MarkC Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The dangers involved in handling petrol are misunderstood by many simply because of it's ubiquity, it's a commodity bought by many people on a daily/ weekly basis. Familiarity breeds, if not contempt, certainly complacency. And THAT is the crux of the matter. Yes, the Regulations are there - they're posted on all fuel station forecourts by law, iirc. (As an aside, how many folk even glance at them, never mind read them?). My point about H&S zealots was simply that until now, there hasn't really been a headline story like this one which has been grabbed by the meeja, and thus thrust into the public eye. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I..."Just 7 days away from chaos and 10 days away from anarchy"... That needs to be qualified with something on the lines of: unless there is the ability in place to plan and implement suitable actions in response to whatever disruption has occurred. UKGOV may have its faults, but it has the banked know how of managing to sustain a population in famine for near six years while fighting a devastating war. That's an amazing achievement, and one that most people in the UK seem blithely unaware of. I have been keeping my car topped up for several months now - not due to our gov, tanker drivers or the like - but because of the storm clouds gathering in the middle east, Iran, Straits of Hormuz, Israel etc. Keep a bit of food stored as well - not stock piling or hoarding, just a bit extra "just in case", a few tins, large bag of rice, spuds etc. It won't go to waste - not in our family !!. You all think the last few days have been bad - you ain't seen anything yet, (and I sincerely hope we all don't)... Me too, ever since the oil shock of the 1970s. It is even more important now than then, because all our food distribution has moved to 'Just in Time' since. Doesn't need to be a vast amount of stuff, a working bicycle, good shoes, a range of decent tools and the ability to use them, some bivouac making supplies, fuel, basic non-refrigeration dependent foodstuffs, water and purification tablets. Just enough so that if it really does all run to ratshit on a very large scale suddenly and faster than any government can respond, if you are still standing you can keep yourself and others going for a week or two, and be ready to pitch in when officialdom gets its rear end in gear. If it's still all completely busted after a couple of weeks then it is likely game over anyway. Sewer systems are life enablers where there's a crowd... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2012 There have been reports of a petrol station near Eastbourne refusing to serve one customer from Cornwall because she was not local!! Typical Sussex really... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 When coal was rationed to two bags per household in the mid 1970s, the local left wing coal merchant stuck rigidly to the code causing hardship in his area. So a coal merchant from Point of Air came along and sold coal to anyone who wanted it showing that the shortage was artificial to stir up public feelings against strikers. Result, people switched coal merchants. What price loyalty when small companies play politics! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 .....a range of decent tools ....... ...most of whom were stuck in panic-buying fuel queues. There have been reports of a petrol station near Eastbourne refusing to serve one customer from Cornwall because she was not local!! Typical Sussex really... ....and another report of one station near The Lizard, Cornwall, not selling to a motorist from....Sussex. Tit-for-tat? "What's all this shouting? We'll have no trouble here!!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2012 Can anybody explain why the panic buying caused a 182% rise in sales of unleaded but only about half that for diesel? Surely whatever the proportion sold at each garage you would expect a similar percentage rise of each by "stockpilers" Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 When we took the old(petrol) camper to Italy, without exception, the petrol pump guys (no self=service then) had a lit cigarette in their mouth when they were filling the tank. Ed I've had the same while filling up in Normandy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Can anybody explain why the panic buying caused a 182% rise in sales of unleaded but only about half that for diesel? Presumably a lot of diesel is consumed by commercial drivers who burn through diesel at a constant rate and don't have a lot opportunity to queue for four hours in order to leave their wagon full of fuel and idle on their driveway. I have to fill up once a week and luckily did so on Wednesday just before all this nonsense kicked off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2012 The stupid thing about the panic buyers is most are putting only a gallon or two in their tanks, that would just about get me to work and back for a day, maybe two at push (literally if I'm not careful), if their need is such that they need to be full, then 1 or 2 gallons is not really going to help in a real crisis, and if they don't they are taking fuel from the hands of those that *do* really need it, Fortunately the panic seems to have died down locally although one of my two stations of choice has run out of fuel for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2012 The stupid thing about the panic buyers is most are putting only a gallon or two in their tanks, that would just about get me to work and back for a day, maybe two at push (literally if I'm not careful), if their need is such that they need to be full, then 1 or 2 gallons is not really going to help in a real crisis, and if they don't they are taking fuel from the hands of those that *do* really need it, Fortunately the panic seems to have died down locally although one of my two stations of choice has run out of fuel for now. Both our local station were out of fuel yesterday and normally they suffer no shortage problems at all so the current state is clearly the result of panic buying by - in all probability - those who didn't really need the fuel. I normally refuel when I'm down to about half a tank - and di so on Tuesday and that will last me for several weeks on my usual pattern. My lad gets through about £40 quid's worth of petrol a week driving to & from work (there are no trains from here at 04.45 of a morning) and luckily managed to refill on Friday. With luck the moronic stupidity