Bath Queen Square

[queensquare]

The first day of 2023 was thoroughly wet and miserable so, other than a stomp with the dogs, we spent the day in front of the fire with a couple of old films and the last of the Christmas fair. I fiddled away on the details for the coal stage - not too much more to go before it can join the painting queue though that will all have to wait for some drier weather.

Back to paid work tomorrow.

 

Jerry

 

[phil_sutters]

[queensquare]

8 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

That’s a lovely picture Phil, many thanks for posting

 

Jerry

[phil_sutters]

36 minutes ago, queensquare said:

That’s a lovely picture Phil, many thanks for posting

 

Jerry

Thanks for sharing all the brilliant work on your layouts.

I don't know where the print came from. I have an album, given to me by my father for my 21st, with all the official Derby photos I have in it. I have had that photo loose in it for as long as I can remember, so Dad probably bought it for me.

[Robert Shrives]

Great pic of a time long gone, looking at the age of the two on the running plate alone hints of a harder life and sobering thought perhaps that WW1 was only 4 years away - did all these young men survive? 

In better happier thoughts happy new year and thanks for all the updates on the layout.

Robert  

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

Thanks for sharing all the brilliant work on your layouts.

I don't know where the print came from. I have an album, given to me by my father for my 21st, with all the official Derby photos I have in it. I have had that photo loose in it for as long as I can remember, so Dad probably bought it for me.

Thanks Phil. It’s interesting to note when looking at your 1910 picture all the slight changes that were made to the building over the years. Most pictures of the building have a loco in the way, often wreathed in steam, so picking out details isn’t always easy and I’ve spent hours staring into old pictures of this and other structures st Bath.

 

The opening out onto the platform at the end where all the coal tubs were lined up is a case in point. I have a few earlier pictures which show no opening, indeed no platform. Your c.1910 picture has a small opening and what looks to be replacement planking on the end. My 1920s pictures show a much bigger opening and also some sort of additional lean-to on the coal road side which I may add later if a better picture turns up. Post WW2 pictures show the building looking as though it’s ready to fall down with missing planks and corrugate tin patches all over the place- a new brick and block coal stage was built in the mid 50s.

 

I’ve really enjoyed this bit of plastic whittling so will continue on for now- there’s a host of small sheds and other building dotted around the shed yard. Then there’s the ash gantry which can be seen in many pictures and of course the barn like S&D shed itself which is a rather big place holder at the moment……

 

Jerry

 

[phil_sutters]

The photo is dated purely by the fact that the reboilering had taken place before it was taken. It could have been later than 1910.

[queensquare]

7 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

The photo is dated purely by the fact that the reboilering had taken place before it was taken. It could have been later than 1910.

Morning Phil, everything about the picture suggests your date of c.1910 is probably about right. It’s certainly no earlier and I would suggest definitely pre-WW1

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

Club on Monday evening saw the last few details added to the S&D coal stage which is now ready for painting. These couple of snaps of it in place next to the mocked up S&D shed are rather pleasing - I don’t think my various guesstimates are too far out.

 

 

There’s a bit too much of my very simplified interior in view on the open side for my liking so I think I will probably add the tin and timber extension and screen which looks to have been in place in the 20s. the corrugated iron will provide a nice contrast with the slate and timber.

Does anybody know of a half descent view of it?

 

Jerry

 

Edited to note that the cropped picture I’ve added is post 36, the small turntable and Midland coal stage having been removed.

J

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by queensquare

[queensquare]

More plasticard whittling this evening - the sand furnace and surrounding huts and bunkers. Lots of guesswork but hopefully it will capture the busy feel of the shed yard.

 

 

Pictures from my 1920s period are scarce - there is usually an engine in the way. I’m not sure what the arrangement was at the bottom of the sand furnace chimney, I shall probably brick it in.

The final, very grainy picture shows more bunkers in the foreground and also a good shot of how the coal stacks were constructed. Anyone any idea what the large white lumps in the nearest bunker are - they’re not whitewashed coal.

 

Jerry

 

[65179]

Looking good Jerry. What have you used for the corrugated iron?

 

Thanks,

Simon 

[queensquare]

13 hours ago, 65179 said:

Looking good Jerry. What have you used for the corrugated iron?

 

Thanks,

Simon 

Hi Simon, the roof is from a Ratio water tower which looked to be about the right size. I have a coffee pot lid with serrated edges which I normally use to make corrugated  iron but this is some American stuff. I picked up a kit for a US goods warehouse of some sort on a second hand stall at a show for peanuts. Most of the contents were of little use but there were some nice little castings and several sheets of this foil.

 

Jerry

 

Edited to add a snap of the kit referred to. According to the box I paid £2 for it so a bargain!
 

