Hornby Push Pull Set R4534

[Robin Brasher]

The Stationmaster is certainly right about expierience and competence. The SVR has been passing drivers and firemen out on the GW auto trailers for ordinary workings.  There is a restriction the firemen can only be senior firemen or passed firemen and must be passed out by the Inspectorate to be competent to be left on the footplate by themselfs while the driver is driving from the coach. You need an awful lot of trust, becuase you can't see the water, pressure, where the reverser is or blow the brakes off quickly, you are totally reliant on the fireman.  We will still have 2 drivers on a driving schools though, one in the coach and one on the engine as driving schools need an even higher degree of concentration and it is easier to be distracted if not carefull.

Last night members of the Isle of Purbeck Model Railway Group were talking about whether the Swanage Railway should borrow a GWR pull push fitted engine and an auto coach for practice in running a Maunsell Pull-Push Set with the M7. According to page 14 of the Spring 2014 issue 103 of Swanage Railway Magazine work is due to commence shortly on the restoration at Rampart of Maunsell open thirds 1381 and 1346 so it looks like some progress is being made toward recreating a Maunsell pull-push service. This weekend M7 30053 should be running with a pair of heritage Bulleid coaches which have been splendidly restored. 

[rembrow]

Why is Hattons selling set A at £2 less than set B ?

 

I believe the reason for the price difference is that the set R4534A was announced in 2012, as an extra item for that year following the early sell out of R4534. The retailer I have one ordered from confirms it is on his 2012 back order list. The RRP at that time was £74.99, which it carried through to the 2013 price list, whereas R4534B was first listed in 2013 and with a higher RRP of £77.25. One very positive feature of Hornby practice, is that the price they charge the retailer is normally fixed by the wholesale price at the time of the retailers order, so if ordered in 2012 or 2013 the A item will still be sold to the retailer at the wholesale price applicable at that time, which was lower than the B version. Some retailers pass this saving on delayed models to the customer, particularly for those who have preordered, so if you have preordered one or two years ago it is worth checking if the supplier is charging the current or historical price. 

[Robin Brasher]

An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King and published by OPC has a chapter about SR Maunsell Stock. It contains pictures, drawings and allocations. There is a photograph of Set 616 at Seaton Junction on 19 April 1963 with M7 30048. The book mentions that withdrawal of the last motor fitted M7s took place at the end of May 1964 but several of the pull-push sets remained in service until November 1963. Between those dates the sets were hauled by any available locomotive in Bournemouth shed

Edited March 13, 2014 by Robin Brasher

[ady77014]

I just got mine 'A' one. I'm very pleased with it.

 

Just wish I that a more 1950's Pull-Push set was available (like a 'Brighton set, or maybe LSWR 'emigrant' set).

 

Before anyone says it I know Kernow's gate set will be available one day but the were never seen in Sussex,

[Robin Brasher]

I believe the reason for the price difference is that the set R4534A was announced in 2012, as an extra item for that year following the early sell out of R4534. The retailer I have one ordered from confirms it is on his 2012 back order list. The RRP at that time was £74.99, which it carried through to the 2013 price list, whereas R4534B was first listed in 2013 and with a higher RRP of £77.25. One very positive feature of Hornby practice, is that the price they charge the retailer is normally fixed by the wholesale price at the time of the retailers order, so if ordered in 2012 or 2013 the A item will still be sold to the retailer at the wholesale price applicable at that time, which was lower than the B version. Some retailers pass this saving on delayed models to the customer, particularly for those who have preordered, so if you have preordered one or two years ago it is worth checking if the supplier is charging the current or historical price. 

I have been lucky. Rails of Sheffield charged me £58.50 for R4534A Set 616 and Hattons charged me £62 for R4534B Set 603 with £4 postage in each case so they represent excellent value for money. When R4534 first came out the price of £74.99 was relatively high at £74.99 as Hornby expected the demand to be low. The practice of these retailers in passing on the savings to the customer is commendable. I am particularly grateful to Hattons for keeping me informed of the progress of my order during the long wait for delivery.

[Butler Henderson]

I believe the reason for the price difference is that the set R4534A was announced in 2012, as an extra item for that year following the early sell out of R4534. The retailer I have one ordered from confirms it is on his 2012 back order list. The RRP at that time was £74.99, which it carried through to the 2013 price list, whereas R4534B was first listed in 2013 and with a higher RRP of £77.25. One very positive feature of Hornby practice, is that the price they charge the retailer is normally fixed by the wholesale price at the time of the retailers order, so if ordered in 2012 or 2013 the A item will still be sold to the retailer at the wholesale price applicable at that time, which was lower than the B version. Some retailers pass this saving on delayed models to the customer, particularly for those who have preordered, so if you have preordered one or two years ago it is worth checking if the supplier is charging the current or historical price.

