Just when did train travel become such an ordeal?

[Pacific231G]

The answer to the original question "Just when did train travel become such an ordeal?" is probably the day after the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester. If you've read books like "Taken for a Ride" or other accounts of railway travel through history you'll know that railway companies were never exactly solicitous of the welfare of their passengers. When railways had a monopoly of transport their directors seem to have been about as popular as bankers are today.

[Re6/6]

I will always travel by HST in this neck of the woods if possible. Even they are bad enough after the 'refurbishment' into 'cattle class' overseen by a notorious ex-MD (stuffing more folk into tight claustrophobic seats)

 

A couple of weeks ago I had the misfortune to travel from Totnes to Newcastle on a Voyager when I was accompanied by a dozen or so of Rab C Nesbit's relatives who were slightly intoxicated, noisy and obnoxious (no sleight on the Scots intended!)....toilets filthy and smelly...etc.. and above all damned uncomfortable, giving the passenger 'vom1ter bottom' after 8 or so hours aboard.

[SquireBev]

I'd like to counter the negativity in this thread by saying that, by and large, I enjoy travelling by train.

 

On the other hand, I've had some pretty godawful journeys, most notably on the WCML from Manchester to Birmingham. There was an EDL rally in Stoke, and so the train was full of loud, violent, racist skinhead morons, chanting in the aisles, smoking in the vestibules, and generally making a nuisance of themselves.

Happily, there was a large BTP presence at the station.

[roundhouse]

Our trip last weekend in the quiet coach in a Voyager wasnt quiet!!

 

Luckily we were only on it from Reading to Banbury.

 

Quite often we will pay the upgrade to first class if travelling at the weekend, and sometimes the Advance first class ticket is cheaper than the cheapest standard class ticket. However, at weekends dont always expect to get the complimentary tea as the trolley often doesnt make all the way along the train even on a two hour journey.

 

However I still prefer travelling by train than driving - even more important is that we are normally visiting various pubs so driving is definitely out!!

[gronk the shunter]

Ironically it does seem that it's the trains you are expected to spend the most time on, the long distance trains that have suffered the most in regards to comfort and especially space. For example a 350 desiro is streets ahead of a 304 (those trampoline sprung seats meant that you were actually airborne for about 50% of the journey from Crewe to Lime street!) but a voyager is poor compared to any loco hauled stock, likewise pendolino's in standard class (first class is sooooo much better) compared to mk III's and refurb HST's with those squashed in tombstone seats are terrible compared with the original layout. This trend doesn't bode well for IEP "super express train". I can easily see it being a "super extra strain" instead

[roythebus]

I don't find travelling by train such an ordeal and never really have done. It's what your perception of what it should be is!

 

As Gwiwer says, more people on more trains. I don't have a need to use trains that often, usually the HS1 from Ashford to London, seats a bit uncomfortable but hey, only for 38 minutes, or the Marsh Line diesels to Brighton. Probably the worst "ordeal" journey was a 313 from Portmouth Harbour to Brighton earlier this year!

 

The designers of road coaches have taken on board what the public WANTS, and that is more leg room,by de-seating standard 13m coaches from 53 to 47, or making longer coaches! Hence the rise in popularity of the road coach.

 

The only Pendolinos I've been on were Euston to Liverpool and back a few years ago, quite comfortable and quick, but again no seat near a window. Probably the best journey in the last few years was Liverpool Street to Norwich, 86 hauled Mk2s, breakfast for £8, all you can eat, train very clean, staff excellent and caring, and a good ride to boot.

 

I wouldn't fancy commuting every day, but then I had about 17 years driving the bloody things!!

[Bernard Lamb]

Try the ECML.

Cheap, comfortable, efficient and with (in the vast majority) staff who take a real interest in their job.

Even the train manager refered to a run the other week as fantastic. A 125 clocked 128 for long stretches and peaked at 131.1. Ten minutes early at Kings Cross running non stop frm York. You could see out of the windows, be fed at your seat, plug in the 'puter. Ordeal? None I can see, unless you have to use FCC to get o a main station.