Edited January 18, 2023 by queensquare

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jerry,

 

would the bottom of the chimney have an ash door? If you build a brick base you could incorporate one in that.

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

On 05/01/2023 at 15:30, queensquare said:

 

Hum. I wonder whose wagon that is, with a 4 or 5-digit number on the end? Or is it a 4-digit number with a superscript? Probably a 12-tonner from one of the large colliery companies?

 

Is there any evidence for the provenance of the S&DJR's coal supplies at Bath?

[queensquare]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Jerry,

 

would the bottom of the chimney have an ash door? If you build a brick base you could incorporate one in that.

 

Jol

Morning Jol, I think there probably would be and if nothing similar to give me a clue comes up that’s what I will do. 
The only glimpse I have of the base at that end of the sand furnace is this grainy, cropped shot which appears to have its own chimney so is completely separate.

Its an area about a quarter inch square toward the back of a twenty foot long model but I rather enjoy peering into the depths of 100 or so year old pictures to try and work out what was there - it’s a great hobby!

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

[queensquare]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. I wonder whose wagon that is, with a 4 or 5-digit number on the end? Or is it a 4-digit number with a superscript? Probably a 12-tonner from one of the large colliery companies?

 

Is there any evidence for the provenance of the S&DJR's coal supplies at Bath?

Morning Stephen. The cropped picture you are referring to is post WW2 so the wagon would be common user so could be almost anything.
For earlier times I have some wagon labels from the Somerset Collieries to the loco dept at Bath and Donald Beale in his memoirs talks about pinching  a few tubs of northern coal from the Midland stage so at least some of the coal was locally sourced.

I have a few pictures showing PO wagons on the S&D coal road, I will dig them out and post them later.

 

Jerry

Edited to add a couple of pictures. The pre WW1 shots show MR wagons, I also have but couldn’t immediately find some with SDJR loco coal wagons which is not surprising. I have one with an LNWR loco coal wagon which has obviously been borrowed!

The 1920s picture has some PO wagons - W.D.BARNETT? Any further info?

Jerry

Edited January 18, 2023 by queensquare

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

The pre WW1 shots show MR wagons

 

From Bradley & Milton I learn that Vulcan 0-4-4T No. 53 was reboilered in March 1905; as I understand it this would be with a boiler with Deeley dome and oval brass saftey-valve cover, so the date is certainly earlier than that; the chimney is the built-up style which on Midland engines usually indicates 1880s to early 90s but I've no Idea whether the same applied at Highbridge. Did they cast their own chimneys or have them sent down from Derby? (This same photo is in Bradley & Milton, p. 135.)

 

Scottie No. 27, another Scouser,* is recorded as re-boilered twice before the end of the 19th century - would that affect appearance at all? Did the clack valves move about between boilers? (I note this was not one rebuilt with a boiler with Deeley-style fittings. The tender appears not to have coal rails. There is a photo of the other side of No. 27 in Bradley & Milton, p. 154, also with coal rail-less tender. Playing spot-the-difference, I note that in that photo the chimney is the built-up-type, whereas your photo shows the one-piece type, so perhaps after the 1892 reboilering, or certainly after the 1899 one. 

 

Bradley & Milton say initials on tank and tender sides started to be applied about 1894; No. 27 has them but not No. 53, so if one supposes the two photos were taken on the same day, a date in the mid-90s seems reasonable. Or the photo of No. 53 might be reasonable.

 

The point of all this rambling is that although engines do get in the way in photographs, they can be useful for dating, and here we have Midland ex-PO wagons in use for loco coal traffic, along with one standard 8-ton open (aka D299), above No. 27's tender. There were certainly plenty of ex-PO wagons in the Midland fleet in the mid-90s; the question is, by when did they disappear? (I think I know the answer but I doubt the last survivors were these small 4-plank wagon that might not even be of 8 tons capacity.) Does the use of Midland wagons indicate the the coal has come from the north?

 

The Midland did not set aside and letter wagons specifically for loco coal until 1900 (though it may have been doing so in the 1870s). It's interesting, therefore, that the eighty 10-ton wagons of the D301 type built by Derby as loco coal wagons for the S&DJR were ordered in January 1902. That is, assuming they went straight into loco coal traffic - that's not specified either in the lot list or the Midland C&W Committee minute authorising the work, No. 3995 of 16 Jan 02. (These were a stop-gap type, a 10-ton wagon using material prepared for 8-ton wagons.)

 

*is that a valid term for a native of Newton-le-Willows, or would it be vehemently repudiated?

 

2 hours ago, queensquare said:

The 1920s picture has some PO wagons - W.D.BARNETT? Any further info?

