I.E.P.

[Glorious NSE]

HST's giving you a lovely smell of warm brakes is not a sign of cost cutting AFAIK, they have always been that way (if you search i'm pretty sure you'll find folk referencing the aircon sucking in brake smell issue back in 1976 when they were shiny and new!) - it's a sign of heavy braking, not of worn out brakes as I understand it.

[david.hill64]

HST's giving you a lovely smell of warm brakes is not a sign of cost cutting AFAIK, they have always been that way (if you search i'm pretty sure you'll find folk referencing the aircon sucking in brake smell issue back in 1976 when they were shiny and new!) - it's a sign of heavy braking, not of worn out brakes as I understand it.

I think RichardE's comments relate to IC225 brakes now being pungent.

 

Brake odour is a function of temperature, so yes heavy braking gives rise to higher temperatures and hence smell. But thin pads will also get hotter than thick ones to some extent and at the margins there could be an increase in smell if pads are allowed to get very thin. Mark 4 coaches are fitted with three brake discs per axle: two would have been sufficient for 125mph operation but were marginal for 140mph operation so BR decided to fit three. (If I had known at the time that 140mph running would never happen then I would have changed my recommendation). One advantage of the third brake was that pad temperatures and wear rates were very low: more than 12 months between pad changes if memory serves me correctly. The downside was increased unsprung axle load and increased aerodynamic drag. If these vehicles are still running with three discs then I am very surprised that smell has become a problem.

 

The original problem with smell on the first 125s was very real. It became less when the HST's were governed to curb the over-exuberance of drivers wishing to be a member of the '140 club' and when the material was changed from the original asbestos containing pads to the non-asbestos variety. The change of brakes on the power cars also helped the trailer cars: originally braking effort was reduced on the power cars at high speed compared to the trailer cars and set higher at lower speeds. I am racking my brain to remember the changeover speed: 70 or 90mph I think. This meant that the trailer cars had to brake the power car mass at higher speeds (just like a conventional loco and coaches), which meant that their brakes got hotter.

 

Edit for typo.

[Richard E]

A very pungent smell, to the point of being choking and creating comments from passengers on a 225 should not be the norm even under very heavy braking yet it occurs. It is also far worse on some sets, at random, compared to others and can happen under firm braking in some cases and not so under very heavy braking in others. I agree that, even now, the HST can be more prone to it than the 225's, odours entering via the open door droplights in the vestibules.

 

The last occurrence, last week, was so bad that it left a taste in the mouth for a good ten minutes or so after it happened with passengers the length of the carriage commenting about burning smells and fires, suggesting the guard should be summoned or the communication cord be pulled; the braking wasn't as heavy as some instances yet the smell was probably the worst I've experienced.

 

Some smell from the brakes is something that occurs at least weekly. For me, with quite heavy involvement in motorsport, the smell is very distinctive and does not cause me concern but I do recognize it as a sign of heavily used brakes, it is affected by pad wear as the heat sink volume of the pad is reduced if allowed to get too thin. It can also be affected by the pad material as well, some materials are more prone to smell than others.

 

My initial comment was based on a remark made to me by a member of NR staff on one occasion of this happening some time ago.

 

As an aside the 225's are also prone, at times, to have a coach or two smelling like a sewage farm whilst in EC use. It is also not unknown for toilets to be locked out of use due to the water tanks in that particular coach being empty albeit later on in the day. Mind you some of the travelling public do not help, I dread to think what their houses are like.

 

In coach electrics are also regularly unavailable with the crew sometimes able to reset the circuit breakers, on other occasions (like last week) there is nothing they are able to do other than suggest travellers needing mains power for their laptop change coach. Last week saw 30% of my journeys completed without mains power available during part or all of the journey.

 

Having said that I have a lot of sympathy for the train crew as they are the visible human side of the railway and get flak for problems they cannot control or influence whilst also having to deal with unruly or even violent people on board.

 

So, to return on topic, the 225's look and feel tired to a member of the public, can cause concerns about safety and many need interior facelifts. I have yet to hear or experience the same complaints and issues on a Voyager when I have used them between York and Doncaster. Both have the same issue that annoys many of seats not lining up with windows though.

 

Oh, has anyone noticed the ex Midland HST on the ECML that has original 125 seats one side of the aisle and 225 style seats the other in at least one coach? I've not seen it for a while so I wonder what has happened to that hybrid.

[Reorte]

So, to return on topic, the 225's look and feel tired to a member of the public, can cause concerns about safety and many need interior facelifts. I have yet to hear or experience the same complaints and issues on a Voyager when I have used them between York and Doncaster. Both have the same issue that annoys many of seats not lining up with windows though.

Voyagers are much newer though (not that I know when the 225 sets were last refurbished), and it's not as if they've had a smell-free history. The biggest problem with Voyagers in my experience is that they're usually much too short for the jobs they're given, usually very full and getting used on routes that once had longer trains, and full of airline seats with bad legroom. Some of the Voyagers are even quite smooth and quiet for DEMUs.