 

The interesting thing is that the Hornby price has fallen back to £74.99 for the yet to be released R4534C. Hornby do tend to keep the original listed price for delayed items which means some big differences can occur with fully lined out locos cheaper than plain black ones and around £3 difference for a wagon in a different livery

[Bulleidboy100]

I have been quoted £68.65 for my pre-order of R4534C.

[Robin Brasher]

 

Top. Hornby M7 30111 with BSL Pull Push Set 608.

 

Middle. Hornby M7 repainted and modified 30108 with set 616.

 

Bottom. Hornby M7 with set 603.

 

 

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

It looks like R4534A Set 616 is becoming generally available now. The Swanage Station shop has got eight in stock. Will someone please remind me of the set number of R4534C which is due out later this year? I have seen it somewhere in this topic.

[Robin Brasher]

According to the caption on plate 172 on page 147 of An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King published by OPC Set 616 had yellow first class cantrail markings on 18 September 1964.

[Bulleidboy100]

It looks like R4534A Set 616 is becoming generally available now. The Swanage Station shop has got eight in stock. Will someone please remind me of the set number of R4534C which is due out later this year? I have seen it somewhere in this topic.

 I emailed Graham Muspratt about a month ago, about set numbers, and he spoke to Simon Kohler - the numbering for R4534A and R4534B were confirmed, but I got the impression the set number for R4534C was yet to be determined.

[tender]

My A variant (616) has just arrived and I must say I pity anyone wanting a pristine condition model if mines anything to go by. Its covered in grubby finger marks. If it wasn't going to get the weathering treatment I'd be sending it back. (Supplied by a well known Liverpool retailer)

[Hilux5972]

That's shocking to hear.

[Robin Brasher]

It looks like R4534A Set 616 has been selling well. It is out of stock at Hattons and Hornby and Rails have only got a few left. They are still in stock at Model Railway Direct and Gaugemaster. Local shops may still have them. For me it was a pleasant surprise to see eight of them at the Swanage Railway shop. There were seven left as I bought another one there. In the past for coaches I had waited for notification that they were available from Hattons and then bought them at the railway shop but I got caught out badly with pull-push R4534 and had to wait 1 year 8 months to get one. It is interesting that the running number of 6695 on the driving trailer coach of set 616 is the same as the running number of the BR WR 0-6-2T that often runs on the Swanage Railway.

[tender]

My A variant (616) has just arrived and I must say I pity anyone wanting a pristine condition model if mines anything to go by. Its covered in grubby finger marks. If it wasn't going to get the weathering treatment I'd be sending it back. (Supplied by a well known Liverpool retailer)

 

 

 

It looks like R4534A Set 616 has been selling well. It is out of stock at Hattons

Maybe I got the last one out of the display case 

[90rob]

Strange 616 seems to be outselling 603 - for anyone who needs encouragement to buy the later, there was a good 7mm version of it on the totally wonderful Hampshire branch line layout 'Hursley', which featured in Railway Modeller in November 1990. Not that anyone would be making a model of a model of course.....!

[andyman7]

Strange 616 seems to be outselling 603 - for anyone who needs encouragement to buy the later, there was a good 7mm version of it on the totally wonderful Hampshire branch line layout 'Hursley', which featured in Railway Modeller in November 1990. Not that anyone would be making a model of a model of course.....!

that might be because it is cheaper (by some margin at MRD....)

[90rob]

that might be because it is cheaper (by some margin at MRD....)

Goodness....I was looking at the Liverpool people.....

[tender]

My A variant (616) has just arrived and I must say I pity anyone wanting a pristine condition model if mines anything to go by. Its covered in grubby finger marks. If it wasn't going to get the weathering treatment I'd be sending it back. (Supplied by a well known Liverpool retailer)

 

..............and the B variant (603) is just as grubby as the A (616)

[Robin Brasher]

Set 603 arriving at Swanage propelled by M7 30057 which is sandwiched between the Maunsell set and an unidentified strengthening coach. Good Friday April 12 1963. Photograph copyright George Moon.

[railroadbill]

Having missed out the first time around, I bought R4534A (unit 616) from Model Railways Direct. Cost £59.75 and delivered by trusty postman the day after I'd ordered it. (No connection with MRD except for being a satisfied customer).  Coaches in perfect condition, no fingerprints and they do run very freely.  They've been trundling round the layout propelled by an M7 - they do look great. 

 

So I've been reading up some books on SR branch lines, loads of photos but a couple of questions have been raised in my mind. They is obviously a lot of knowledge and expertise about push/pull units on this thread, so I'm hoping someone will know the answers.

