Stuart-AU Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 HI.. Looking to buy some LMS/BK 20 ton brake van but need to know what Duckets are and what do they done? Thanks Stuart-AU Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted June 26, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 26, 2012 Duckets are projecting panels from the sides of a brake / guard's van, which can be on either passenger or freight stock, fitted with narrow windows to permit observation of the signals and line ahead. A representative image is here: the ducket is the central panel which stands proud of the body side. http://www.3mmsociety.org.uk/Galleries/gallery4wagons2/IMG_2553.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Usefully allows the guard to look along the length of the train without his head coming into contact with bridges, signals or passing trains. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted June 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2012 Although tanking along at 40mph on jointed track his head is likely to make regular contact with the ducket panel... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2012 Although tanking along at 40mph on jointed track his head is likely to make regular contact with the ducket panel... Which is why on decently provided ducket arrangements there was plenty of (horsehair stuffed) padding around them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54Strat Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Baby ducks? btw, I've already got me coat.. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
souwest Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 And "Ogees " was what the longer duckets on pre-grouping brake carriages were called. Souwest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 And "Ogees " was what the longer duckets on pre-grouping brake carriages were called. Certainly on the LNWR (and possibly LSWR?) but I don't remember seeing them referred to as ogees by any other company. The GE simply called duckets of all shapes and lengths - and there were plenty of variations over the years - 'lookouts'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krusty Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 The GE simply called duckets of all shapes and lengths - and there were plenty of variations over the years - 'lookouts'. All the prototype working drawings that I've looked at refer to lookouts as lookouts. My impression is that ducket is just another one of those oddball modeller terms, rather than a proper railway term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 All the prototype working drawings that I've looked at refer to lookouts as lookouts. My impression is that ducket is just another one of those oddball modeller terms, rather than a proper railway term. Naaaaah. A 'Lookout' is the person what stands at the side of the track with some flags and detonators to keep a watch for approaching trains and warn the staff he is protecting in time for them to stand clear of the line before the train runs over them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 All the prototype working drawings that I've looked at refer to lookouts as lookouts. My impression is that ducket is just another one of those oddball modeller terms, rather than a proper railway term. I believe the term 'Ducket' is indeed one only used by enthusiasts and modellers. I think they were actually refered to as 'Guards lookouts' by railwaymen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinRS Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I believe the term 'Ducket' is indeed one only used by enthusiasts and modellers. I think they were actually refered to as 'Guards lookouts' by railwaymen. All the prototype working drawings that I've looked at refer to lookouts as lookouts. My impression is that ducket is just another one of those oddball modeller terms, rather than a proper railway term. According to a quotation from an official LNER report (the 1929 Annual Report of the LNER Central Wagon Control Office) 'ducket' is in fact a term used by at least one railway company. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129879-lner-toad-b-20t-brake-van-announced/page-2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Seems ducket is a name for buildings that are used for lookouts. Possibly coming from dovecot. https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101301545-olliver-ducket-aske#.W9TxpPZFzIU http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1688240 https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g199125-d3559207-i227852750-Duckett_s_Grove-Carlow_County_Carlow.html Even the Americans seem to use it. http://nhlr.org/lookouts/us/nc/duckett-top-lookout/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2018 HI.. Looking to buy some LMS/BK 20 ton brake van but need to know what Duckets are and what do they done? Thanks Stuart-AU Duckets are small ducks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2018 I seem to remember them being called duckets on goods brake vans in the 70s at Canton, but the windows were called lookouts. As Stationmaster Mike says, there was a horsehair stuffed leather cush behind your head so that you could comfortably (by which I mean slightly less agonisingly) use the lookouts, and similarly cushioned shoulder pads to take the impact of jerks, snatches, and bumps. It was a rough old life, and one was advised to stay in the seat as much as possible while the train was moving or about to be moving. The handbrake wheel could be reached from the seat position. Of course, you had to get up to tend to lamps, exchange handsignals with the driver, or stoke the stove, in which case a 'one hand for the ship' approach was best. At least the GW toads, which necessitated getting up and walking outside to use the brake and which had no view forward from inside the cabin, were no