 

I'd hate though for fundamentally sound vehicles (if they are fundamentally sound) to be condemned for needing facelifts; I've found it quite depressing in the past when people seem to have welcomed new stuff purely on that basis.

[pete_mcfarlane]

You hear the occasional (politically influenced) comment about how EC are more 'efficient' than the commercial operators, so perhaps we now know one of the reasons why - less spend on maintenance. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

I could well imagine some Whitehall department preparing plans to lavish £ billions on resuming construction of the extensive but unworkable and never completed border defences at Berwick. I'm sure that, as with most other situations facing us, someone will turn that very situation into a problem which will then become a crisis followed by fiasco and farce.  

 

As we as a nation, have lost the necessary skills and expertise in that field, the tender for the border project has already put out within the EU.

Rumour has it that an Italian company, based in Rome, are the front runners for the contract.

Concerns have already been raised that the Rome based company's antecedents were involved with the consortia that previously walked off the job.

Indeed a scandal in the making !!

 

 

.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Going way off topic - George MacDonald Fraser's 'The border reivers' is well worth a read, and deals with the various illicit cross border activities. Mostly lifting of livestock (which obviously as a McFarlane I can't in the slightest bit condone.......)

[scorpion]

the ex EMT set is now the only set in East Coast grey, and it still has odd seats

[jjb1970]

On IEP nobody as yet knows what the train will be like to travel in so it is premature to start criticising it. The mock ups look promising and Hitachi's provenance as a manufacturer of very high quality trains offer cause for optimism, offset by the procurement process behind it. Something worth remembering is that nowadays many enthusiasts get misty eyed about the Mk.3 coach and hold it up as a benchmark. Now I think the Mk.3 coach is a wonderful piece of engineering, particularly in terms of crash worthiness and it has been a marvellous stalwart of British long distance inter-city travel. However it is worth remembering that the Mk.3 was not always the darling of the rail travelling community, being criticised for amongst other things the inter-city 70 seat, the high window line, the windows being out of alignment with 2nd class seats, air-con that often seemed to be way out of its supposed comfort setting and that smell of brake pads. All of those criticisms had some validity in my opinion, that doesn't alter my affection for the Mk.3 and it indicates that people get used to things and that initial impressions of a new train are not the whole story. Also, it may say as much about the trains that followed the Mk.3 as it does about the coach design in question. So whether or not the IEP will be a retrograde step, peddling water or an improvement I've no idea but I think we need to be open minded about it.

[jjb1970]

Going way off topic - George MacDonald Fraser's 'The border reivers' is well worth a read, and deals with the various illicit cross border activities. Mostly lifting of livestock (which obviously as a McFarlane I can't in the slightest bit condone.......)

 

Fully agree on the book recommendation. The Reiver's are a fascinating subject, I find it rather inexplicable that they have all but been forgotten about by most history books. Fraser's book is a wonderful book, combining serious historical research and analysis with the engaging and good humoured style that made him a successful novelist, it remains the best book by far on the subject IMO.

[Christopher125]

So why not just have all the vehicles at that height?

The floor height of the unpowered end vehicles is limited by the pantograph well, whereas a higher floor is needed in the rest to allow an underfloor engine where necessary.

 

Chris

[kenw]

They did not require spare capacity, E.C. chose not to lease the required stock and presented the turn round in policy as an economy.

There was no spare capacity within the fleet for the proposed all Lincoln services, it's hard pressed as it is.

Chose not to lease the additional stock? If there's some spare 125mph stock sitting somewhere available to lease I'm sure EC would love to know

[lmsforever]

Last time I had the misfortune to use the ECML it was an awful experience the coaches were claustrafobic and seemed dirty in contrast a Pendolino always seems brighter and much more welcoming ,but an HST is still the best to travel in.Looking at the mockups of the IEP interiors the brown seats and dull paint is being carried on from the current trains progress?

[kenw]

Capacity should improve if Scotrail get their way and EC will no longer run to Aberdeen/Inverness. The continuance to Glasgow from Edinburgh must surely be in its final years as with the new fast Glasgow-Edinburgh services, it is much quicker to change at Edinburgh rather than go the long way around via Carstairs. Both will allow earlier turn round at Edinburgh allowing an increase in unit availability on the KGX- ED section.

Mike Wiltshire

Much as Scotrail may wish otherwise, ending the through EC services to Aberdeen / Inverness is politically taboo

well, at least until tomorrow.

And passengers seem to prefer through trains

[kenw]

What on earth would the LNER have made of all this: electric to Queen Street shurely?

 

They wouldn't fit

(The intercity ones that is)

[royaloak]

However a common issue is very pungent brakes due to the pads being heavily worn, that is not, of course, a failure but it indicates just how close things are being run..

How does that work then?

I always thought the smell was just the brakes being used and getting hot and had nothing to do with how worn the brakes are!

