Bath Queen Square

[t-b-g]

Regarding the general design of the locos, I think the influence went the other way.

 

The parallel boiler and Belpaire firebox arrangement was adopted first (as in first for a British main line company) in 1891 on the MS&LR during the Parker period, long before Johnson retired.

 

Although Johnson is always regarded as the main GCR loco engineer and rightly so, what Parker introduced probably had as big an influence on UK loco design as anything Robinson did.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, t-b-g said:

Regarding the general design of the locos, I think the influence went the other way.

 

Yes, no doubt, Gorton (on both sides of the wall) being the home of the Belpaire boiler in Britain. Johnson himself had strong connections, having been between 1859 and 1864 acting locomotive superintendent of the MSLR. On visits to the CLC loco sheds, he used to take great delight in looking up the 2-4-0Ts he had designed - the precursors of the Sacré 12A 2-4-0Ts.

 

But it was really the elegant styling, especially of the front end, that I had in mind.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Midland - reaches the parts other railways* cannot reach.

 

*Principally the LNWR.

Shouldn't that be, reached the parts the other railways didn't bother with, or reached the parts the others had already reached in a belated attempt to get more business.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Shouldn't that be, reached the parts the other railways didn't bother with, or reached the parts the others had already reached in a belated attempt to get more business.

 

Ah, no, I think you're confusing the Midland with the Great Central.

[queensquare]

I’ve spent the last few evenings at my little front room bench enjoying the football and painting the turntable which is now finished and ready to be installed. 
I put various feelers out regarding the correct colour for the girders and as I didn’t get a definitive answer I opted for ‘red lead’, better known  as Halfords red primer! It looks the part buried down in the shadow of the deck and, if a definitive colour should come to light, it will be easy to repaint.

Thankfully everything still worked once the excess paint and powder weathering had been cleaned up. 

So, on to the next project - not sure what it will be but I’m going to take up Dr Nicks’s challenge and get something finished by Christmas - I have one or two unfinished projects to choose from!

 

Jerry

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by queensquare

[TomE]

On 30/11/2022 at 09:49, queensquare said:

I’ve spent the last few evenings at my little front room bench enjoying the football and painting the turntable which is now finished and ready to be installed. 
I put various feelers out regarding the correct colour for the girders and as I didn’t get a definitive answer I opted for ‘red lead’, better known  as Halfords red primer! It looks the part buried down in the shadow of the deck and, if a definitive colour should come to light, it will be easy to repaint.

Thankfully everything still worked once the excess paint and powder weathering had been cleaned up. 

So, on to the next project - not sure what it will be but I’m going to take up Dr Nicks’s challenge and get something finished by Christmas - I have one or two unfinished projects to choose from!

 

Jerry

 

Super work Jerry! Looks fantastic!

Tom.  

[CF MRC]

The Tibetan prayer wheels make it. 
 

Tim

[queensquare]

21 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

The Tibetan prayer wheels make it. 
 

Tim

I’ve got Andy Grand to thank for those, they are lovely little prints,

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

Suitably fired up the next jobs on Bath will involve trackwork. I need to lay the hidden section of the Midland  line before I go too much further and also relay the track over the board joint by the co-op siding which is less than perfect and best done now rather than later.

After that I can move on to bridge No 1 over the Lower Bristol road. With that finished and fixed I can move on to Bath junction. Andy Grand has again come up trumps and I attach a snap of the test prints for the columns along with a view of the bridge from the Lower  Bristol road.

Like the turntable, todays question again involves colour. Locally, the bridge was commonly known as the ‘red bridge’. All those I’ve spoken to who remember the bridge in situ and all colour pictures I’ve seen show the girders etc to be grey so where did the name come from? Political allegiance aside, logic suggests it was called the red bridge because, well, it was red, at least in its early years - 1920s?  Would learned readers of this thread  agree - answers on a postcard.

 

Jerry

 

 

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

Like the turntable, todays question again involves colour. Locally, the bridge was commonly known as the ‘red bridge’. All those I’ve spoken to who remember the bridge in situ and all colour pictures I’ve seen show the girders etc to be grey so where did the name come from? Political allegiance aside, logic suggests it was called the red bridge because, well, it was red, at least in its early years - 1920s?  Would learned readers of this thread  agree - answers on a postcard.

Could it be it was originally given a coat of red lead/red oxide primer and it took a while before the grey was applied. 
 

Bob

[queensquare]

20 hours ago, Izzy said:

Could it be it was originally given a coat of red lead/red oxide primer and it took a while before the grey was applied. 
 

Bob

My suspicion is that it remained red for decades - certainly into living memory of those around in the 50s and 60s so probably into my 1920s period which would account for the name but would it look right. This raises the interesting debate that is accurate necessarily realistic. There are no colour pictures from the 1920s. The expectation is that the bridge would be grey, if it wasn’t, would it still be convincing even if it was accurate.

