Coach bogie Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't think anybody is considering IEP for Cross Country - like it or not the Voyagers have a good few years life in them yet. Adding a pantograph car starts to make a lot of sense for Voyagers, as these spend a lot of time under the wires now and will do so even more so in future as electrification spreads, but it will be a very long time before many of the routes are electrified end to end. I agree, voyagers will be around for some time, but at ten years old they are rapidly approaching half life refurbishment requirements and in what form a long term replacement will be, needs to be considered. If the Hitachi site or any other rail facility is to be built, the replacement of current trains in 10/15/20 years must projected to make any new construction/repair industry viable, otherwise we will see a one project plant and will only receive the short term investment to match. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2012 Voyagers should have at least another 20 years life in them. The biggest issue with them is the loadings that they have to cope with. If these keep growing you have to question whether they should be on the crosscountry routes. If that is the case then the IEP might be a suitable replacement for them here. I suspect that other operators would like to get their hands on the Voyagers for some of the regional routes such as Cardiff - Portsmouth etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 According to Wikipedia the first Pendolino was build in 1969, so they were actually there first. However it does say Fiat acquired the patents for the APT bogie in 1982 though it's not clear how much they used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The main reason to support this is that some lines over which these units will be used will not be electrified in the short or medium term. In this time the HST's will be life expired and will need replacing. IEP is not a HST replacement! They will still be required for the South West for the forseeable future. I notice that someone concluded that DfT must have looked at the business case for electrification - remember that IEP was conceived back in the 'bionic duckweed' era when electrification was seen as irrelevant with trains to be powered by hydrogen cells, and they were still planning to buy 200 DMU's. Andrew Adonis then came along, scrapped the DMU order, announced GW and NW electrification and ordered the Foster review of IEP - whose conlusions were widely viewed to be the death knell for the order. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2012 IEP is not a HST replacement! They will still be required for the South West for the forseeable future. The IEP is an HST replacement, maybe not for every route but given that these trains will replace the majority of HSTs on the Great Western franchise and the East Coast franchise they can only be consider to be an HST replacement. What happens to the HST's in the far South West will be intriguing. I would expect to see some sort of decision on what will replace these coming within the first 5 years of the new Great Western franchise by this time we will have some idea as to how the IEP program is working out. If there have been no nasty surprises or problems with this then it would amaze me if the IEP was not a strong contender to replace the HST down here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 To remind people, FGW have already stated that some 16 sets will be kept for west of EX and have a refresh "better suited to the distance travelled" AND they have admitted that the current one was unsuitable being "impressed with the other option". Even the" possability" of CET/plug-slide doors. They will be expected to last until the near end of the 15 year franchise. AS per Railways of Cornwall section, "New franchise - new stock? No way" thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The bi mode concept was originally based on 5 car (26m) units with three out of the five powered by the equivalent power output of a voyager engine (750hp). Not quite. The original bi-mode requirement did not specify how the bidders were to design the train, or in what configuration the power and traction requirements would be deployed in the design. Hitachi's winning interpretation was the SET, which employed power sources in the driving vehicles at either end; either diesel or electric. This provided the 3 configurations required in the spec. 1. all-electric = two electric pantograph transformer equipped driving vehicles 2. self-powered (diesel) = two diesel generator driving vehicles 3. bi-mode = one electric and one diesel driving vehicle In this original form, there was to be only one large diesel engine in the bi-mode and not the multiple underfloor engines that were introduced to the mix when the project went right off the rails. By far the greatest issue I have is that the deal has been done with Hitachi, prior to all the spec changes, which are still happening. The IEP or SET as it then was known as, is a totally different train to that which all the bidders originally submitted outline tenders for. This is quite true. The train being talked about now, is quite different to what was proposed by Hitachi to meet the specification. Hitachi's SET proposal won the preferred bidder competition. The botched interpretation that the DafT have since influenced, did not win that competition and bears little resemblance to the original SET design. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 At least something positive is coming out of this IEP fiasco,Voyager will be a versatile unit and maybe have an extended life in service given the convaluted gestation period that the DAFT people put in place to build new trains.Daft should be saying to any prospective franchisee what are you going to provide in the way of rolling stock station upgrades service levels instead of micromanaging everything.Even the bus bandits can come up with inovation when pushed,and they need the backing of of experienced railway men and women,only then will we get a decent service.FGW seem to be trying hard to address the problems left by previous management and should be looked on favorably ,DB seem to be next in the running but hopefully they wont run things like Arriva Wales.Overall its going to be very interesting to see what happens,one question whats it like when staff have to start working for new franchisees? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Sorry guys got mixed up at the end of above post it should have been on another post,sorry guys got carried away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 The East Coast batch were confirmed as ordered on Radio 2 news today. kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted July 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2013 The East Coast batch were confirmed as ordered on Radio 2 news today. kev. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/east-coast-main-line-iep-train-order-confirmed.html Looks like there will the same old 'airline' seating with blocked view from half the windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 So what happens to the IC225 sets, if scrap then the HST will outlive its own replacement albeit with a different engine under the bonnet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I am always confused with these new train orders. Can anyone more informed answer this question? WHO have Hitachi signed a deal with as current stock appears to be owned by the leasing companies, yet there is no mention of any leasing company in any of the PR I have seen recently who, in theory, will have to pay for them. It was not that long ago that the leasing companies expressed a desire for Pendolino variants on the East Coast at a fraction of the cost of IEP's. My wife is a frequent user of trains tp Aberdeen, and there appears to be a long term Scot Rail desire to redraw the franchise map and control all trains north of Edin/Glas requiring a change of train for any service north of these hubs. If this happens then the Biomode will be redundant on the EC services which will only travel as far as Edinburgh. I cannot see the EC services to Glasgow continuing long term as it is much quicker (and cheaper) to change trains and use the new electrified route to Queen St.. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Interesting that the Hitachi Newton Aycliffe factory is still be quoted for use for export orders if they should ever appear, even though Hitachi has been rumored to be considering building factories in other EU countries if they win orders from the respective Government(s)! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 So what happens to the IC225 sets, if scrap then the HST will outlive its own replacement albeit with a different engine under the bonnet. There is a lot more electrification on the cards. I'm sure they can be cascaded onto something else. Of course they will fit into the New Zealand loading gauge..... Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 The last line from the Railway Gazette article is interesting. "The electric-only SET sets have been designated Class 801, while the bi-mode electro-diesel trainsets will be Class 800." Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Is it true that electro-diesel trainsets will have their diesel engine running even under the wires? XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 19, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2013 There are two sides to IEP, the train itself, and the process that created it. I find the process that created it is almost as if somebody distilled everything that is bad about the modern railway into a single project and called it IEP. There are just so many appalling aspects to the way it has been developed that somebody who is good at writing really should write a book about it. However, on the train itself, despite my reservations about whether it is the right train for what is needed, the politics, the cost etc etc I have every confidence that the quality and performance of the train will be excellent, as the Japanese don't have a reputation for outstanding engineering without reason. I work in another transport industry but for what it is worth I have found Japanese projects a joy to work with, their anal attention to quality and the standard of work has been consistently higher than any others I've worked with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 the way it has been developed that somebody who is good at writing really should write a book about it. So the anti-Two Miles A Minute? Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 There are two sides to IEP, the train itself, and the process that created it. I find the process that created it is almost as if somebody distilled everything that is bad about the modern railway into a single project and called it IEP. There are just so many appalling aspects to the way it has been developed that somebody who is good at writing really should write a book about it. However, on the train itself, despite my reservations about whether it is the right train for what is needed, the politics, the cost etc etc I have every confidence that the quality and performance of the train will be excellent, as the Japanese don't have a reputation for outstanding engineering without reason. I work in another transport industry but for what it is worth I have found Japanese projects a joy to work with, their anal attention to quality and the standard of work has been consistently higher than any others I've worked with. I have worked at a company that was an agent for a Japanese company in the UK and the quality of there products, processes and discipline of their staff was amazingly good! However the IEP project is full of politics has not been thought through, not liked by the operators and is horrendously expensive. The whole project is a disaster movie in the making with the proposed GW mainline 5 car sets unwanted by the current franchise owner and not fit for purpose on this route. It be interesting to see how the politicians will blame each other in the future for all the IEPcups!; still it could have been worse they could have gone to Ansolda Breda for these trains XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Is it true that electro-diesel trainsets will have their diesel engine running even under the wires? Er, no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Wasn't the idea that the bi-mode IEP was underpowered and wouldn't meet the performance requirements part of the general rubbishing of the Hitachi offering that took place a couple of years back? Possibly motivated by the trains not being built in a certain East midlands city? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Wasn't the idea that the bi-mode IEP was underpowered and wouldn't meet the performance requirements part of the general rubbishing of the Hitachi offering that took place a couple of years back? Possibly motivated by the trains not being built in a certain East midlands city? Nothing to do with Bombardier: I recall Hitachi explaining that, in order to meet the level of performance required, the diesel engines would be needed at some points even under the wires to provide sufficient power. This was in one of the earlier, more insane manifestations of the project. I have no idea where the SET design has got to, but I was not heartened by the PR puff spouted by the Hitachi boss about how much customers loved their 395s and how the SET was based closely on them. Some people may indeed love the 395s but not all customers: this one particularly hated the seats aligned with a solid wall, and the prison-style toilets where the door opened directly opposite a seating area - which for me is about as disgustingly low-rent as you can get with a train design. I hope the lessons from that have been learned. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I am always confused with these new train orders. Can anyone more informed answer this question? WHO have Hitachi signed a deal with as current stock appears to be owned by the leasing companies, yet there is no mention of any leasing company in any of the PR I have seen recently who, in theory, will have to pay for them. It was not that long ago that the leasing companies expressed a desire for Pendolino variants on the East Coast at a fraction of the cost of IEP's. Hitachi (well, the Agility Trains consortium (I think?)) are the leasing company as I understand it. That's what's a little different in all of this, so naturally the existing leasing companies were looking for other solutions. This is why Hitachi are building maintenance facilities as part of the deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 From Cock O' the North to Cock Up O' the North! Gresley will be turning in his grave! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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