Just when did train travel become such an ordeal?

[gronk the shunter]

Having nothing better to do today I decided to take advantage of what I thought was a cheap fair, £11 return from Atherton near Wigan to Chester, stop off at Warrington and Crewe and take some photo's of the railway, some of trains but mostly of track and infrastructure to help with modelling, but what an ordeal!!

I rarely travel by train these days other than hopping on a pacer to manchester to avoid the parking costs. Those journeys are bouncy, bouncy, very very bouncy but short, quick and convenient and most of all cheap. But despite all the bouncy bus like qualities I can always see out of a window and fit into a seat without straining/tweaking something which I'd prefer not to strain or tweak now I'm heading for my frail dotage! Having used six trains today only one of them was approaching comfortable, and that was another Pacer!!

Now before you start to think of me as some 20 ton Leviathan, let me explain I can happily fit in a mark 1 MX5, which is no limousine, I'm an average 5'11" and although slightly rounder in the mid section than I'd prefer I tip the scales at 15 stone and a bit, which is hardly freakishly large.

 

On a pendolino, a dark dismal cavern of a coach, no view at all and fairly uncomfortable seats.

On a super voyager (far from super) a seat which was too high, my feet didn't feel like they were planted on the floor, too vertical and no leg room.

On a second super voyager another uncomfortable seat but it was inexplicably different in every way. Far more leg room, seemed lower and more raked, but no view and no thigh support, I felt perched on a couple of inches of hard padded seat.

On a 175, much better, even comfortable, but the journey was completely ruined by sitting behind some ipod wearing wine swigging scumbag who kept attempting to proposition every under 18 female on the train and was either a drunken yob, a tourette's sufferer or more likely a drunken tourette's suffering paedophillic yob,........ which is nice!

 

Now the point of my rant is this, many moons ago I loved train travel. I have many memories of sitting in comfortable seats on Mk1's and 2's and 3's where there were lots of tables and seats that you could actually sit on without needing to arrange an appointment with a physio soon afterwards. There were windows that although sometimes dirt,y were by your seat and you could look out of them! and by and large the noise you heard wasn't drum and bass played through miniscule speakers or a stream of obscenity and sexual harrassment, it was people talking, children chattering, locomotives making locomotive sounds and if you were unlucky babies crying, which unfortunately what babies often are known to do.

 

Is this false memory syndrome? Does all this mean I'm getting old? Or is travel by train these days just an ordeal?

Where did it all go wrong????

 

yours in a state of melancholic nostalgia

 

Depressed of Bolton

[Kris]

It went wrong for long distance rail travel when the coach designers went for cramming in more seats over passenger comfort. One less row of seats per coach would give everyone an extra couple of inches of leg room and the additional comfort this can bring.

[rodshaw]

I generally dislike train travel (even quiet coaches aren't very) and remember liking it when younger. Whether it's a sign of age (things have obviously changed a lot) I have no idea. Things do get very different when you're the responsible one rather than being an adventurous youth or under your parents' wing. But it also depends a lot on the other people in your coach.

 

Having said that, I recently went on a 'heritage' steam train ride and it was pretty uncomfortable.

[Richard E]

It seems to be a not unusual problem for some folk, in fact I have been known to suffer as well - many call it the Victor Meldrew syndrome

 

Travel by train is, indeed, less enjoyable than many of us recall, in part due to the rise of antisocial behaviour by others by way of public drunkenness, foul language, unwelcome noise and other less than savoury habits.

[gronk the shunter]

It seems to be a not unusual problem for some folk, in fact I have been known to suffer as well - many call it the Victor Meldrew syndrome

 

 

 

I don't bloody believe it!!!

 

Sorry couldn't resist!

[Glorious NSE]

The antisocial behavior isn't necessarily a new thing either...the MP3 players used to be Walkmans though, and drunks....well look at the Victoria Wood trip from back in the 80s...

[frobisher]

Not travelled much by rail in the last 20 odd years, but have done so more recently, mostly because of work.

 

The Super Voyager actually strikes me as pretty decent - provided it's a Virgin one. The seats at tables (and let's face it, why wouldn't you book a table seat near a power socket these days..?) line up with the windows, have decent leg room and those nice exentdable tables. It was certainly a better experience than I remember of the HSTs on the ECML during the late 80's/early 90's. Certainly a more pleasant experience than most internal flights...

 

Cross Country's version of the same is pretty dismal however

 

i do miss the Southern Region MK1 EMUs of my youth from the point of view of comfort and travelling experience for the "short hops" but these days it's about getting to the destination not the journey.

