Shock Horror M6 Toll Road Makes A Loss

[D605Eagle]

It does tell me something about the mindset of this country that so many would prefer to waste hours of their life in slow moving or stationary traffic like high tech lemmings for the sake of £5.50.

What's the saying; "the cost of everything and the value of nothing"?

You'll burn more than that in petrol with all the stop-start and slow running.

 

Dave.

I'm local so I do have an unfair advantage, but even at the worst time of the day I only loose 15 minutes not using it. This has happened mainly due to so many drivers now using satnavs to tell them where to go, and the B the wider unclassified roads that used to be quite busy are now very lightly used and great for getting about on. A £1.99 map book and a bit of studying can be a great asset.

[D605Eagle]

3000cc highly tuned 211bhp and a heavy right footed driver in a car that likes to motor rather than sit breathing in the fumes in a car park. The open road is still a pleasure to drive along unlike the stress of standing still.

Blimey! is it jet powered or something? that is so inefficient. Mine is 2liters and just short of 200bhp, yet it does 65 mpg crusing at 65 mph, and its average over the last 2 years is 49.8 mpg.

[Deano]

It does tell me something about the mindset of this country that so many would prefer to waste hours of their life in slow moving or stationary traffic like high tech lemmings for the sake of £5.50.

What's the saying; "the cost of everything and the value of nothing"?

You'll burn more than that in petrol with all the stop-start and slow running.

 

Dave.

 

Or use the A446/A38/A5 not as fast as the toll road, but free to use.

[APOLLO]

The "future" is hitting us faster than it has ever hit before, and road pricing in several forms is being actively discussed by many. I'm afraid, despite what many say, it is inevitable, for many reasons (one of which is to top up Government coffers).

 

Up here in Greater Manchester land we had a referendum of sorts a while ago, we voted on the subject of peak time road pricing in Manchester, and the scheme brochure was to also include several other towns and busy areas (Manchester Airport area was to be one). The sweetener was investment in Railways / Tramways / Buses etc. The vote was a great NO - so it got kicked out - for now at least.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2007/01/24/240106_road_pricing_feature.shtml

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/13/congestion-charging-transport

 

Call me Dave says any new pricing schemes will only apply to new road construction - Given the ongoing recession & the reason for this thread (M6 toll road making a loss) I can't see any major private investments in new trunk roads / motorways anytime soon.

Privatisation by the back door & by stealth will more than likely happen (as per NHS).

 

One thing's for sure, motoring (like rail & bus fares) ain't going to get cheaper.

 

Brit15

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

It seems to be a peculiarly British thing to want to denigrate those who are prepared to pay for a better service.

 

I sometimes use the M6 toll and sometimes not; depending whether or not I'm in a hurry.

 

But it's nice to have the choice.

 

Personally I'd prefer all motorways to be toll roads - bar stretches in city centres or where tolling is simply not feasible due to the road layout. Then road tax for users who don't use them could come down, and there would be more incentive for passengers and (more importantly) freight to use the railways.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

The interesting thing to me at any rate is that there seems to be no enforced speed limit on the toll road.

I used to work with someone who was in a sports car club and they used to turn up in convoy, all go to a different toll booth and, when everyone had paid, have drag races to the motorway.

[The Stationmaster]

To get north for Members Day in Stafford last year we used the 'ordinary' M6, coming back we used the toll road - and what a difference, actually moving, at speed, on a nearly empty road and saving masses of time into the bargain plus not having the 'entertainment' of being jammed between two ruddy great artics and a road full of traffic fumes. I thought £5.50 to get away from all that was a bargain!

[Talltim]

Living in Chesterfield I've never had cause to use it, however I used to travel from the south to Scotland on the M6 regularly before it was built and never really had any problems on the M6 in the Brum area anyway. I always thought it was a bit of a waste of resources building it.

