as they returned theirs and Paypal fees. I do not send items recorded unless they are over £40 in value, its an un-necessary cost to me, and a pain for the buyer who if out at the time the postman comes has the hassle of having to go to the delivery office (mine closes at 12.30) to pick it up. The Royal Mail makes an extra 75p for recorded delivery and gives you no additional compensation, no brainer. It has to be the sellers responsibility for lost in post items and the Royal Mail has a simple and straight forward system to use. Interestingly they have additional questions for Ebay items on the claim form. I guess they keep an eye on both sellers and buyers who make claims !!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiebrfan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 So why not factor the cost of tracked postage into the starting price and offer free p&p = automatic 5 stars I sympathise with the OP and was going to say as others have to insist on signed for delivery. You then however risk putting bargain hunters (skinflints) off who dont want to pay higher rates. I think Taz's idea is a very good one, you automatically think, Hey I'm getting a bargain Free Postage! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseboy72 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I had a case a few years ago where we sold an expensive push chair. The buyer paid up by Paypal, but they had a poor score and lived in a very dodgy area. As it was only 30 mins down the road, I opted to deliver it instead of posting it. The funny thing is, when I got there, the guy was unhappy that I had delivered it, not used a courier "As he had paid for" and there was no sign of any kids at the address. About a week later the push chair was back on Ebay as he tried to move it on. It was only now, thinking back, that I have come to the opinion that he was trying to scam me and would have claimed the item lost in the post, got his mony back through PayPal and then sold it. I must confess, I am now very wary of Ebay and only sell higher value items with tracked courier delivery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 How on earth could a Push chair be sent in an untrackeable way? I have been scammed as a buyer a few times! The so called eBay rule of the buyer is always right, does not apply all the time! In one case I bought a heavy book, that when delivered, had been so terribly packed that it was delivered bent and torn. The post office said the packaging did not fulfill the standards, and I got that in writing on the slip. When I contacted the seller he didn't care to discuss the matter, and when I said that it also had been sent in a cheaper way than what I paid he hung up..... eBay only replied that I could get a refund if I sent it back! I wouldn't get the return postage though, and I had to send it by recorded delivery.... The book that cost me £40, would cost me £35 to return!! I couldn't even get a part refund that would suit the damage of the item!!! If I had just said "it didn't arrive" (as he sent it unsigned for onstead of the more expensive that I had paid for), then I would have gotten a full refund!!! Guess why some people get to be dishonest by default! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 How on earth could a Push chair be sent in an untrackeable way? I have been scammed as a buyer a few times! The so called eBay rule of the buyer is always right, does not apply all the time! In one case I bought a heavy book, that when delivered, had been so terribly packed that it was delivered bent and torn. The post office said the packaging did not fulfill the standards, and I got that in writing on the slip. When I contacted the seller he didn't care to discuss the matter, and when I said that it also had been sent in a cheaper way than what I paid he hung up..... eBay only replied that I could get a refund if I sent it back! I wouldn't get the return postage though, and I had to send it by recorded delivery.... The book that cost me £40, would cost me £35 to return!! I couldn't even get a part refund that would suit the damage of the item!!! If I had just said "it didn't arrive" (as he sent it unsigned for onstead of the more expensive that I had paid for), then I would have gotten a full refund!!! Guess why some people get to be dishonest by default! Under the latest set of Ebay rules c(ertanly within the UK) the seller takes all the responsibility for delivering the item in good order and pay for the return (I think Ebay comes under the mail order laws) if they are faulty or damaged in the post. Open a dispute and the chances is that Ebay will come down on the buyers side most times Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d600 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Mmm same thing happened to me sold o gauge loco £400 sent it recorded delivery via ebay/paypal posting system 2 weeks after posting seller opened a dispute saying he didnt receive it although it was signed for he said it wasent is signature and that he didnt receive it paypal saw i sent it recorded via them but they still gave him a refund from my card i lost loco and money when you sign up for paypal you give them full rights over your money they can hold your money issue refunds thats why now i wouldnt touch paypal with a barge pole. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Mmm same thing happened to me sold o gauge loco £400 sent it recorded delivery via ebay/paypal posting system 2 weeks after posting seller opened a dispute saying he didnt receive it although it was signed for he said it wasent is signature and that he didnt receive it paypal saw i sent it recorded via them but they still gave him a refund from my card i lost loco and money when you sign up for paypal you give them full rights over your money they can hold your money issue refunds thats why now i wouldnt touch paypal with a barge pole. cheers That sounds like an unfortunate incident. However, this sounds like an assumption that the buyer is dishonest? Have you considered that he may well have been telling the truth? If the receiver is claiming that it is not his/her signature on the 'proof of delivery', then you, as the sender, have the right to make a claim via Royal Mail. It then becomes the responsibility of Royal Mail to investigate as to exactly where the package was delivered and award compensation if an error has been made. However, if you mailed an item worth £400 via Recorded Delivery, then to be fair, you used a service with inadequate insurance anyway, as insurance is only provided up to the value of £44. Surely a courier, or Special Delivery would have been more appropriate for a high value item... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I had an incident over the Christmas period where an item had not turned up. I got the tracking number from the seller and checked the electronic proof of delivery on the RM site. Apparently it had been signed for, 2 days previously, by DWS. I found out from my local PO that DWS meant Delivered Without Signature, apparently an acceptable method of delivering items at busy periods without obtaining the signature required (and paid for), and there was no sign of the item. I co-operated fully with the seller, there was no need for a dispute as communication was fine between us, I filled out all the PO's forms for his claim (it was only about £16), they never said if they got their refund, but to my mind this sort of practice can easily lead to fraud and despite our wish to have faith in our fellow hunam beings, there are some dodgy so and so's out there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
industrial Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Last Sunday I sold my first 3 items on ebay and by mid Monday afternoon all three had paid me and so they were sent first class recorded that day. Well according to the Royal Mail two of the parcels are still at large and the third one has got there and has been signed for. But all three have been delivered the next day as the two still at large according to Royal Mail I have had feed back from those buyers and paypal has released the money but the one Royal Mail have confirmed as delivered the buyer has not confirmed delivery of and paypal has not realised the money for. All three were on 100% feed back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFFTHE RAILS Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Last Sunday I sold my first 3 items on ebay and by mid Monday afternoon all three had paid me and so they were sent first class recorded that day. Well according to the Royal Mail two of the parcels are still at large and the third one has got there and has been signed for. But all three have been delivered the next day as the two still at large according to Royal Mail I have had feed back from those buyers and paypal has released the money but the one Royal Mail have confirmed as delivered the buyer has not confirmed delivery of and paypal has not realised the money for. All three were on 100% feed back. Last Sunday I sold my first 3 items on ebay and by mid Monday afternoon all three had paid me and so they were sent first class recorded that day. Well according to the Royal Mail two of the parcels are still at large and the third one has got there and has been signed for. But all three have been delivered the next day as the two still at large according to Royal Mail I have had feed back from those buyers and paypal has released the money but the one Royal Mail have confirmed as delivered the buyer has not confirmed delivery of and paypal has not realised the money for. All three were on 100% feed back. I've read and re-read your second paragraph and still don't understand it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted February 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2012 Three parcels all sent Royal Mail Recorded Delivery. Two are showing as not yet delivered but they have been as feedback has been received. The third is showing as delivered but no feedback received which indicates it may not have been delivered after all. I had a wadge of parcels turn up yesterday (at five thirty in the evening!!) and one of those was signed for but no signature was ever collected as the Postie was in a hurry so that will still be showing as not yet delivered. In summary - Royal Mail = Not the best Mod3 Sweeping generalisations are not encouraged, whilst you might have a less than high opinion of the RM not every one will agree. I'm sure if someone were to categorise all rail staff the same way you would not be overly happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2012 I can only speak as I found. I recently sold a collection of railway items, some of individually 'high value' on Ebay, which were from the estate of a friend's father. I got some very good prices for him and all went well, with all buyers seemingly very happy with the service given and all left very positive feedback. In this particular 'collectors' market, buyers can be a very fussy lot (with some appearing to be more interested in the box!). With this in mind I always gave a large selection of close-up snaps, highlighting any marks or flaws so that the potential buyer could see exactly what they were bidding for and included an honest opinion on running quality and overall condition. Regarding postage I always used, for high realised value, 'Next day special delivery' (mostly costing around £7) which gave high enough insurance cover for the value of the item, and was trackable. For items with value under £46 1st class recorded worked O.K. I had no complaints about postage and packing costs from anybody (50+ buyers). Some sellers seem to want to make money on postage and packing. I only charged the R.M. rates plus £1 (cost) for the special boxes that I bought for the better items. I can't subscribe to the idea that the Royal Mail aren't the best Parcel Force (same organisation)...that's another story! Whilst no particular admirer of Ebay, I'm happy to use them, as most of this stuff could have been sold through well known 'toy and antique' auctions at higher commission rates. After all, commission has to be paid in the end. Always being accurate, honest and quick with despatch served me well. Also the use of paypal was effective in quick turnover. OK, there's commission to pay on that as well, but you don't get owt for nowt these days. As I said, I speak as I found. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Three parcels all sent Royal Mail Recorded Delivery. Two are showing as not yet delivered but they have been as feedback has been received. The third is showing as delivered but no feedback received which indicates it may not have been delivered after all. I had a wadge of parcels turn up yesterday (at five thirty in the evening!!) and one of those was signed for but no signature was ever collected as the Postie was in a hurry so that will still be showing as not yet delivered. In summary - Royal Mail = Not the best Mod3 Sweeping generalisations are not encouraged, whilst you might have a less than high opinion of the RM not every one will agree. I'm sure if someone were to categorise all rail staff the same way you would not be overly happy. I have nothing to do with the Royal Mail other than being a customer. Just because you have not recieved feedback does not mean it has not been delivered. Its just that the buyer has not posted any feedback, and may never. On the basis you have 2 feedbacks + confirmation from the Royal Mail that the other one has been delivered, I think they have done you proud and should deserve a pat on the back. You paid for next day delivery, thats what you got and I guess the buyers are over the moon. Now about the 2 items that have no signatures, contact the Royal Mail and complain that no signatures were obtained and I think (from other posts) they will refund the 2 x 75p's. I am overjoyed that the postman puts recorded delivery items through the letter box when I am out, it saves me a journey to the delivery office, which sometimes is several days later as ours closes at 12:30. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 I had a bad do the other day when buying (not railway stuff) and the item, which was VERY high value (over £350) was sent by fully insured, tracked Special Delivery via Royal Mail - with a 1.00 pm delivery guarantee. I checked the Royal Mail website at 13.15 as the parcel had not arived, but the item was signed for at 12.24. I e-mailed the seller, who luckily was online, and she started off a missing item investigation right away with Royal Mail. Meanwhile my wife, who was at home went off to see if the parcel had been mis-delivered, and met the postwoman round the corner, and quizzed her, to find that the parcel was still sitting on the seat of her van, almost an hour after the alleged delivery time, and with the delivery woman not seeming in the least concerned or perturbed. When asked how it had been signed for, the reply was that she must have got a signature for our parcel when delivering another one nearby. Between us, the seller and I raised a complaint with Royal Mail, and in the end, the Special Delivery charge was rebated, on the grounds of late delivery. However, the Royal Mail could see that the parcel had been signed for twice with two different signatures, but they never explained that to either sender or addressee. We both believe that this was a deliberate attempt to falisfy an on time delivery, but we'll probably never find out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verityboo Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Paypal does find in favour of the buyer if delivery cannot be proved but I think thats only reasonable, the buyer would otherwise loose out. Its only the sender who can claim from the delivery company as it's the sender who has the contract with them. The person who started the thread had the paypal case go against them but they could have claimed the money back from royal mail as they had a cert of posting etc so should not have lost out. It is worth checking that the value of the item is not more than approx £46 as rm will not pay out anything if a high value item by the wrong service, for example an item is sent first class when special delivery would have been appropriate As others have said, charging extra for recorded is rarely worth it as it doesn't always track and the extra expense annoys buyers. It might however put off someone who is thinking of being dishonest. Looking on other forums (ebay and moneysavingexpert etc) there are a tiny number of dishonest buyers but they tend to pick on new less esperienced sellers. A bigger scam is where buyers pay by Paypal but then collect the item in person. They then claim non delivery and get a refund as there is no online tracking to prove delivery (no other proof is acceptible) and there is no delivery company for the seller to claim off. The best rule with ebay is do not allow collection of an item, always list a postal option and only offer collection with cash payment. I think it's worth bearing in mind that the protection offered by Paypal gives buyers the confidence to buy and pay good prices. I bought some brand new LGB g scale track from an online shop for use at our model railway clubs exhibition. I used the track for the day and then sold it as second hand on Ebay and taking into account all the cost & fees still made a profit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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