DCC Steam Locomotive Sound

[Chris Turnbull]

Dear All

 

Last Saturday I spent some time watching a couple of layouts at a local exhibition which both featured DCC sound. I was struck how authentic the diesel sound was and how unauthentic the steam sound was. What exactly do I mean?

 

Well, steam locomotives do not go chuff-chuff-chuff all the time as they move along, especially when stopping. Steam is shut off some distance before the required stopping place and the locomotive coasts along until it is stopped by means of the brakes. The exact distance of coasting is determined by several factors – track gradient and weight of the train to name but two – which are all judged by the skill of the driver. No steam outline DCC model did this that I saw; they all continued chuffing away right up until they stopped rather like the old Tri-ang sandpaper-based noise system of some fifty years ago. For me this spoilt the whole effect.

 

Was I just unlucky in the choice of layout that I viewed or is there no authentic steam locomotive sound available?

 

Regards

 

Chris Turnbull

[Oldddudders]

Different brands of sound decoder offer different levels of customising to suit your taste. My US brands permit me to set them up so the moment the throttle is reduced and the loco coasts, so is the chuffing noise, then open the throttle and the chuffs restart. The owners of the locos you saw may simply not be aware of how steam sounds in the real world.

[roundhouse]

I have sounds in most of the locos on 'Roundhouse'.

 

Whilst many have the settings to allow them to coast, most dont as there isnt the space for them to do so as the layout is a MPD with a small area of industry for switching. Any that do have the coasting effect are normally drowned out by those visiting on shed or being serviced.

 

On my old 'Appledore' layout I have a little bit more of a run but not by much. Some of the Bullied light Pacifics do have quite a nice coasting sound that is also more noticeble due to fewer locos being on the layout at any one time but even on that layout you dont get much chance to get the full effects.

 

I would htink that to get the full effect of the steam sounds, you probably need a reasonable run, although I am not sure if any of the layouts you saw did have such a run or not.

[pauliebanger]

Dear All

 

Last Saturday I spent some time watching a couple of layouts at a local exhibition which both featured DCC sound. I was struck how authentic the diesel sound was and how unauthentic the steam sound was. What exactly do I mean?

 

Well, steam locomotives do not go chuff-chuff-chuff all the time as they move along, especially when stopping. Steam is shut off some distance before the required stopping place and the locomotive coasts along until it is stopped by means of the brakes. The exact distance of coasting is determined by several factors – track gradient and weight of the train to name but two – which are all judged by the skill of the driver. No steam outline DCC model did this that I saw; they all continued chuffing away right up until they stopped rather like the old Tri-ang sandpaper-based noise system of some fifty years ago. For me this spoilt the whole effect.

 

Was I just unlucky in the choice of layout that I viewed or is there no authentic steam locomotive sound available?

 

Regards

 

Chris Turnbull

 

Chris,

 

I'm not keen on this either. I call this 'Chuffing to a Halt'. It is as a result of poor programming or poor understanding of how steam locos work or both.

 

There are a number of factors involved, but controllers can only get locos to 'drift' if it has been set up in the sound project, and it's easy to use.

 

All my Zimo UK steam projects available from Digitrains have drifting built in as standard and operate prototypically. They can also change from light loco to heavy, instantly and on the move.

 

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1j_2Ap_8zs

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[RedgateModels]

Speaking from experience I can vouch for Paul's Austerity Tank Engine sound scheme, it coasts beautifully and on low speed steps doesn't "chuff" at all in the real sense even when moving off. Lots of coupling rod clank and hissing. It's only when the loco gets in it's stride, or you turn on the heavily loaded option does it start to chuff.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqqhPT3KqEs&feature=player_embedded

 

I modified the sound scheme for my 2-8-2 BR Standard (Model Rail 169 - shameless plug!) as the standard Loksound scheme did not coast at all even though the sounds were there and available to use. It's not to Paul's standard though

 

Forgot to mention (shameless plug #2!) "Harry" will be performing centre stage on Summat Colliery at the Wigan Show in June

[Savoyard]

If you can come along to MRX 2012 at the Museum of Transport Manchester Paul is doing a DCC Sound Clinic over the weekend and presenting a DCC Sound Seminar on Sunday afternoon, so I am sure he will be more than happy to help as will many other DCC experts who will be around over the weekend.