[Derekl]

M6 toll road - the failure here was to allow a private toll road with no DfT input into the level of toll. How do you have a roads policy where you cannot control the level of toll to maximise its use? You can't (although I am not sure that I have much faith in the DfT's ability to get it right, either).

 

A secondary consideration is that the tolling is all through toll-gates, which starts to get problematic if usage rises, as any time saving gets wiped out by the time spent idling in queues to pay the toll.

 

For those who remarked on the British difficulties in setting the tolls, you may like to note that the road is owned by an Australian bank.

 

Speed limits were certainly enforced in the early days, although it is some time since I used it - there were regularly West Midlands police traffic cars on the hard shoulder or the ramps at the side of the road, presumably doing speed monitoring. Perhaps the relatively low level of traffic on the road now makes that less worthwhile.

 

UK motorways were never designed for tolling, and doing so conventionally through tollgates, as in France and Italy, for instance, is difficult because the UK system has far more closely spaced junctions (as you would expect, given the relative population densities) and it would both be difficult to set up toll booths, given the road layouts, and I guess appalling expensive to build and man. Thus the auto-tolling idea that has been floated. In France and Italy, there are substantial distances between junctions, typically 30 to 50 km, and where they run through urban areas with more closely spaced junctions, they are effectively toll-free for local traffic.

 

I lived in Greater Manchester (Altrincham, to be exact) when the poll on road pricing took place. I voted for, perhaps with some self interest, as I used Metrolink or National Rail to travel in and out of the city in the peaks, but I also thought the public interest best served by the improvements to Metrolink that the tolling was supposed to pay for. Predictably, the vote went against. Despite the dire threats at the time, I see that other means of funding Metrolink improvements have now been found and they are currently going ahead. One could get slightly cynical.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....It seems to be a peculiarly British thing to want to denigrate those who are prepared to pay for a better service.

I sometimes use the M6 toll and sometimes not; depending whether or not I'm in a hurry.

But it's nice to have the choice. .......

 

Well said !

 

........I thought £5.50 to get away from all that was a bargain!

 

Worth every penny in my experience. We use "the Toll" every time when travelling from the South Coast to the NW & v.v.

The only downside is that the M6T ends too soon and you end up joining the over congested M6 for the awful slog all the way up to the Cheshire border.

 

 

 

.

[trisonic]

We have toll roads around Gotham City that are called Parkways - what joy, trucks/lorries are banned from them.

 

Best, Pete.

[Guest Moria]

If I read this correctly, that is about 13p/km, correct? From my point of view, that is quite expensive (about $0.20/km in our money). Our local toll highway (407ETR - I don't use it for financial and political reasons) costs between $0.20 and $0.25 per km, plus $0.60 trip charge, plus either $3 a month if you have a transponder, or $3 a month + $3.80 a trip if you don't. A single non-transponder trip of 27 miles (the same as the M6(T)) would cost $18.20 or about 12 pounds. The private company that runs it increases the rates quite regularly on the grounds that they aren't making enough money (despite the traffic levels and the tolls being significantly higher than forecast when the highway was built). Note that I don't object to paying bridge tolls, or to using the New York Throughway (at approx $0.03/km) or other toll roads where the tolls are reasonable.

 

Edit. If I read the 407ETR traffic level information correctly, they should be grossing about $480M per year...

 

Adrian

 

I ALWAYS use the 407.. in many tests I have done with friends who refuse to use it, I actually save more in Gas costs by not standing still with the engine running than I pay in the tolls, and ALWAYS get to the destination first so have more time to enjoy myself Last trip to Niagara with friends, I got there early enough to get a room upgrade as well for free (last one to do so that night) and had had a meal by the time the friends arrived having used the 401 and other various routes.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[chris p bacon]

Number one son uses the toll road when he has to spend a day in Telford, the difference it makes is enormous, without it his working day would be such that he would have to stay over, he also remarks that it makes for a less stressful journey, as others have said you don't find yourself squeezed between 2 lorries where one has forgotten what mirrors are for.