Are you saying that my <cough> years of knowledge about mechanical things is wrong and the more the brakes wear the more they smell?

[kenw]

I now quote from East Coast News 17.06.2010

 

"Train operator East Coast has announced a number of amendments to the planned introduction of a new timetable from May 2011.

 

 Under the amendments, most of the planned London King's Cross -Lincoln services will now operate between King's cross and Newark, with one through train per day in each  direction between Lincoln and King's cross. As a consequence, it will not be necessary to introduce an additional fleet of trains (five Adelante class 180s), and the daily  service to and from Lincoln/King's Cross will be resourced from within the existing fleet.

 

 The amendments to the timetable changes proposed will result in a net saving of £9m per year compared to the original plans."

 

Their words, much as I recall them and conveyed in my post of 16/09/14.   

 

And the 180s werent particularly wanted, with their remarkable achievement of being less reliable than the 225s

(if you've seen my previous post on here about that)

Plus the fact, when they fail, there's nothing else can couple to them, so the main line's blocked for 3 hours,

while they find another one to move it. Have experience of that happening on more than one occasion. 

[Edwin_m]

Last time I had the misfortune to use the ECML it was an awful experience the coaches were claustrafobic and seemed dirty in contrast a Pendolino always seems brighter and much more welcoming ,but an HST is still the best to travel in.Looking at the mockups of the IEP interiors the brown seats and dull paint is being carried on from the current trains progress?

By contrast I find the 225 sets perfectly acceptable for any of the journeys I have used them for recently including as far as Newark to Glasgow.  But I find the Pendolino sets very claustrophobic with their small windows, wide blank spaces between them, and abundance of nicotine brown interior finishes.  So just a matter of personal opinion. 

[Glorious NSE]

For all that I don't see an entire fleet of 180s sat around off lease waiting for nothing to happen, indeed the five that EC returned to Angel found a home with GW as far as I can remember who were not all that impressed with the things anyway if what has been written on a number of occasions is to be believed.

 

If it's the only suitable train available it's the one that'll end up getting used...

[Reorte]

And the 180s werent particularly wanted, with their remarkable achievement of being less reliable than the 225s

(if you've seen my previous post on here about that)

Plus the fact, when they fail, there's nothing else can couple to them, so the main line's blocked for 3 hours,

while they find another one to move it. Have experience of that happening on more than one occasion. 

Is there ever going to be a move back to some standard coupling, even if it's just something additional that can only be used in emergencies? The lack of it seems like one of the more insane aspects of the modern railway.

[kenw]

If it's the only suitable train available it's the one that'll end up getting used...

.... Or, even, the only train that's available.

Wasn't their reliability issues the reason that GW got shot of them in the first place?

 

EC's hard pressed fleet wise due to providing additional services for increased demand.

Besides reliability issues, having the 5-car 180s would have caused mayhem at times of disruption,

when they couldn't be 'lifted up', or swapped onto other services like the sets now operating the Newark service can.

[Reorte]

Even if retrofitting existing stock is completely impractical surely there should be a standard that anything new has to be built to? It won't return us to the days where anything could move anything else for many years but will get there eventually.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Out of interest, what kind of couplers with the class 800/801 units have? I'm assuming there's a coupler under the nose cone, as with the Javelin units. 

[Glorious NSE]

Even if retrofitting existing stock is completely impractical surely there should be a standard that anything new has to be built to? It won't return us to the days where anything could move anything else for many years but will get there eventually.

 

I think the trouble is that different parts of the rail industry have very different needs, which are fundamentally incompatible with each other.

 

Freight operators for the most part need something that is cheap, simple (mechanically,) and compatible with almost any wagon or hauled coach across all of Europe.

 

Passenger operators want something that is simple (operationally) - including all neccesary MU connections, can connect/disconnect at the touch of a button from the safety of a cab, quickly, cleanly, and without the added expense of employing folk in dirty orange overalls to hang around anywhere you might ever consider coupling/uncoupling something...

 

So, I think "everything compatible with everything" isn't practical, it won't happen as it's against the industry's needs to try and make it so.

 

That doesn't (I would suggest) excuse the reality that we've now got lots of different incompatible automatic ones, including trains with the same couplers but mounted at different incompatible heights for instance...Working on anything with an autocoupler being able to at least do a basic rescue of any other train with an autocoupler might be worth the time and effort...

 

Though it could end up with local fleets being incompatible with each other within the fleet in the medium (c. 40 yrs) term as new ones are introduced, and/or restrict technological development (That's better tech, but we can't use it as it's not compatible with stuff it'll never run with...)?

[Christopher125]

Is there ever going to be a move back to some standard coupling, even if it's just something additional that can only be used in emergencies? The lack of it seems like one of the more insane aspects of the modern railway.

The Scharfenburg/Dellner style coupling has been the de-facto standard for new multiple units for some time now, they are even being fitted to the re-engineered SWT 458s so they can couple to Desiros in emergencies.

 

Chris