 

Peter

[PaulRhB]

Most of the ESU projects allow drifting noises but you need to set the deceleration cv to a higher value. Personally my favourite for this is the Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder as you can set the deceleration to max and stop the loco using a separate brake function, that's what I'd like to see become universal. Do Zimo offer it as it isn't on the ESU 3.5 chips?

Many still only buy sound locos plonk and play without altering the cv's as it seems more complex than it is. Another thing that would be nice to see is a volume toggle as a standard function rather than having to enable it on ESU chips etc.

Dcc sound has come of age but I think the control interface could do with major development to make reliance on separate programmers a thing of the past. Things like accel, decel, volume and Chuff rate should be as easy to alter as sounding the horn. NCE's is the closest on a starter system but it still requires some use of the instruction manual.

[Nigelcliffe]

Paul, as far as I know, Tsunami's are unique with their cost/brake feature - and like you I think its excellent and others should produce something similar.

One can get close to it with a Zimo, but it works differently; there is a deceleration threshold (how many speed steps are decreased on the throttle), and once crossed the loco can "coast" for up to 25 seconds (another settings). Decrease again within the time window and the coasting continues, etc... Net effect is similar to the Tsunami, though the driving method is different.

 

"out of the box no faffing" - I don't think its possible given the variability in people's layouts (length of run, etc), variability in models (different examples of same model from maker are variable, let alone between makers), etc.. So, the choice is "how to faff" to set them up properly.

 

- Nigel

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

There is no sound chip available that can and will duplicate all the sounds that a steam locomotive makes when different drivers, different loads and even slippery rails are factored into the equation.

 

Both the major sound chip manufacturers namely ESU and Zimo have coasting available and indeed a chuff sound that can change with throttle opening. All of these features are capable of being programmed in but if you buy an RTR chip then you are stuck with whatever is in the project and you can only change it by requesting a re-blow from a project compiler who offers these features.

 

All the major RTR chips are fitted at the factory and all of these in the UK market are ESU. Both ESU and Zimo are both capable with the right equipment and expertise, of being home grown.

 

The Soundtraxx Tsunami is a sound decoder that is really geared to the US market and contains sounds that only approximate to a UK steam locomotive.

 

As with all things audio, if you like what you hear then that is the chip for you. Don't assume that every chip will sound the same except if you bought several of the same class of diesel from Bachmann, then they would sound identical.

 

We are also experiencing some difficulty with ESU product at the moment as there has been a change of sound decoder format from the V3.5 to the latest V4. There are still many locomotives out there with sound projects developed for the V3.5 and loaded into a V4 with some loss of features.

 

Until somebody starts writing new projects for V4 then Zimo and Paul' s efforts have the edge but the number of projects for steam locos is still very limited.

 

Although I accept that chuffing to a stop is not very prototypical, i think that one cannot beat a really good whistle and I think this is where the Tsunami falls down.

[MiDAS]

Chris was standing pontificating on this subject next to our layout, I purposely allowed a J15 to drift in, no chuffs and with a little rod clank. He obviously was not listening or the general noise in the hall covered such niceties.

Terry Cooke

[PhilH]

The answer to the OP question is not yet - as Dave alluded to above there are virtually an infinite number of sounds associated with various scenarios of steam loco operation.

 

It has to be said that there is a marked difference between what a steam loco actually sounds like when working and that which most people think a steam loco sounds like - BUT if people like what they hear, right or wrong, then that's the sound chip for them.

 

Beauty is definitely in the ear of the beholder!

[charliepetty]

The answer to the OP question is not yet - as Dave alluded to above there are virtually an infinite number of sounds associated with various scenarios of steam loco operation.

 

It has to be said that there is a marked difference between what a steam loco actually sounds like when working and that which most people think a steam loco sounds like - BUT if people like what they hear, right or wrong, then that's the sound chip for them.

 

Beauty is definitely in the ear of the beholder!

