Bath Queen Square

[queensquare]

More info on the Barnett wagons has come to light but for now, evidence that the S&D did, at least in part, use local coal. I’ve never seen any pictures of Somerset coal field PO wagons on the coal road so perhaps the S&D used their own loco coal wagons - I haven’t got any of those, may need to build some for Bath and the colliery!

 

Jerry

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by queensquare

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

More info on the Barnett wagons has come to light but for now, evidence that the S&D did, at least in part, use local coal. I’ve never seen any pictures of Somerset coal field PO wagons on the coal road so perhaps the S&D used their own loco coal wagons - I haven’t got any of those, may need to build some for Bath and the colliery!

 

You have the misfortune to be modelling the S&DJR after the wagon stock was divided between the owning companies in 1914. Were the loco coal wagons retained in S&DJR stock?

[bécasse]

That label, and its mention of a demurrage charge, rather suggests that it was intended for use on a wagon owned by the colliery, printed using standing type with the printer just adding two lines of type to to an otherwise blank space to define the consignee (in this case the S&DJR's Loco Department).

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, bécasse said:

That label, and its mention of a demurrage charge, rather suggests that it was intended for use on a wagon owned by the colliery, printed using standing type with the printer just adding two lines of type to to an otherwise blank space to define the consignee (in this case the S&DJR's Loco Department).

 

So in this case, the colliery company is charging demurrage on its wagons, to ensure their prompt return? I'd not though about that angle of the whole demurrage / siding rent charging system, but it makes sense. I wonder what redress a coal merchant had if a colliery held onto his wagon for too long?

[bécasse]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So in this case, the colliery company is charging demurrage on its wagons, to ensure their prompt return? I'd not though about that angle of the whole demurrage / siding rent charging system, but it makes sense. I wonder what redress a coal merchant had if a colliery held onto his wagon for too long?

Probably covered in the contract of sale for the coal. The advantage to a colliery of repeating it on the actual wagon label was that it reminded the recipient that time was indeed money in an era when, in general, the only coal storage that a merchant had was either "the ground" or the wagon it arrived in, the advantage of the latter being that less manual effort was required when filling bags because gravity helped rather than hindered.

 

Space for wagon "storage" wasn't a problem in most goods yards (except perhaps in urban areas) but would have a been a problem at many collieries so there was a self-interest incentive for collieries to turn incoming wagons round quickly (and they would have been paid that much faster too).

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Probably covered in the contract of sale for the coal. The advantage to a colliery of repeating it on the actual wagon label was that it reminded the recipient that time was indeed money in an era when, in general, the only coal storage that a merchant had was either "the ground" or the wagon it arrived in, the advantage of the latter being that less manual effort was required when filling bags because gravity helped rather than hindered.

 

Coal merchants could rent stacking ground on the railway premises or cart the coal straight way from the wagon. Either way they would incur siding rent charges from the railway company if the wagon hung around too long, as well as demurage payable to the wagon owner. (I've seen extracts from the Midland's Register of Coal Traders, organised as a list per station, with details of their stacking ground area and rental, also rental for huts.

[queensquare]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You have the misfortune to be modelling the S&DJR after the wagon stock was divided between the owning companies in 1914. Were the loco coal wagons retained in S&DJR stock?

Yes loco coal wagons remained in S&D stock after 1914 along with departmental stock, brake vans and, for some reason, peat wagons!

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

This little group is now ready for painting - basic but at just over 6” and toward the back of the layout perfectly adequate I think..

 

Jerry

 

[tapdieuk]

Looking good Jerry, you just need the SDJR shed.............

 

Test cuts on the digital Etch A Sketch. I will bring the samples along tommorrow.

 

 

 

[queensquare]

36 minutes ago, tapdieuk said:

Looking good Jerry, you just need the SDJR shed.............

 

Test cuts on the digital Etch A Sketch. I will bring the samples along tommorrow.

 

 

 

Can’t wait to see them Will. The placeholder S&D shed looked ok until I replaced all the placeholders surrounding it!