 

On a seperate note I always find it amusing that people think that road tax pays for the roads, I've always understood it to be a tax on having the luxury of owning a car. If the things we pay tax on were to benefit from that tax, can someone explain the tax on cigarettes?

[kevinlms]

M6 toll road - the failure here was to allow a private toll road with no DfT input into the level of toll. How do you have a roads policy where you cannot control the level of toll to maximise its use? You can't (although I am not sure that I have much faith in the DfT's ability to get it right, either).

 

A secondary consideration is that the tolling is all through toll-gates, which starts to get problematic if usage rises, as any time saving gets wiped out by the time spent idling in queues to pay the toll.

 

For those who remarked on the British difficulties in setting the tolls, you may like to note that the road is owned by an Australian bank.

 

Speed limits were certainly enforced in the early days, although it is some time since I used it - there were regularly West Midlands police traffic cars on the hard shoulder or the ramps at the side of the road, presumably doing speed monitoring. Perhaps the relatively low level of traffic on the road now makes that less worthwhile.

 

UK motorways were never designed for tolling, and doing so conventionally through tollgates, as in France and Italy, for instance, is difficult because the UK system has far more closely spaced junctions (as you would expect, given the relative population densities) and it would both be difficult to set up toll booths, given the road layouts, and I guess appalling expensive to build and man. Thus the auto-tolling idea that has been floated. In France and Italy, there are substantial distances between junctions, typically 30 to 50 km, and where they run through urban areas with more closely spaced junctions, they are effectively toll-free for local traffic.

 

I lived in Greater Manchester (Altrincham, to be exact) when the poll on road pricing took place. I voted for, perhaps with some self interest, as I used Metrolink or National Rail to travel in and out of the city in the peaks, but I also thought the public interest best served by the improvements to Metrolink that the tolling was supposed to pay for. Predictably, the vote went against. Despite the dire threats at the time, I see that other means of funding Metrolink improvements have now been found and they are currently going ahead. One could get slightly cynical.....

 

A few points.

 

I'm surprised that it has toll booths, surely that's poor practice from many points? The cost of collecting tolls must be quite high and they slow traffic down & possibly create queues with people searching for correct money & the like.

In Australia there are a number of toll roads, all with electronic tolling done at normal road speed. All use a similar scheme in that the electronic tags are all compatible and you get a unified bill from your preferred provider at no extra cost. If you don't have a tag, you get 3 days to get a pass, or a significant fine - it used to be a major problem for rental car companies, but now they have automated that, so it goes onto the cost of car hire (credit card).

 

 

Sure, no one likes paying a toll, but the reality is that these toll roads IMO save so much time that there is no contest and of course there is a choice as to whether to use them or not. Many like EastLink, wouldn't have been built for years, had it not been done with private money. Lots of politics of course, but I won't go into that here.

 

 

The owners of your M6 are Maquarie who are an investment bank & not an 'ordinary' one. Well known for the outrageous 'fees & dividends' paid to senior management (at least that was the case & now struggling a bit - couldn't happen to nicer people).

 

Kevin Martin

[ess1uk]

I use the A5.

It might be a bit slower, but it's free and saves the queues round Coventry, still have the trouble at the A14 Catthorpe though.

[Jenny Emily]

I've been driving an artic that has a tag in the window, so I use it from time to time. Speed limits certainly are enforced, as I've seen a copper sitting under the bridge coming from Norton Canes services with his ray gun pointing at traffic a lot, usually followed by some lead footed beamer driver getting a tug.

 

The toll tag actually allows the brave to travel at at least 50mph through the tolls, as when the road first opened and there were no toll area speed limits I tried it (building up the speed every trip). The barriers always lifted quick enough to miss the front of the lorry. I suspect I am one of the people who made them rethink the tag lane for lorries. Well, it was 3am sunday mornings and I was bored.