 

1. The previous post shows a push-pull set being pushed with another coach towed behind the loco. I've also seen a pic at Bramber station of set 601 in 1960 with a compartment third behind it (making a 3 coach rake) being propelled by an H class. Would the extra coach have needed to be modified to connect the air controls from the loco to the p&p set therefore it was a regular 3 coach set-  or was there some way of just coupling an extra coach in if needed?  The Driving compartment is definitely leading - white disk and no tail lamp, plus train is on left hand line.  Can't scan pic I'm afraid, cos it's in an OPC  book.

 

2. Push pull locos like M7 and H have 2 air pipes for push pull control to the right of the coupling hook (looking at smokebox) mounted below the buffer beam. Since pipes are at both ends of loco,  I'm supposing that a loco could be coupled to a push pull unit with the smokebox next to the rear coach, ie pushing running forwards rather than backwards..  Was this a regular occurance? They usually seem to be photographed with bunker to coach, though.

 

 

ed for typos

Edited March 21, 2014 by railroadbill

[Robin Brasher]

I do not know enough about the subject to give a definitive answer.

 

1) Some of the strengthening coaches were motor fitted. On the Swanage Railway S1096S was the regular strengthening coach until it was damaged in a shunting accident in 1962. This was motor fitted and could run between the locomotive and the pull-push set. It was two old SECR 6-wheeler bodies on a new SR under-frame with match-boarded sides. See George Moon's caption on plate 48 of Swanage Railway Album. I think an open second was also motor fitted which ran somewhere else. If this was the case you could have two open seconds and the driving trailer.

 

On the Swanage Railway two Mk1s or two Bulleid coaches from the Royal Wessex were attached to the M7 with pull-coaches at Wareham and were probably attached as ordinary coaches. The attached coaches had carriage crests and the Royal Wessex was the only southern steam train to carry carriage crests.

 

2) I have heard that the motor fitted locomotives could run smoke-box against the pull-push coaches and be operated from the leading coach. I have not seen any photographs of this.

 

I hope that this helps.

[railroadbill]

I do not know enough about the subject to give a definitive answer.

 

1) Some of the strengthening coaches were motor fitted. On the Swanage Railway S1096S was the regular strengthening coach until it was damaged in a shunting accident in 1962. This was motor fitted and could run between the locomotive and the pull-push set. It was two old SECR 6-wheeler bodies on a new SR under-frame with match-boarded sides. See George Moon's caption on plate 48 of Swanage Railway Album. I think an open second was also motor fitted which ran somewhere else. If this was the case you could have two open seconds and the driving trailer.

 

On the Swanage Railway two Mk1s or two Bulleid coaches from the Royal Wessex were attached to the M7 with pull-coaches at Wareham and were probably attached as ordinary coaches. The attached coaches had carriage crests and the Royal Wessex was the only southern steam train to carry carriage crests.

 

2) I have heard that the motor fitted locomotives could run smoke-box against the pull-push coaches and be operated from the leading coach. I have not seen any photographs of this.

 

I hope that this helps.

Thanks, Robin.  Just the info needed, gives a bit more operational flexibility to pull one or two  through coaches behind the set or indeed have a 3 coach push pull unit. 

[orcadian]

My set arrived from Hornby yesterday (R4534B).  On very close examination, looking obliquely along all 4 coach sides, I can find some light finger-marks (or very,very slight paint ripples) near the ends. This might suggest that the models were handled just a bit too soon after the end of the spraying session.  The marks/ripples are not significant; at a first glance at right angles to the coaches, they don't show up.

 

So I'll keep it, and give it some very gentle rubbing down, in preparation either to varnish the set (in true S. Reg style!) or weather it. I'll decide which route to follow some time later.

 

I know some would say that any less-than-perfect models should be returned to Hornby, but this, to my eyes, seems to be a slight imperfection from a new production line on which the workers are still honing their skills.  I know that I've put far worse finger prints, and made far larger ripples when I've tried using spray cans on some model vans and road vehicles!  As we know that SK (and possible other Hornby staff) visit this Forum, and that Hornby are getting some models returned to them, I'm not going to make a big deal out of it!

 

Richard.

Edited March 22, 2014 by orcadian

[Robin Brasher]

The Swanage Railway shop has now sold out of R4534A Set 616 as has Hornby, Buffers and Rails of Sheffield but it is still available at Hattons, Antics on Line and Gaugemaster. A lot have come up on Ebay so it looks like some people have been making speculative purchases. R4534B Set 603 seems to be more widely available. Osborn's says it is a limited edition of 1,100 pieces.