 

South West Digital do a range of Steam Sounds on ESU Decoders, see www.dckits-devideos.co.uk for a full listing of steam & diesel sound projects.

[tetsudofan]

Charlie, in this thread the discussion has been about steam locomotive sounds - when I follow the link to your website can only find links to you-tube videos of diesel locomotive sounds but no links to videos of the steam locomotive sounds - have you got any links to the steam locomotive sounds?

 

Keith

[legomanbiffo]

"out of the box no faffing" - I don't think its possible given the variability in people's layouts (length of run, etc), variability in models (different examples of same model from maker are variable, let alone between makers), etc.. So, the choice is "how to faff" to set them up properly.

 

Nigel, I would argue strongly that it is possible to produce sound chips that look and sound right on all manner of layouts from short 'planks' to big 'roundy-roundy's'; Paul and I do it all the time. Any programmer who is prepared to invest the time and has sufficient skill can do it. Paul and I approach it in different ways but the end result is the same.

 

The biggest problem in UK sound market is the indifference of the major manufacturers who continue to produce locos that don't behave (in sound terms) like real locos (be it steam or diesel), and make fundamental errors in the design of their loudspeaker fits. Some of the 'factory fitted' sound locos I've heard are truly awful, yet with a little effort at the design stage they could sound so much better.

 

The recent argument 'why should I pay to have my factory-fitted chip reblown' is entirely valid. The alternative is simple; steer clear of factory fitted sound locos altogether, buy a non-sound loco at a fraction of the price and take advice from satisfied users on the forums regarding chips and speaker fitting.

 

Bif

[Savoyard]

The recent argument 'why should I pay to have my factory-fitted chip reblown' is entirely valid. The alternative is simple; steer clear of factory fitted sound locos altogether, buy a non-sound loco at a fraction of the price and take advice from satisfied users on the forums regarding chips and speaker fitting.

 

Not only that, as I have pointed out on another thread, you are paying about £140 difference between and a non-sound and sound version of a factory fitted loco! Considering sound chips can be bought for between £90 & £100, Bachmann and Hornby are therefore charging an excess of £40 to £50 for a sound chip which I am pretty certain the manufacturers are paying a lot less for their sound chips!

 

Peter

[Nigelcliffe]

Nigel, I would argue strongly that it is possible to produce sound chips that look and sound right on all manner of layouts from short 'planks' to big 'roundy-roundy's'; Paul and I do it all the time. Any programmer who is prepared to invest the time and has sufficient skill can do it. Paul and I approach it in different ways but the end result is the same.

 

The biggest problem in UK sound market is the indifference of the major manufacturers who continue to produce locos that don't behave (in sound terms) like real locos (be it steam or diesel), and make fundamental errors in the design of their loudspeaker fits. Some of the 'factory fitted' sound locos I've heard are truly awful, yet with a little effort at the design stage they could sound so much better.

 

The recent argument 'why should I pay to have my factory-fitted chip reblown' is entirely valid. The alternative is simple; steer clear of factory fitted sound locos altogether, buy a non-sound loco at a fraction of the price and take advice from satisfied users on the forums regarding chips and speaker fitting.

 

Bif

 

Bif,

I'll discuss the details with you on Saturday. I stand by what I have written. I suspect our positions are not very different to each other.

 

Yes, both you and Paul (and a few others) produce excellent sound files.

And some RTR sound files are very poor, not to mention poor speaker installations.

 

That's not the point I was making.

 

- Nigel

[coachmann]

Both the youtube videos showed everything that is wrong with steam sound. A pal of mine has altered the CV's or whatever you call them to produce clanking rods without any exhaust sound but it is still irritating to hear the cycle of sound repeated over and over again.

 

When I see and hear a youtube sample I am expecting the driver to wind back the cut off but it doesnt happen. I have yet to hear the proper events on a sound fitted loco.....starting off in full gear and cylinder drain cocks open momentarily or otherwise, then winding back to reduce the cut off as the locos gets hold of the train, and further cut off as the train accelerates. In otherwords the blast should be weaker as the loco speeds up (on level track). There are enough videos about showing real trains at work.