Ordeal? Try the WCML. Main line trains are totally unacceptable and I would rather go well out of my way to use an alternatie. Local trains are diabolical. I reckon about one in eight journeys have been on time in the last few years, which of course is a vast improvement over the period before that when the ongoing "improvements" were taking place.

Bernard

[Adam]

Ok, having, for the purposes of work travelled a lot by train in recent months, anything that isn't a FGW 158 has been clean, reasonably comfortable and equipped with sockets and so on which I actually need to do my work. Booking a table seat isn't hard and Pendolinos, contrary to myth, have quite a few of them. Even Voyagers, when not travelling through the evening peak in the Birmingham area, have been fine for a Southampton-Manchester trip though the toilets remain a problem. Granted the refurbished FGW HSTs aren't what they were, but they are spec'ed for the job they do which, like it or not, is predominately commuter work on the Paddington-Bristol corridor. That modern stock has bodyshells designed with tilt in mind does limit space, but it could be a lot worse, as my last (and it will be) experience of Nat-Ex's road operation taught me.

 

Compared to the clapped out, and increasingly ill-cared for (the difference between Anglia and National Express was almost immediately obvious) mark 2s I was forced to put up when living in Norwich a few years ago and earlier, when I was a child living on the Waterloo-Exeter route (these were just as clapped out, but dirtier and a lot less punctual: the 159s were a revelation in terms of comfort, cleanliness and accelerated the timetable). Now the problem with the Mark 2s was probably the ride quality rather than anything else, occasioned by worn-out bogies and indifferent track but I never actually found the seats in either these or the original mark 3s very comfortable. 4 VEPs had all the worst features of compartment stock - draughts - with few of the benefits and negligible sound insulation in the motor coaches, a problem shared by the Wessex Electrics. Just some thoughts from a regular traveller.

 

Adam

[Glorious NSE]

How the hell can a 4 car unit replace what was a load 7 service?!

 

It didn't - two of them operating at twice the frequency replaced a load 7 service. That the law of unintended consequences kicked in and the plan didn't work is a matter for history, but it's not true that their introduction was intentionally a drop in capacity...

 

I think a full internal rework could produce a Voyager that's quite nice, they do have *some* redeeming features, for instance they have lovely big windows (compare with the arrow-slits on a Pendolino) - replace the toilets (and only one needs to be wheelchair-capable) with ones that work properly and are capable of staying in service for the full length of a diagram, de-cram the seats and reduce the number stuck looking at pillars, whilst you're at it put ones that are more comfortable in (suggest trying the ones on SWTs refurbed 158s....) - whilst that seating mod would produce a drop in seat numbers you could partially offset by less DDA loos, but you might need to cut some more windows in the thing - you should get more seats (in a coach with windows all the way down it) in the E-Voyager project anyhow...

 

I dunno, the VEPs had a certain charm. Having your own door to get out at stations made getting on and off a lot less hassle compared with dragging yourself (plus bags) onto a Electrostar and trying to find somewhere for your bags to go (VEP it's pretty much a case of "that luggage rack is MINE!!!").

 

The downside of the design of course is trying to get off (or on!) past everybodys legs if it's busy and you're sat the wrong side of the coach for the platform!

[Gwiwer]

Current WCML operations lead me to seek alternatives if possible. One expects a Pendo on most services with all their presumed faults from a passenger comfort point of view. Chester / Holyhead trains are now formed of the dreaded Voyagers but so also are some which could and should be electrics such as what are no doubt rolling stock fill-in turns to Crewe or points north. Then there are the LM long-distance trains from Euston to Birmingham or beyond. Those "locals" used to be formed of 310 and then 321 stock both of which might be considered better than the 350s now offered though it comes down to personal choice.