 

Jerry

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, queensquare said:

My suspicion is that it remained red for decades - certainly into living memory of those around in the 50s and 60s so probably into my 1920s period which would account for the name but would it look right. This raises the interesting debate that is accurate necessarily realistic. There are no colour pictures from the 1920s. The expectation is that the bridge would be grey, if it wasn’t, would it still be convincing even if it was accurate.

 

Jerry

The old authentic/realistic debate again!

[Izzy]

I think the conundrum often is that while a certain colour might be correct, as seems so in this case, when applied to a small scale model it might overpower the scene compared to real life. This is why there is the general recommendation with 2mm to lighten or reduce the tonality by around 20% but I find this doesn’t always work out with all the colour spectrum. Not easy this historical stuff.

 

Bob
 

 

[bécasse]

Bath Historical Society seems to have a Facebook presence, maybe pose a question on there as to why it was called the "red bridge" and add a couple of photos of your models to show that you are serious.

Edited December 3, 2022 by bécasse
typo

[Not Jeremy]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Bath Historical Society seems to have a Facebook presence, maybe pose a question on there as to why it was called the "red bridge" and add a couple of photos of your models to show that you are serious.

I wouldn’t bother with that, they’re “all about the Austen”, paint it grey and call it the red bridge. In any case, I’m not at all sure that red oxide was ever considered a finish coat for anything made of steel?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

In any case, I’m not at all sure that red oxide was ever considered a finish coat for anything made of steel?

 

I'm going to say it again: red lead.

[Not Jeremy]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm going to say it again: red lead.

Indeed, a great primer!

[Izzy]

Thinking about this I do recall seeing steel girder bridges like this painted a red colour when a road went underneath back in the day. Before hazard stripes appeared. Might it have been an early safety idea, make them stand out for taller traffic such as double- deckers and so forth? Just a thought.

 

Bob

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Thinking about this I do recall seeing steel girder bridges like this painted a red colour when a road went underneath back in the day. Before hazard stripes appeared. Might it have been an early safety idea, make them stand out for taller traffic such as double- deckers and so forth? Just a thought.

 

Bob

You could well be right Bob though it doesn’t explain why this bridge was singled out as the ‘red bridge’. If it was a H&S thing then surely all bridges would have been red.

I think I shall paint it grey because bridges should be grey - engines should be red (or blue!). 😊
 

Anyway, I’ve some dull, but important, hidden track to do before I get to do these much more interesting bits.

 

Jerry

Edited December 3, 2022 by queensquare

[nick_bastable]

just a thought ( silly I know ) have you looked at images of what remains of the original Blackfriars railway bridge ?

 

https://memoirsofametrogirl.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/old-blackfriars-rail-bridge-16.jpg?w=768

 

Nick B

Edited December 3, 2022 by nick_bastable
pps

[Caley Jim]

I was told by the late Charles Underhill, who was a civil engineer and member of the HMRS, that prior to a date in, IIRC, the early 1920's, the only protective paint available for steel structures was red lead, or as he described it 'Forth Bridge' and it was only after that date that other colours, such as grey, were used.  I suppose that's not to say that an other colour could have been painted on top of the red lead.

 

Jim 

[James Harrison]

There's a difference between paint applied as a protective measure and that applied for aesthetic purposes.  An example of untouched pre-1920s steel that we can go and look at today is the so-called 'Big Piece' of the Titanic, which was brought up in the 1990s.  And on that you can still find traces of red lead paint that was applied as a preservative prior to the final colour finish coats.  

[drduncan]

Additional colours on top of the red lead preservative layer would mean, I suppose, more expense. How parsimonious was the company responsible for the bridge?

[queensquare]

2 hours ago, nick_bastable said:

just a thought ( silly I know ) have you looked at images of what remains of the original Blackfriars railway bridge ?

 

https://memoirsofametrogirl.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/old-blackfriars-rail-bridge-16.jpg?w=768

 

Nick B

 

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

I was told by the late Charles Underhill, who was a civil engineer and member of the HMRS, that prior to a date in, IIRC, the early 1920's, the only protective paint available for steel structures was red lead, or as he described it 'Forth Bridge' and it was only after that date that other colours, such as grey, were used.  I suppose that's not to say that an other colour could have been painted on top of the red lead.

 

Jim 

 

1 hour ago, James Harrison said:

There's a difference between paint applied as a protective measure and that applied for aesthetic purposes.  An example of untouched pre-1920s steel that we can go and look at today is the so-called 'Big Piece' of the Titanic, which was brought up in the 1990s.  And on that you can still find traces of red lead paint that was applied as a preservative prior to the final colour finish coats.  

You’ve definitely got me thinking gents, perhaps I will paint it red after all!

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

On 03/12/2022 at 18:25, drduncan said:

Additional colours on top of the red lead preservative layer would mean, I suppose, more expense. How parsimonious was the company responsible for the bridge?

It was bridge No 1 on the S&D who were never that flush!

 

I’ve sent you a pm Duncan.

 

Jerry

Edited December 11, 2022 by queensquare