more. Many (but by no means all) drivers took pride in giving you the best ride they could, but it is the nature of a brake van at the end of a train of spring loaded drawhooks coupled together and with play between each set of buffers that it is fairly normal for the van to be snatched into motion from by the wagon in front doing maybe 20mph, only to smash into it at about 10mph immediately as the drawhook springs recover.. Any attempt to slow the train down by the driver might similarly result in the van running into the wagon in front with a speed difference of about 20mph, and double that with an emergency stop in the case of a long train. No wonder the bodies creaked and worked, creating draughts everywhere. You could lessen the impacts with the brake if you were alert and quick of the mark, some of the time at least; I once managed to hear the buffers and get to the brake just in time on a Class 25 hauled Severn Tunnel Jc-Cardiff Tidal Sidings Class 8 transfer freight on which the deadman's had gone in at Marshfield on the down relief without the driver's intending it. He came back down the train to check I was ok, convinced he'd at least injured me and worried that he'd done worse than that, and was most apologetic, although he couldn't help the situation and I didn't hold it against him; it was a known issue with Class 25s. I'd banged my shoulder on the pad pretty hard and was sore for a few days, and put it in the accident book in case, but suffered no real harm. A common freight guard's injury would result from rough 'snatch' starts, with the van suddenly taking off from rest in a violent and unannounced manner; if the guard was standing up and not holding on he would be propelled through the door, head first over the balcony, roll off the platform and into the 4 foot. This was not only painful but highly undignified; I can genuinely say I was never caught out by it! As I say, a rough old life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinRS Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 The LNER Encyclopedia uses the word 'ducket' at https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12809 and shows a photograph of a 'Departmental 6 wheeler', in which one of the side duckets is visible. I have found a web page at the Vintage Carriages Trust: Museum Of Rail Travel, which uses the word, although they use the spelling 'duckett' rather than the more common (if still obscure) spelling with a single 't'.See See http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=928I have also found a document at the National Railway Museum which uses the word.See https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-05/London-North-Eastern-Railway-Carriage-Wagon-Drawings-Lists-0518.pdfI think it is correct to say that the word is used beyond the modelling community. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 To me, the word feels as if it might have originated from something French, such as duquet or duquer, but that might be too much Keeping up Appearances influence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Looking to buy some LMS/BK 20 ton brake van but need to know what Duckets are and what do they done? Etymology and terminology aside, this is the Bachmann LMS brake van with duckets: And this is the one without: Spot the difference. (Apart from the colour - on which point, the LMS started painting new goods wagons bauxite rather than grey in 1936 so you may need to keep that in mind as well. In other words: if your layout is set pre-1936, the bauxite one would definitely be anachronistic.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2018 Duckets are small ducks. And I remember many years ago, the 80s, having 'duckettes' in a restaurant in Kidderminster while on a canal holiday. These were lovely; duck meat in crispy breadcrumbs. Presumably in railway use they would refer to the smaller type of lookout on French railways, although in the French way of expressing things this would more likely be something along the lines of 'fenetre visages d'observation de chemin de fer' or something... French is a beautiful language, and there is a lot of it! I like the idea that the word originates from dovecote, which I suppose in the olden days when lookouts had to be kept for the baddies (the Welsh or Scots if you are English; guess who if you are Welsh or Scottish) were high enough to serve as lookout posts in troubled times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2018 Ducket is akin to a word I often use when my modelling efforts haven't quite met the ambition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2018 And I remember many years ago, the 80s, having 'duckettes' in a restaurant in Kidderminster while on a canal holiday. These were lovely; duck meat in crispy breadcrumbs. That's enough thank you.............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 To me, the word feels as if it might have originated from something French, such as duquet or duquer, but that might be too much Keeping up Appearances influence. I couldn't find any word resembling either spelling in the French dictionary here. In Northumberland, 'ducket' is another form of 'dovecot'; perhaps the slot-like windows in the guard's duckets were seen as resembling the 'pigeon holes' in a dovecot. The French equivalent to the railway 'ducket' would be 'guérite', though they preferred the 'birdcage' sort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Ducket is akin to a word I often use when my modelling efforts haven't quite met the ambition. It's the key immediately to the right of 'D'...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Duckets are small ducks. Ducklettes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 The idea that the word is of French origin is most probably a canard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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