 

I do not generally find train travel to be an ordeal but a few occasions on which it most certainly was include a Cambrian coast loco-hauled working (Pwllheli - Birmingham) back in the 1970s chock full of inebriated "bellowers" who persistently eased the communication cord downwards to increase the strain on the locomotive - and caused several emergency stops. In that area there were no Police on hand to attend and the mob remained on the train throughout. Another 1970s trip on the 08.00 (SuO) St. Pancras - Manchester Piccadilly (famed for apparently never using the full MML and on this occasion diverted via Harringworth, Barrow Hill and Woodhead) was increasingly full of juvenile Bay City Rollers fans en route to a gig in Sheffield. Freed from parental controls hanks no doubt to them travelling in groups this mob of 12 - 15 year olds ran riot on the train, trailed scarves from the windows which they held open, "sang" raucously to the annoyance of other passengers and suggested the guard go forth and multiply when station staff were summoned to the train at Leicester in an attempt to calm them down or else remove them.

 

I have encountered a few - a very few - unsavoury characters on trains and at stations but have never felt so unsafe as to require assistance. Travelling down in a compartment from London to Penzance overnight (which dates the trip!) I did find it necessary to suggest the only other occupant to put his male member back inside his clothes; he left the train at Reading having only been a nuisance for a few minutes!

 

But over a great many trips in the UK, Europe and recently in Australia and New Zealand I can say that 99% of the time (even when things go wrong) train travel is not an ordeal. Sometimes better than others but always safe, usually reliable and often comfortable. Can't ask for a lot more really. And at the give-away fares sometimes obtainable now what have we to complain about?

[northendboy]

I travel on the train a lot these days, as my employer now pays an expenses mileage rate that is appreciably lower than the actual cost of running the car, and I do object a little to having to subsidise my work trips. Anyhow, in my humble, a bit of a thumbs up to the 185's which are quite bright and fairly comfortable, a bit of a medium 'meh' to the Voyagers, which are tolerable, but only in comparison with a Pendolino. Cramped and uncomfortable, a bit pungent, and the annoying mis-alignment of seats and windows drives me mad. There's nothing like specifying a window seat and finding that you don't actually have a window; they should be classed as non-aisle seats, and not being able to see out can make you feel a bit queasy as it tilts round the corners.

 

The only upside of the Pendolino is the speed. Just over 2 hours Euston to Preston if you pick the right train makes quite a difference to the overall journey. Though not much chance to nap having consumed a cheeky pint in the Bree Louise prior to leaving.

 

Got on a non-refurbished HST to Bristol the other day and the difference was amazing. All that space. No wonder they crammed in more seats when they 'refurbished' them.

 

Also, went on a heritage trip last weekend in a Frist Class Mk1 which was so comfortable it was like sitting in an armchair. Just as well mind you, we spent nearly 12 hours sitting on the train.

[John M Upton]

Probably the worst "ordeal" journey was a 313 from Portmouth Harbour to Brighton earlier this year!

 

Sorry... Mind you, if you want an interesting experience, you should try riding in the back cab of one of them on the empties back from Portsmouth at midnight, the driver having had a good non-stop run up, usually manages to max out at 75 mph and then things get loud and bouncy!!!

 

They are fine on Hove and Lewes shuttles and do what they were designed for on the West Worthings but Pompey-Brighton really is probably at the extreme limit of their design in terms of passenger facility but that is the DfT for you, they told us we had to use them!!

[Gwiwer]

a 313 from Portmouth Harbour to Brighton

Don't get me started Plenty of alternative options though even on a Southern-specific ticket by changing at Havant

[Captain Kernow]

I used to think that the most comfortable coach to ride in was good condition Mark 1 First Class compartment stock (although I will concede that a decently kitted-out Mark 3 will give it a run for it's money...), until Re6/6 and I had a ride in a First Class compartment in one of the Bluebell Railway's restored Maunsells, which was pure heaven!

 

As for modern stock, I think CrossCountry have got it right with the refurbished HSTs, generally very comfortable.

 

And how about this - the SWT Class 159s - where the Standard Class seating is actually more comfortable (in posterior comfort terms!) than the First Class seating!!

 

As for one's fellow travelling companions, others have pretty much described the current situation.... a 'reflection on society' perhaps?