[gronk the shunter]

 

 

but these days it's about getting to the destination not the journey.

 

and that's a shame isn't it!

[trisonic]

You need to read the first chapter of Paul Theroux's "The Kingdom by the Sea" for a memorable rail trip to Margate in the company of Skinheads (Mk.2) in 1982. Of course the Skinheads (Mk.1) were no better either in the late '60's.

 

I like trains but not to ride in.

 

Best, Pete.

[Raffles]

The antisocial behavior isn't necessarily a new thing either...the MP3 players used to be Walkmans though, and drunks....well look at the Victoria Wood trip from back in the 80s...

 

Some of us still have (and use) a Walkman...

[APOLLO]

I use the Wigan-Manchester and Liverpool services often, and agree it's sometimes a pain on the train. Uncomfortable seats, our "fellow" passengers (all age groups, some nasty old ###### around here !!). Worst thing is the view out of the window. What little railway infrastructure left is festooned with vegetation - everywhere, almost getting to tropical rainforest proportions (well it is Manchester !!).

 

On the good side the services are frequent & fairy punctual. Cheap as well to Wigan to Manchester, though Wigan to Liverpool is nearly double the fare for around the same distance. (different PTE).

 

Agree re Voyagers and Pendolinos - nightmare long distance. Bring back the HST's & 'lectric hauled MK 3's.

 

Brit 15

[frobisher]

and that's a shame isn't it!

 

A little bit, yes. It's the whole getting older thing, and these being work trips with travel being that annoying bit that eats up the working day. Recent experiences have got me trying to work out ways of using the train where possible rather than internal flights (there's a whole long rant here about how can flights possibly be cheaper than train journeys - though going with EasyJet you can start imagining some of the "why").

[Xerces Fobe2]

It all went wrong when Guards/Luggage vans were abolished so that pushchairs and bikes then came into the passenger areas quite often blocking the doors. The other thing that happened was was the 2+2 + table design for coaching stock was abolished. IMO not only are the Voyagers not fit for purpose the same applies to the Pendolinos hence why the Prentendolino set is so popular I now loath traveling by train apart from Chiltern. Underground and preserved railways. When the railway companies provide a quality service I might then use my BMW less!

 

XF

[Xerces Fobe2]

It all went wrong when Guards/Luggage vans were abolished so that pushchairs and bikes then came into the passenger areas quite often blocking the doors

 

I refer you to my post #8

 

Thats not the TOC's fault. or the Unit - That is what the guard is there for........

 

What a guard on FGW London services you may see a conductor once in a while but not in the peaks on a 165 or 166 Turbo!

 

XF

[gronk the shunter]

. IMO not only are the Voyagers not fit for purpose the same applies to the Pendolinos

 

XF

 

For ages now I've been thinking what a good idea the e-voyager is, fitting pantograph cars into the 221/222's, although after travelling in them unless the new cars have more tables and better seats I think the best thing to do would be export them all to Bulgaria and ask for our 87's back!

[buffalo]

...and let's face it, why wouldn't you book a table seat near a power socket these days..?...

Perhaps so that you only have to put up with the irritating habits of one other person rather than three? Perhaps because you prefer not to repeatedly kicked by the person opposite?

 

Who really needs a power socket? I'm happy with a view out of the window or, failing that, something to read.

 

Nick

[andyman7]

Before we descend into a complete ###### of how great it was in the old days, is anyone seriously going to suggest that (from the average passenger point of view) an Electrostar or Desiro is not a quantam leap improvement over a VEP?

[frobisher]

Perhaps so that you only have to put up with the irritating habits of one other person rather than three? Perhaps because you prefer not to repeatedly kicked by the person opposite?

 

Who really needs a power socket? I'm happy with a view out of the window or, failing that, something to read.

 

Given I need to get work done on the train, I definately need a power socket and a table - oh and WiFi is pretty much essential too.

[meil]

No ones mentioned the stinking toilets of the Pendelinos.

[frobisher]

Before we descend into a complete ###### of how great it was in the old days, is anyone seriously going to suggest that (from the average passenger point of view) an Electrostar or Desiro is not a quantam leap improvement over a VEP?

 

I dunno, the VEPs had a certain charm. Having your own door to get out at stations made getting on and off a lot less hassle compared with dragging yourself (plus bags) onto a Electrostar and trying to find somewhere for your bags to go (VEP it's pretty much a case of "that luggage rack is MINE!!!"). Of course there was the magnificent space of the guard's van as well for those times if you had a veritable mountain of luggage a bike (before they removed them of course )

 

But all told I preferred the CIGs especially if you could blag a table.