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

With Will’s laser cut parts for the shed on the horizon I suppose I will have to think about some track in the lower S&D yard at some point!

 

Jerry

 

[queensquare]

Just started re-reading this wonderful little book published by the S&D Trust, in particular the chapter on Donald’s memories of doing a shift “up the golden stairs” on the coal stage. 
I’ve yet to come across a picture (Donald has no idea how they got their name) but must have been tucked in to the left hand side in front of the S&D shed. From the description they sound to be a double flight with a 180 landing in the middle. At the top a door gave access to a small bothy with a stove , the chimney going up through the roof - all easy  enough to add, my guesstimates guaranteeing the emergence of a clear photo!

What was interesting was how Donald described lighting up ‘the stove’ using a couple of nuggets of ‘northern coal’ then building it up with good Welsh coal - no mention of Somerset coal at all.

I shall re-read the rest as a large chunk of the book covers Donald’s early career at Bath shed in the 20s in a most engaging way. Having spent a great deal of time lately peering into grainy old photos it may enlighten me as to what some of the multitude of huts, bins and other buildings were for.

 

Jerry

 

 

[CF MRC]

Welsh Dry Steam coal doesn’t start very easily, hence using something else to get a fire going. It could be that the Somerset coal wasn’t ideal for locos. 
 

Tim

[queensquare]

3 hours ago, CF MRC said:

Welsh Dry Steam coal doesn’t start very easily, hence using something else to get a fire going. It could be that the Somerset coal wasn’t ideal for locos. 
 

Tim

I think you’re right Tim. I’m sure in ‘Footplate over the Mendips’, Peter Smith’s account of Donald Beale’s early railway career at Bath there is a similar reference  to the unofficial pinching of coal from the adjacent Midland coal stage. The Midland stage was demolished in 1934 to make way for the new turntable but did the two stages continue to operate independently after 1930 I wonder - I suspect not.

 

As for Somerset coal, I know my mum wasn’t keen on using it as it gummed up the grate. Good gas coal though!

 

Jerry

[phil_sutters]

My understanding of the coal traffic, coming in through the SDJR's Highbridge Wharf from south Wales, is that it was mainly loco coal for its use and the LSWR. There are generally no PO wagons to be seen in photos of the Wharf itself. The COOP coal yard on the edge of the wharf can be seen with PO wagons on it, implying that it was not selling the coal arriving on the Wharf, a hundred yards south.

I have yet to see a SDJR wagon branded LOCO COAL. I have seen LMS LOCO COAL wagons on the wharf. In Chris Handley's book there is one wagon being loaded with coal from a coaster which has me puzzled. It has rounded ends, looks about 3 or 4 planks high and seems to be longer than the SDJR cattle wagons it is standing next to. It looks S&D in light grey with quite sharply defined black metal work. I am fairly sure it is not the 3 plank no.681* as that had central drop doors, rather than the full dropside shown in Chris Handley's  Wharf photo. (*Southern Wagons - Volume 1 page 91.)

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by phil_sutters

[queensquare]

I added my interpretation of the ‘golden stairs’ at club on Monday evening. I’ve not seen a picture but with such limited space between the coal stage and the shed there isn’t really any other way they could fit. I await a picture!

What I did come across was a picture of the rear of the sand furnace. My blank wall should in fact be a large opening with a fairly lightweight loading platform. Not too tricky to add -thankfully I found it before painting!

I’m demonstrating at the Southampton show this coming weekend and will have most of the projects I’ve been working on lately, including the turntable, Nancy and some of the Bath shed structures so do come and say hello.

Jerry

[queensquare]

I’ve had the soldering iron fired up this morning so at lunchtime I soldered up a few bits of wire and off cuts of rail and I now have the loading platform.

 

Jerry

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by queensquare

[queensquare]

The old rule that pictures appear once the model has been built seems to be holding strong. This glimpse of the ‘golden stairs’ has just turned up. Admittedly it’s after the old wooden coal stage had been rebuilt in brick and block but I suspect the configuration of the stairs wouldn’t have changed much. I’m not too far out!