[John M Upton]

Yep, change at Havant and you have the hourly Southampton to Brighton train which has in fact been improved from a three car to a four car 377 (another change related mostly to DfT micro managing seeing the 377/3's defect mostly to London surburban work by the way). There is also the occasional First Great Western service as well but that is the Russian Roulette of the Coastway West, assuming it turns up that is at is is usually very late!!

[Oldddudders]

I think much of this is about expectation and value for money - undesirable fellow-passengers apart, of course. My occasional trips by train are all free in the UK, and first class where available, so my views have little validity compared to those who pay big bucks. That said, I found a very cosy sort of standard class coupe area in an XC HST was a fine way to enjoy Newton Abbott - Plymouth. The return trip by scheduled double-decker bus was fun of a different sort! The odd Pacer thingies are a bit of a novelty when you don't use them often, but Exeter-Barnstaple and Exeter-Torre were broadly bearable. A 150 NA to Camborne seemed more of a trial, actually. If I have time, I will always choose SWT's 159 over an HST for London - Exeter. It's a better route scenically and the first class in the 159 is really quite spacious. 30 years commuting on SR EMUs means I actually quite like the Electrostars - and they certainly seem to perform. I agree with the Phase 1 CIGs being the best of the bunch where slamdoors were concerned - although I was positively fond of the prototype CEPs, too, in the days when I travelled in the steerage second class.

 

"Cramming 'em in" with more seats than windows became a necessity in the years of rolling stock replacement and maximising revenue under BR. Privatisation is hardly going to reverse that approach, sadly. Just a thought - what sort of rolling stock do we enjoy on preserved railways, and how much do we pay per mile?

[northendboy]

 

"Cramming 'em in" with more seats than windows became a necessity in the years of rolling stock replacement and maximising revenue under BR. Privatisation is hardly going to reverse that approach, sadly. Just a thought - what sort of rolling stock do we enjoy on preserved railways, and how much do we pay per mile?

 

Couldn't agree more on the cramming front, and as for maximising revenue, a standard class return ticket from Preston - London in peak hours is now £287...!!! Even though my Company pays, I just can't reconcile myself with paying those prices. So I quite often wait till the later train on the way back, which saves £140 and gives me time for a beer.

[roundhouse]

Ian

 

I am in Southern Electrostar territory and they are some of the best around today for comfort if sitting in the 2+2 seating sections. Unfortunately at the moment my normal service to London is a FCC 318 which I dont like when they get crowded and if no one wants the window open then they get very stuffy.

 

The old CIGS were great especially the deeper seats on some of them. VEPs on the other hand werent!

 

I also agree that, given the choice, I go via the old LSWR route in SWT's 159's and if its the weekend, pay the first class upgrade - well worth it if travelling most or all the way to Exeter from London area.

[billbedford]

However bad you think the your journey was, it beats walking...........

[PLD]

With reference to the Voyagers: having done a fair number of trips in Hull Train's 'Pioneers' (which were essentially the same unit with a different interior), I did think the HT interior was much brighter and just seemed so much more open, airy and welcoming than my couple of Voyager experiences. From memory the HT interior did have fewer seats and a bigger proportion at tables, and I don't remember ever not having a window...

 

Even the Voyager interior would be preferable though to the current common option of a failed Adelante [= Stand to Doncaster (because EC let you on but of course don't recognise your seat reservation) then bus to Hull (most elderly, decrepit Olympian first South Yorkshire can turn out, fresh off a school run and not swept out since...)]

[John M Upton]

I am in Southern Electrostar territory and they are some of the best around today for comfort if sitting in the 2+2 seating sections. Unfortunately at the moment my normal service to London is a FCC 318 which I dont like when they get crowded and if no one wants the window open then they get very stuffy.

 

I presume you mean 319!!! From what I have seen of FCC's 319's lately, nearly all of them have been completely trashed inside and out mostly by the North London Graffiti Morons and it is clear that FCC really don't give a monkeys about it. Contrast with Southern's fleet where any graffiti and window etching is usually removed from public sight very swiftly and dealt with and interiors are well cleaned every night wherever possible.