[petethemole]

On the Bournemouth line. either the 4 REP or the 4TC had a compartment first with one 2nd compartment at the end. Outside the peak periods most people didn't know it was there as the coach was perceived as all first. It was even better than 2+2 with tables, and great for a kip coming back from London late. I still miss compartment stock!

Pete

[Derekl]

I have to second Andyman7. I commuted from Hove to London in the late 70's/early 80's. The Littlehamptons regularly had 4VEPs rather than the better suited 4CIGs for the roughly hour long journey (from Hove, longer for those further back). The combination of ice cold winter air leaking through the door seals and vicious heat from the underseat heaters on the back of the legs every time the train slowed or accelerated was not a pleasant experience in winter (less of a problem in summer). And that is not to mention the sometimes interesting rough riding. I don't use the line that much now, but current stock is a lot more pleasant, albeit sometimes a little overcrowded.

I agree with Frobisher that the 4VEP/CIG had a certain charm - one being that there was sufficient luggage space, somewhat absent from the Electrostars, the other being reasonable confidence that it would get there.

I currently reasonably regularly use the ECML from York, FTPE 185's to Manchester and occassional Cross-Country Voyagers. Whether or not there is somebody with earphones at high volumes (and I have to say that I have not noticed that much - perhaps because the racket from the underfloor Cummins is worse) the Voyagers are just not pleasant. The seating is not great, you will be lucky to be able to look out of the window, and the constricted carraige width makes it a little claustrophobic.

The 185's are pleasant if you can get a table, which needs a little local knowledge as to where the doors are likely to be on platform so you get on more or less first, and even better if you are in the coach with the engine knocked out, but that is a matter of chance.

Riding the East Coast Mk4's and then an East Coast 125 (or, better, a Grand Central 125 with all table seating) makes one realise why the Mk3 was a brilliant coach. Comfortable seat, good soft ride, reasonably quiet, and, if you pick the right train, under 2 hours York to London.

[John M Upton]

Worst trip I have ever had as a passenger was the short hop from Southampton to Basingstoke on a Voyager. Utterly vile badly designed pile of crap with all the ambience of 1950's council flat and none of the charm. The Pendolino I was unexpectedly subbed onto a few weeks later was little better.

 

Best of the current stock in my opinion is the SWT Class 444's. Quiet, smooth, does the job it is supposed to.

[ClikC]

I agree with most of the4 above sentiments. To me, the downward turn was the Voyager. How the hell can a 4 car unit replace what was a load 7 service?! Espically now that train useage has gone up?! My head is full of .....

 

It's so bad I normally go out of my way to travel by any other TOC. Unfortunatly had to break this rule for the 10th, so I can visit BarrowHill.

 

Wish me luck ey?

 

On a related note, anyone remember relief services? And in the age of health and safety, I always wondered why people were allowed to be crammed into the vestibules on standing room only services, are they not Crumple Zones by design?

 

Matt

[Gwiwer]

I have travelled by train regularly - often as much as daily - over more than 50 years. I recall uncomfortable trips and antisocial passenger behaviour from way back. It does seem to be more prevalent now but is that only in proportion to the increased number of passengers now in the system and the greater population as a whole?

 

I had a preference for certain kinds of rolling stock. The Mk1 stock with 3-a-side second class compartments or the (seldom-found, so it seemed) SO with 2+1 second class seating were great! When I commuted frmo the Sussex coast to London Bridge a CIG was the normal fare but the early 1963 batch were much preferred over the later ones with harder seats and no headrests. Later in life I commuted (weekly) between Hayle and Manor Park ( ) preferring the HST seating to that of the 158 I was obliged to set out on and both won out over the 315 sets used on the Great Eastern.

 

Facts are facts. We have vastly more passengers now travelling on far more trains. Those trains are not (by and large) owned by their operators any more and are fitted out to be people-shifters first and anything else a poor second. The passenger train no longer conveys parcels, newspapers, merchandise ..... and accommodation is no longer needed for this. That is partially the result of rail fragmentation through the privatisation process and partially down to changes in socuiety and technology as a whole.

 

Are we more grumpy and less tolerant? On the whole no. But when we are jam-packed into a metal tube with many hundreds of othes and our comfort levels are compromised then yes we can be obnoxious and antisocial in the extreme.