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

On 23/01/2023 at 18:23, phil_sutters said:

I have yet to see a SDJR wagon branded LOCO COAL. 

 

Just picking up on this, the 80 10-ton wagons with lifting door flap, Nos. 1122-1201, built at Derby (like Midland D301) are, in Garner's Register, mostly listed as loco coal wagons, remaining in S&DJR livery after 1914, but I've yet to come across any evidence that they were intended for loco coal when ordered.

[Steve Smith]

If there's any sort of door I think you'd want a landing in front of it for safety and convenience - as seen on signal boxes.

 

It was the same with the chimney on the Verwood box and the skylight in the platform canopy.  I had to built both before I was sent the photos of how it actually was, but I'd still rather know that I'd got it wrong! 

:-)

 

 

[queensquare]

5 hours ago, Steve Smith said:

If there's any sort of door I think you'd want a landing in front of it for safety and convenience - as seen on signal boxes.

 

It was the same with the chimney on the Verwood box and the skylight in the platform canopy.  I had to built both before I was sent the photos of how it actually was, but I'd still rather know that I'd got it wrong! 

:-)

 

 

You're absolutely right Steve, even without seeing a picture I should have realised that a balcony was essential. Thankfully, the building is still at the flash of primer stage so at lunchtime I did a quick bit of cutting and carving. Once it’s set, a bit of cleaning up and another flash of primer and you won’t be able to see the join!

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

A couple of weekends ago I had some 2mm friends around for a show and tell session and to run a few trains - from the fiddle yard to Bath Junction junction and back.

Tom E took some snaps which he has kindly sent me. 

 

Swinging the station boards out has transformed the view along the layout as well as enabling views taken from the north platform.
Looking forward to it being warm enough to work down the shed in the evening so I can crack on with the track. The track under the roof is just led in place  - the cocktail stick and blu-tac pillars are also temporary!

 

 

 

As usual the Grand brothers brought some visiting locos which, as expected, ran beautifully. I shan’t embarrass myself by trying to remember what they are - Simon or Tony G will be along at some point to identify them!

 

 

Finally, one of my trains. I’m sometimes asked why I have made life hard for myself and stuck with the pre-1930 period.

A blue engine hauling red coaches - what’s not to like!

 

Jerry

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by queensquare

[65179]

23 hours ago, queensquare said:

A couple of weekends ago I had some 2mm friends around for a show and tell session and to run a few trains - from the fiddle yard to Bath Junction junction and back.

Tom E took some snaps which he has kindly sent me. 

 

Swinging the station boards out has transformed the view along the layout as well as enabling views taken from the north platform.
Looking forward to it being warm enough to work down the shed in the evening so I can crack on with the track. The track under the roof is just led in place  - the cocktail stick and blu-tac pillars are also temporary!

 

 

 

As usual the Grand brothers brought some visiting locos which, as expected, ran beautifully. I shan’t embarrass myself by trying to remember what they are - Simon or Tony G will be along at some point to identify them!

 

 

Finally, one of my trains. I’m sometimes asked why I have made life hard for myself and stuck with the pre-1930 period.

A blue engine hauling red coaches - what’s not to like!

 

Jerry

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing these Tom and posting them Jerry.

 

The top two loco images are of Andy's scratchbuilt LNER J10 (GCR 9H) 0-6-0. If he gets the custom transfers done soon then it might just be complete before its 30th birthday.

 

The NSLR liveried 4-6-0 is an LNER B9 (GCR 8G) built from a Judith Edge Kits etch. Soon to be completed as the last surviving member of the class.

 

Both locos were entirely at home on a joint line, it just should be the Cheshire Lines Committee in the early days of British Railways rather than heading south from Barf on the S&DJR!

 

Simon

[NHY 581]

17 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Thanks for sharing these Tom and posting them Jerry.

 

 

 

Most amusing..........

 

 

[65179]

54 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Most amusing..........

 

 

 

It was good of Tom to put the frying pan down long enough to take the photos