 

The firm of W.D. Barnett is briefly mentioned in Turton's Twelfth Collection, in the course of an article about Charles Roberts. This shows Barnett's No. 703 in illustration of Chas. Roberts' 14 ton slope-sided all-steel wagon, one of a batch of ten supplied to the firm in 1943. (There's a Bachmann model which looks accurate to me but I don't know much about such modern wagons.) The firm had an office address in Westminster and were listed in the 1938 Colliery Year Book as coal exporters and shippers, so I suppose we can infer that they were a reasonably large coal factor in business at least throughout the inter-war period. Can't see any numbers in the photo but there are at least three of them (in the full version of the photo you PM'd me.)

 

You also PM'd a photo which I take to be 1930s - is that a Crab on the left? The wagon on the coaling stage line appears to be lettered NE, but that doesn't signify much, given pooling. 

[queensquare]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You also PM'd a photo which I take to be 1930s - is that a Crab on the left? The wagon on the coaling stage line appears to be lettered NE, but that doesn't signify much, given pooling. 

Thanks Stephen, a really helpful response.

I’ve posted pretty much all of the 1930s picture you refer to in various cropped forms ( I’m wary of copyright).

On the extreme right is the 42’ turntable well partly dismantled (see several pages back) which dates the picture to 1936 or there abouts. 
The loco on the left is a large boilered 7F.

 

Jerry

 

[Sithlord75]

2 hours ago, queensquare said:

Edited to add a couple of pictures. The pre WW1 shots show MR wagons, I also have but couldn’t immediately find some with SDJR loco coal wagons which is not surprising. I have one with an LNWR loco coal wagon which has obviously been borrowed!

The 1920s picture has some PO wagons - W.D.BARNETT? Any further info?

Jerry

 

A LNWR Loco Coal Wagon could be "loaned" quite easily should you require!

 

I'll include a painted and lettered body in the parcel which is almost ready to send over.

 

WD Barnett can be arranged too if there is a clear photo of one of their wagons.

 

Cheers

Kevin

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Sithlord75

[queensquare]

2 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

A LNWR Loco Coal Wagon could be "loaned" quite easily should you require!

 

I'll include a painted and lettered body in the parcel which is almost ready to send over.

 

WD Barnett can be arranged too if there is a clear photo of one of their wagons.

 

Cheers

Kevin

 

 

That would be fantastic, many thanks Kevin. Unfortunately, the picture of the Barnett wagons on the coal road at Bath are the best I have - I will put some feelers out and see what I can find.

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, queensquare said:

The loco on the left is a large boilered 7F.

 

Doh. Of course. This is the S&D shed not the Midland shed...

[65179]

7 minutes ago, queensquare said:

That would be fantastic, many thanks Kevin. Unfortunately, the picture of the Barnett wagons on the coal road at Bath are the best I have - I will put some feelers out and see what I can find.

 

Jerry

 

Worth finding someone with the 12th volume (collection) in Keith Turton's magnum opus. Hopefully it has more than the HMRS collection which (online)  only has a wartime (that's WWII for those of you stuck even further in the past than I am 😉 )slope sided mineral with owner indicated in the small lettering of the period.

 

Simon

[queensquare]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Doh. Of course. This is the S&D shed not the Midland shed...

Indeed Stephen although, to be fair, post 1930, both exS&D and MR locos used the lower shed, the old two road midland shed being mainly used for maintenance and boiler washouts.

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Worth finding someone with the 12th volume (collection) in Keith Turton's magnum opus. Hopefully it has more than the HMRS collection which (online)  only has a wartime (that's WWII for those of you stuck even further in the past than I am 😉 )slope sided mineral with owner indicated in the small lettering of the period.

 

Ding!

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The firm of W.D. Barnett is briefly mentioned in Turton's Twelfth Collection, in the course of an article about Charles Roberts. This shows Barnett's No. 703 in illustration of Chas. Roberts' 14 ton slope-sided all-steel wagon, one of a batch of ten supplied to the firm in 1943. (There's a Bachmann model which looks accurate to me but I don't know much about such modern wagons.) The firm had an office address in Westminster and were listed in the 1938 Colliery Year Book as coal exporters and shippers, so I suppose we can infer that they were a reasonably large coal factor in business at least throughout the inter-war period. Can't see any numbers in the photo but there are at least three of them (in the full version of the photo you PM'd me.)

 

[65179]

That's a shame. The Bachmann model is pretty accurate, I think, with the correct pressed steel door. It being the same design that was supplied to the MWT/MoT and became BR diagram 1/100.  Some of these same wagons were delivered in full DENABY 'livery'. 

 

All a bit late for Jerry!

 

Simon

Edited January 18, 2023 by 65179