 

The 377's are a decent design but do suffer from being a bit of a mix and match of different ideas, the early units were to Connex (spits and geneflects) specification where they apparently invisaged a future with no 1st Class and 100% DOO!! Thus the early series the only difference between 1st Class and standard is a nicely embroidered head rest, the later units thankfully addressed this issue with seperating doors to the compartments although there position is not exactly ideal, patrolling them to ensure it is just 1st Class ticket holders in there (or selling an upgrade) in the free for all scrum and insanity that is East Croydon to Vic/London Bridge in the height of rush hour is absolutely impossible and if sitting in the front one you can get to listen to the driver belching, swearing at the signaller and sometimes even singing as you are going along!!!

 

Early units are now undergoing a refreshment programme so the seats are getting a recover in the Southern astroturf green spec upholstery (but retaining the slightly better more comfortable cushions) and a general through going over internally. It seems with the 377's we have the same specification issues their predecessors the 4-CIG's had!!!

[roundhouse]

Sorry, Yes I did mean 319 - a typo!!

 

Dont mention that word C*****x!!

 

The three car Electrostarshad all 2 + 2, some of the early 4 cars had 2+2 at the ends of each car whilst the later ones dleivered with SOuthern green seating have 2+2 in the outer cars. Most now have been refitted with the Southern green material so its not so obvious of the seating arrangement inside till you get in.

 

Southern staff often only check tickets in the first class areas but last night coming back from Victoria the first class was full of families ( only looked as there was a lot of noise and singing coming from that direction) and no checks so probably a free fall all during the Olympics.

 

Luckily my normal train home from London Bridge has been lengthened to 12 cars since last December so its not as crowded as it used to be.

 

Ian

[Captain Kernow]

However bad you think the your journey was, it beats walking...........

 

It probably also beats going by horse and cart, or even stagecoach, or legging a canal working boat through a long tunnel. I suspect that even taking a sedan chair may have it's limits. I'd should think that riding that kind of distance on an old nag would also wear a bit thin (unless perhaps your name is Horsetan...).

 

It will also beat cycling the same distance on an old bone-shaker, with lots of uphill bits and in driving wind and rain...

 

I suspect it may also beat the same journey by coracle and I certainly wouldn't want to have a piggy-back that distance, even if I was closely related to the person giving me the piggy-back...

 

Whether it beats just staying at home and not making the journey in the first place is another matter...

[Gwiwer]

It probably also beats going by... stagecoach

 

I hear they're quite a reputable firm nowadays

[Richard E]

Try the ECML.

Cheap, comfortable, efficient and with (in the vast majority) staff who take a real interest in their job.

Even the train manager refered to a run the other week as fantastic. A 125 clocked 128 for long stretches and peaked at 131.1. Ten minutes early at Kings Cross running non stop frm York. You could see out of the windows, be fed at your seat, plug in the 'puter. Ordeal? None I can see, unless you have to use FCC to get o a main station.

 

Bernard

 

As a daily commuter on the ECML my view is diametrically opposed. Lateness this year is the highest I have suffered in 6 years of using the ECML, the trains are filthy with shabby seats and carpets. In one case my old mechanics overall would have got dirty with the state of the seats. I have had to throw clothes away after travelling on an EC set due to the uncleanable stains picked up on them. I've seen seats wet with urine and vomit on the first train north of the day as well. Seating is cramped (unless you travel first class) and uncomfortable especially when anyone other than of sylph like proportions is sat next to you. Reliability of the sets is poor due to lack of maintenance (reflected in the poor condition of the fittings as well). However I must say that of late the staff do seem to have picked up a bit but morale was on the floor after the NXEC debacle.

 

Cheap is not a word I would use with the standard open ticket for my daily journey costing £75 return standard class or £125 first class for a return journey of 250 miles. London/York is an eye watering £149 return (first class is £253). Admittedly these prices can be reduced by using advance purchase and season tickets (my season ticket works out at about £30 a day by contrast) but I certainly do not call it cheap for occasional travel when it costs several times the cost of using my own car in single occupancy(that is about £30 return plus, admittedly, wear and tear). If I were travelling with friends or family car would, by necessity, be the choice just on the grounds of cost.