 

As for locos puffing to a halt, this occurs on the soundtrack of Cowboy movies every time. Were the American 4-4-0's like this. The only place I heard locos puff almost to a stand was in Oldham Central station upgrade out of Central tunnel.

[DavidM]

The main problem I have with DCC Steam Sound is the exhaust noise as a whole, rather than the specifics of cut off, regulator etc.

 

As I understand it, DCC steam chips are programmed with seperate 'chuff' wav files which are played in a sequence with increasing speed. In my opinion, this is perfectly adequate for lower speeds, but once anything over a scale 20mph or so is reached the 'chuffs' are played with an increased frequency - sounding less and less authentic the higher the speed.

 

What is needed is a set or several of 'high speed chuff loops' that kick in about the 20mph mark and increase in increments from this point. The purr of a locomotive at high speed is a completely different sound to four chuffs played quickly - as can be seen in these two example clips.

 

 

 

The problem is that, in real life, the sound isn't 'looping' and this is unachieveable in DCC soundchips - but a lot can be done to reduce the effect as suggested above.

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Both the youtube videos showed everything that is wrong with steam sound. A pal of mine has altered the CV's or whatever you call them to produce clanking rods without any exhaust sound but it is still irritating to hear the cycle of sound repeated over and over again.

 

When I see and hear a youtube sample I am expecting the driver to wind back the cut off but it doesnt happen. I have yet to hear the proper events on a sound fitted loco.....starting off in full gear and cylinder drain cocks open momentarily or otherwise, then winding back to reduce the cut off as the locos gets hold of the train, and further cut off as the train accelerates. In otherwords the blast should be weaker as the loco speeds up (on level track). There are enough videos about showing real trains at work.

 

As for locos puffing to a halt, this occurs on the soundtrack of Cowboy movies every time. Were the American 4-4-0's like this. The only place I heard locos puff almost to a stand was in Oldham Central station upgrade out of Central tunnel.

 

Ha Ha. The only place I know where car tyres squeal on loose surfaces like dirt, sand and gravel is in Hollywood films. Check out 'Foley Editing'.

 

Funny thing happened at a show last week-end. I was looking at a layout with a seated man reading a newspaper. I kept expecting him to turn the page. When I realised he was not moving like a real person, it completely ruined it for me. (tongue firmly in cheek)

 

Yes, it is unfortunate that we have to work within the parameters that the decoder's architecture allows, and with the minute amount of memory onboard.

 

The reality is that sound decoders are digital and constricting, steam locos (and diesel for that matter) are analogue. Whilst it is possible to wind the reverser to give more or less cut-off anywhere within its designed range on the real thing, a decoder can only play a sample or series of samples of sound recorded at set intervals. The same applies to regulator position

 

This inevitably requires some compromise, as do all aspects of modeling. In the first video above, there are two instances where exhaust beats with reduced cut-off occur, briefly. These are different sounds to those when the regulator is 'closed'.

 

The project in the second video uses 92 different exhaust beats recorded at 4 different cut-off/regulator combinations, but they are not all represented in the short video.

 

I reiterate, these are models with model sounds. You may not be satisfied that there are close enough to the full prototypical operations, and I respect your view.

 

However, there are many people, and I am amongst them, who believe that even an imperfect sound project which captures something of the essence of the real thing, is more rewarding and more lifelike that a model steam loco moving to the sound of an electric motor.

 

I am well aware of the variations in sounds and the reasons for them, on real locos; virtually all my sound projects are produced from my own recordings from the footplates of the subject locomotives. (Clearly, this is not possible for types which have no preserved examples).

 

So, I'll continue to do my best with the limited technology at my disposal, since without experiment, no boundaries will be pushed and little progress will be made.

 

I'm happy to stick with the maxim 'Some sound is better than no sound'.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[PhilH]

virtually all my sound projects are produced from my own recordings from the footplates of the subject locomotives.

 

Sorry, but that's a mistake - it's a totally different set of sounds on the footplate than it is from outside the things. You don't get a true exhaust sound for a start - experienced steam drivers often drive the things on how 'sweet' they sound, you have to stick your head out to do this, you get no indication from inside the cab, too many other things going on.