will now die down but I'm afraid this sort of behaviour happens every time there is some sort of problem with fuel supplies and I doubt it will ever be different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Presumably a lot of diesel is consumed by commercial drivers who burn through diesel at a constant rate and don't have a lot opportunity to queue for four hours in order to leave their wagon full of fuel and idle on their driveway. I have to fill up once a week and luckily did so on Wednesday just before all this nonsense kicked off. A lot of larger commercial vehicles will either refuel at their depot, or at motorway services, as the majority of petrol stations are incapable of accepting larger vehicles. Some of the parcels operators reduced the number of runs they were doing to conserve fuel- our new PC has been delayed because of this. What is slightly alarming is that most ambulances and police vehicles (at least here in SE Kent) use commercial filling stations to refuel at; it's very hard to get a pastie when the garage is filled with Emergency Service personnel stacking up on doughnuts.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 What is slightly alarming is that most ambulances and police vehicles (at least here in SE Kent) use commercial filling stations to refuel at; it's very hard to get a pastie when the garage is filled with Emergency Service personnel stacking up on doughnuts.. You will now have to pay VAT on it anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I keep a couple of small cans of fuel - one plain unleaded and the other 2-stroke mix - for garden equipment use and they are near the garage door where there's some ventilation etc. What I can't get my head round is anyone being daft enough to take petrol indoors, the smell alone ought to put them off let alone the safety aspect - definitely Darwin award category alas, and I'm left wondering how many more twits are behaving this stupidly. It's entirely probable that this unfortunate woman had never done anything with petrol other than pumping it straight into her car and until this stupid advice from a responsible (!!??) Government Minister would probably have never even thought of doing anything else with it. Most people simply don't know the dangers of handling petrol because nobody ever bothered to explain it to them and the almost instant reaction from professional firefighters shows how stupid his remarks were. Ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing and I doubt that very many people even know it's petrol vapour not liquid thats inflammable so wouldn't know that a dangerous source of ignition could be some way from the actual liquid. The Government ought at least to have put out a proper public warning after this tragic incident but that would be an admission of their own stupidity so I'm not holding my breath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 It's entirely possible that this unfortunate woman had never done anything with petrol other than pumping it straight into her car and until this stupid advice from a responsible (!!??) Government Minister would probably have never even thought of doing anything else with it. Most people simply don't know the dangers of handling petrol because nobody ever bothered to explain it to them and the almost instant reaction from professional firefighters shows how stupid his remarks were. Ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing and I doubt that very many people even know it's petrol vapour not liquid thats inflammable so wouldn't know that a dangerous source of ignition could be some way from the actual liquid. The Government ought at least to have put out a proper public warning after this tragic incident but that would be an admission of their own stupidity so I'm not holding my breath. I cannot remember Francis Maude's exact utterance, but when it was pointed out to him that there were strict regulations about the storage of petrol at domestic premises, dating from the early days of motoring, he made a rather supercilious comment about 'outdated and irrelevant rules'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 Presumably a lot of diesel is consumed by commercial drivers who burn through diesel at a constant rate and don't have a lot opportunity to queue for four hours in order to leave their wagon full of fuel and idle on their driveway. I have to fill up once a week and luckily did so on Wednesday just before all this nonsense kicked off. A lot of larger commercial vehicles will either refuel at their depot, or at motorway services, as the majority of petrol stations are incapable of accepting larger vehicles. Some of the parcels operators reduced the number of runs they were doing to conserve fuel- our new PC has been delayed because of this. What is slightly alarming is that most ambulances and police vehicles (at least here in SE Kent) use commercial filling stations to refuel at; it's very hard to get a pastie when the garage is filled with Emergency Service personnel stacking up on doughnuts.. As most larger commercial vehicles will fill up at depots normally, this leaves mainly light vehicles to use the roadside/supermarket filling stations anyway. This still does not explain such a difference in the amount of increase between unleaded and diesel at filling stations. Maybe the unleaded drivers are more easily pushed into panic mode? If so, why? Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 Recently at home we came close to potentially a similar incident. We had some friends around to assist in cleaning up the garden. My wife pointed out to one gentlemen where the gas meter & associated pipework was. 2 minutes later his hit the pipework in the exact spot with his chainsaw. I was called over as the gas was leaking, to find 2 fairsized holes gouged into the pipework & of course gas is p**sing out of it. Struggling to turn the gas off, fortunately the leak was AFTER the gas tap & meter. I suddenley realised that this p***t was standing directly behind me with gas going everywhere, WITH HIS PETROL POWERED CHAIN SAW still running and me with my head over the gas. I yelled out "I think you'd better turn that thing off". "What?" was the reply. "Turn that f***ing thing off, NOW!" I yell. Fortunately, he turned if off before me or anyone else got the chance to do it for him and stick it somewhere painful. So I got the gas turned off & fortunately the damage was easily replaced - a standard part & a plumbers supply not far away. How could someone promptly hit a gas pipe, he'd just been told about, then stand there with a petrol chain saw running a metre or so away, just beggars belief. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 From my electronics days, I was used to minimal stock holding and 'just in time delivery' but I have been amazed just how quickly garages have run out. Even allowing for the increased demand, they ran out very quickly, which would suggest that underground storage tanks are smaller than I envisaged or that deliveries to garages must have been far more frequent that I realised. Underground tanks at garages must have been put in years ago when demand was far lower and without massive investment cannot be changed, so buffer capacity at the garages must now be lower than any time in our history. It never ceases to amaze me the high risks to developed countries. Take away electricity or fuel and we would grind to a halt in days. The alternative is for the service stations to have much larger tanks AND pay in advance for them to be filled. Given that petrol also goes off when old, would it a good investment for them? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Petrol goes off? How quickly does that occur? Normally I fill up once a month and although it's maybe just my imagination but I've often sensed that the car engine is a little 'perkier' with some fresh juice in! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 Petrol goes off? How quickly does that occur? I don't think theres a one stop answer Max. Following is a noddy explanation given to me years ago when driving for Porsche. Once Petrol is exposed to air the more volatile compounds evaporate more easily, leaving the harder to combust chains in the majority, hence a not so clean burn. Having petrol in a fully sealed container minimises the compound loss and it keeps 'fresher'. I have had cars and bikes parked up for a few months at a time and occaisionally had a reluctance for them to fire up. If I have had a vehicle standing for a while I tend to top it up with premium unleaded or fresh diesel before firing it up. My feeling is that does help a bit, be it a bike, car or chainsaw. Boys toys eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted April 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2012 I think this is an odd post to say the least. This lady was decanting petrol into a jug next to a burning cooker we are informed. If that is the best she could do for her daughter ( who apparently wasn't thee at the time ) and constitutes Government advice in any way shape or form then I would love to know how this conclusion was arrived at and posted here. Hmmm...interesting how the written word can be read different ways; her ignorance of safety measures is very clear and I'm sure she wasn't being deliberate in taking risks like this. I was simply pointing out the extremely sad consequences of one person's actions of trying to help another as the other person was short of fuel due to the Government's poor advice which led to there being no fuel available at the garage... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldrick25 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Going back to the Lady who was decanting petrol, maybe those on here who spray paint models or use solvents- be they paints or glues etc, review their own safety arrangements whilst doing so in the kitchen , the garage or elsewhere in a 'confined space'. Maybe these solvents aren't in quite the same league as four star for flammability, maybe its a case of 'therefore but the grace.. go us modellers. The lessons should be learned- it can happen........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 The lessons should be learned- it can happen........ I'm sorry, but the lessons should be learned and taught at a much earlier age. If anyone is spraying cellulose thinners anywhere near a naked flame or heat source or breathing them in in a confined space then they simply go on the same Darwinian list as far as I am concerned. Perhaps I am unusual, but I was brought up to understand certain basics of self-preservation, like not playing with explosives; not walking out in front of moving vehicles; not walking on the edge of cliffs or tall buildings. I also see this to be far too important a life preservation skill to be left to some dumb politician or rule book. We all have a basic responsibility to look after ourselves and to pass on that simple instruction set in life to our children. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldrick25 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 We all have a basic responsibility to look after ourselves and to pass on that simple instruction set in life to our children. One thing that has to be considered though is complacency- It hasn't happened to me so far , so isn't going to... Errr , not true , it only takes one change in some variable somewhere that we haven't considered to make any of us fall out of the (hypothetical) tree... looking around at my own case, I noticed a lighter on the bench in the garage/workshop ( from burning the insulation off the ends of fine enamelled copper wire). In the same place I've sprayed models galore , left the lid off waste paint thinners whilst using it for cleaning etc- fortunately NOT at the same time... A moments forgetfulness though......Even the thermostat clicking away in the Weller temperature controlled soldering iron might be a different story. Its unlikely to make the 'news' in quite the same way as the petrol incident, but could be equally devastating, or worse to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Complacency is not part of my life's equation and with over 60 years past I cannot recall ever having encountered it on my watch. Foolishness and dumb behaviour of others have caught me out a couple of times along with the planned and deliberate actions of others. In your example, it is a case of tools for the job. I would never have left the lighter lying around: 1. it has its place safe out of reach of others not trained on its use. 2. I have wire strippers to strip wire. I also mentioned "heat sources" - yes that includes the soldering iron and all other electrical switch gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Complacency is not part of my life's equation..........I cannot recall ever having encountered it on my watch. As Basil Brush might say 'Boom-boom!' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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