 

It only saves time during peak hours. The M6 is marginally shorter so that at non peak times it is quicker to pass through bescot and gravelly hill.

[beast66606]

I used to travel to/from Hemel Hempstead, from the North West (M56) several times a week, and to/from Solihull several times a month - I wish the toll had been open in those days, I reckon I wasted several days of my life sitting in traffic jams through Birmingham, and I was felt like I was on first name terms with the staff of the RAC building as I spent so much time crawling through the M6/M5 junction.

 

Taking the politics of it's build out of the equation, it's like most things in life, if you want to use it do so, if not then don't grumble about those who do.

 

I always use it now when I go back to the North West - from East Anglia.

[Welly]

It's all very well paying £5.50 for the M6 Toll road ( or should we call it the Birmingham Northern Turnpike? ) when one only needs to go that way occasionally but it is a way too expensive daily commute ( on top of petrol, tax etc ) for ordinary wage slaves who needs the car.

 

Oh Jenny Emily - I love the account of your charging at the barriers in your artic!!!

[beast66606]

It's all very well paying £5.50 for the M6 Toll road ( or should we call it the Birmingham Northern Turnpike? ) when one only needs to go that way occasionally but it is a way too expensive daily commute ( on top of petrol, tax etc ) for ordinary wage slaves who needs the car.

 

Try living on the Wirral and working in Liverpool ...

[Welly]

^^^

You got me looking up the Mersey Tunnel tolls and it is £1.50 cash, £1.30 tagged per car? Rather less than the M6T by the looks of it.

 

http://www.merseytunnels.co.uk/nossl/html/fees.php

 

Looking up the M6T fees, the tagged discount looks utterly miserly!

 

http://www.m6toll.co.uk/pricing/pricing-guide/

[Oldddudders]

Wot a wonderfully polarised thread! I can't recall how much it cost the last time I drove that way - probably 2005 - but it didn't seem very much for the easier passage it offers. £5.50 per day - or £11, presumably - would seem a bit expensive, but for occasional use it's fine. 20+ years ago Deb was driving daily through the Dartford Tunnel (pre-bridge) so the idea of paying doesn't seem very remarkable. We have a French "motorway doofer" (transponder) and often use the autoroute for short-ish trips just to make for a bit of variety - the roads here really aren't that crowded.

[beast66606]

^^^

You got me looking up the Mersey Tunnel tolls and it is £1.50 cash, £1.30 tagged per car? Rather less than the M6T by the looks of it.

 

http://www.merseytun...l/html/fees.php

 

And the price per mile ?

 

PS - there's no sensible alternative to the Mersey Tunnels, free or otherwise, so short and curlies springs to mind

[BlackRat]

I dont think its being elitist to use the toll roads, but as has been said, we pay literally a small fortune in tax and seem to get little in the way back for it, where roads and highway maintenance are concerned.

 

More so of late.

 

Each time I fill my Polo, I estimate about £40 or more is tax, and I for one would like better value for money!

 

Between Mrs BR and myself, its over £1500 a year

 

ps the Tamar Bridge works out at approx £3 per mile!

[Welly]

And the price per mile ?

 

PS - there's no sensible alternative to the Mersey Tunnels, free or otherwise, so short and curlies springs to mind

 

Fair point, Dave. When you said "no sensible alternative" I had to look up the annual season ticket prices for Merseyrail and it goes from £482 to £982 per year depending on your travel zone! http://www.merseyrail.org/tickets/railpass-promotion.html

[Deano]

It's all very well paying £5.50 for the M6 Toll road ( or should we call it the Birmingham Northern Turnpike? ) when one only needs to go that way occasionally but it is a way too expensive daily commute ( on top of petrol, tax etc ) for ordinary wage slaves who needs the car.

 

 

Exactly, when we are all paying by the mile to use the motorways and the roads watch everyone moan. I'll put money on it we'll all hark back to the good old days of the road tax! Accept these experiments as "wonderful" at our peril.