 

But as you said, it is all down to what the model owner is pleased with,which is a different question to the original post.

[roundhouse]

 

 

However, there are many people, and I am amongst them, who believe that even an imperfect sound project which captures something of the essence of the real thing, is more rewarding and more lifelike that a model steam loco moving to the sound of an electric motor.

 

 

 

Paul

 

I must admit that I have only heard a handful of Amercian steam locomotives either on videos or at preserved railrods over there. On my ' Roundhouse' layout we have many sound equiped locos and some sound better than others but are probably not set up correctly.

 

The bells should normally be ringing when a loco is switching the yards etc but we try not to have the bells on all the time so as not to annoy other exhibitors and als for us not to be oging to bed at night still having bells ringing in our ears!

 

However, when we exhibit the layout we often have crowds three or so people deep (many enthusiasts but many are families) because of the sounds.

 

Regardless of the authenticity of the sounds it provides a lot of entertainment to many.

 

Ian

[Oldddudders]

However, there are many people, and I am amongst them, who believe that even an imperfect sound project which captures something of the essence of the real thing, is more rewarding and more lifelike that a model steam loco moving to the sound of an electric motor.

That sentence nails it for me. Just having a train or trains chugging round the layout while you attend to other matters is infinitely more gratifying with sound rather than without. And even leaving locos parked with the occasional Westinghouse pump sound etc gives a feel of a railway that is alive. Ditto diesels on tickover.

[PaulRhB]

Draincocks on starting? That's possible with several sound projects if you use the steam release function toggled on an off a few times as you start though it's not automatic.

Increased cut off for starting, set the acceleration to a higher value and enable load dependent sound, though you must set the main volume lower than the max to give it that higher range available for the load dependent sounds. Several commercial projects have cut off and you can hear the change as they get faster without just looping the same Chuff.

Investing in a programmer for you chosen manufacturers chips opens up and simplifies many of the settings mention above but will cost the same as a chip so it's only worth it if you intend getting several. I've got value for money from mine and lend it to mates too as it 'pays' for the favours they give you too so overall it's getting cheaper all the time

 

Coachmann, I think the film industry tends to use foley or more commonly they just tell the crew they want it chuffing and the train arrives with brakes hard on and the loco pulling against them for effect! I know one of our preserved railways were asked to have the loco lock it's wheels and slide and told them it shook the tubes loose so the film company paid for their major overhaul

One of the reasons I'm slowly replacing LGB sound units is their load dependent sound is rubbish, it's either full Chuff or nothing.

[pauliebanger]

Sorry, but that's a mistake - it's a totally different set of sounds on the footplate than it is from outside the things. You don't get a true exhaust sound for a start - experienced steam drivers often drive the things on how 'sweet' they sound, you have to stick your head out to do this, you get no indication from inside the cab, too many other things going on.

 

But as you said, it is all down to what the model owner is pleased with, which is a different question to the original post.

 

Phil

 

I agree that locos sound different from inside and outside the cab. Indeed it would be a mistake to think otherwise, as you so kindly point out.

 

Knowing this to be the case, my recordings are made from the appropriate places, even though I am located inside as this is the safest place on a moving locomotive. I mentioned the footplate only to indicate that I am familiar with the workings of steam locos, and that they are not based on lineside recordings which are unsuitable for DCC Sound for a variety of reasons.

 

And there are in-cab sounds which can only be recorded in any clarity from onboard; even though they may be almost inaudible in the finished sound project they need to captured faithfully to begin with.

 

Modelling sound is just as valid as any other form of modelling. When all's said and done, every model created is no more than a representation of the real thing, and it would be folly to think otherwise. The 'reality' is created in the mind of the observer, from the clues, visual or otherwise, provided by the modeller.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Chris Turnbull]

Dear All

 

Thank you all for your replies and comments.

 

It would seem that what I would regard as realistic steam locomotive sound is not yet available. This I find surprising as every digital gadget that you buy nowadays seems to do most of what you want plus a hundred other things that you don’t and are just there as gimmicks being of little practicable use.

 

Clearly there is a long way to go with sound chips.

 

Regards

 

Chris Turnbull