Wright writes.....

[thegreenhowards]

From a modelling perspective and contributor to book one, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth the effort, I certainly don't detect a radical improvement in the representations of trains on model railways due to it's publication. If anything it's probably got worse. Looking through my own collection of material on the GC's London extension (a cupboards worth), it is ultimately bound for the scrap pile. Model railways can turn that into a living, breathing entity. Off course that takes time, and only a small proportion reaches fruition, not through indolence but a considerable amount of hard work. Many will celebrate or nick pick such a publication but how many will act on the information contained within? Such information should be recorded and preserved but within the context of railway modelling, of what use is it if we shall never see it brought to life?

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

From a modelling perspective and contributor to book one, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth the effort, I certainly don't detect a radical improvement in the representations of trains on model railways due to it's publication. If anything it's probably got worse. Looking through my own collection of material on the GC's London extension (a cupboards worth), it is ultimately bound for the scrap pile. Model railways can turn that into a living, breathing entity. Off course that takes time, and only a small proportion reaches fruition, not through indolence but a considerable amount of hard work. Many will celebrate or nick pick such a publication but how many will act on the information contained within? Such information should be recorded and preserved but within the context of railway modelling, of what use is it if we shall never see it brought to life?

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Headstock]

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

just catching up myself. Twins, I think some were still working Kings X, Hitchin and Peterborough North in the time period you are interested in. Probably 2x twin thirds, sorry seconds, a composite and a couple of extras tagged on for good look.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Sure I've seen pictures of Twins on KX - Cambridge trains.

 

manna (AKA Terry)

[Tony Wright]

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

Andy,

 

I assume you mean gangwayed twin-arts? That being the case, most of these will be 1935 Gresley steel-sided twins. These were originally built for outer-suburban services from London, mainly on the GN main line as far as Peterborough. They ran in five-sets, that is BTK-TK/Composite/TK/BTK. The Composite was also steel-sided, but a single vehicle. At peak times, sets were often combined. They worked post-War, but often the Composite would be replaced by a Thompson or Mk. 1 type. 

 

Towards the end of their lives, by now in maroon, they could be seen all along the main line and elsewhere. 

 

The following pictures show some in action. 

 

 

Behing 60144, leaving Grantham on a Down express. 

 

 

As the second/third vehicles behind 60536 at Grantham. The train is lamped-up as an express, but the loco's probably on a running-in turn. There's a colour view of this scene in one of KRP's volumes, showing the whole train. 

 

 

One should always be cautious of assuming twin lamps signify an 'express'. On Sundays, like this, Parlys carried them. 60046 is approaching Retford.

 

 

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY has a pair of twins in tow in an Up express as she (he) passes Eaton Wood.

 

 

 

As does ENTERPRISE, this time leaving Stoke Tunnel.

 

 

Even as late as 1962, these steel twins were still in expresses, though probably as strengtheners. 60049 passes Little Bytham on a Down express.

 

 

Some teak twin gangwayed sets lasted years. Here's an ex-GNR pair in an Up express at Grantham.

 

I hope these are useful. 

 

Edited because one picture has ended up at the bottom, but it shows the twin set as second/third cars. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

just to clarify with regard to your original post as regards suburban traffic. Most of the outer suburban twin sets had been broken up by the late fifties and dispersed within the general carriage stock, so they could be seen all over the place, as in Tony's photographs and as mentioned by Terry. However, as I alluded to above, there were still a couple of traditional twin sets operating as genuine outer suburban trains between Kings Cross and Hitchin etc. Hope this is of help regarding your query on suburban workings.

[unclebobkt]

      ... ..

  ... .  His real admiration though was reserved for the std 9 f. I cannot read his account of having to hand fire the Berkeley stoker fitted 9f on the 4 55 PM Water orton to Carlisle over the settle route....hand fire because of the frequent jamming of the stoker...without being equally drained at the end of the account. Marvellous stuff!

 

   I believe that the SR. tried out a Berkeley stoker in one of Mr. O. Bulleid's 'Spam cans.'.

  That stoker, too, used to suffer from jams.

  The answer, as far as the SR. was concerned,  was found to be in the size of the lumps of coal loaded into the tender - smaller sized lumps didn't jam, but it was labour-intensive to sort the smaller lumps from the larger. 

 Could it be that the British railways were more constrained for space than the American railroads,  and thus the former's curves were of a tighter radius which might have affected the stoker's ability to keep the flow of coal moving? 

      

[landscapes]

Andy,

 

I assume you mean gangwayed twin-arts? That being the case, most of these will be 1935 Gresley steel-sided twins. These were originally built for outer-suburban services from London, mainly on the GN main line as far as Peterborough. They ran in five-sets, that is BTK-TK/Composite/TK/BTK. The Composite was also steel-sided, but a single vehicle. At peak times, sets were often combined. They worked post-War, but often the Composite would be replaced by a Thompson or Mk. 1 type. 

 

Towards the end of their lives, by now in maroon, they could be seen all along the main line and elsewhere. 

 

The following pictures show some in action. 

 

A 60144 Grantham 17.05.59.jpg

 

Behing 60144, leaving Grantham on a Down express. 

 

A 60536 Grantham 21.05.61.jpg

 

As the second/third vehicles behind 60536 at Grantham. The train is lamped-up as an express, but the loco's probably on a running-in turn. There's a colour view of this scene in one of KRP's volumes, showing the whole train. 

 

A 60046.jpg

 

One should always be cautious of assuming twin lamps signify an 'express'. On Sundays, like this, Parlys carried them. 60046 is approaching Retford.

 

A 60102.jpg

 

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY has a pair of twins in tow in an Up express as she (he) passes Eaton Wood.

 

A 60111.jpg

 

As does ENTERPRISE, this time leaving Stoke Tunnel.

 

A 60049 Little Bytham 18.08.62.jpg

 

Even as late as 1962, these steel twins were still in expresses, though probably as strengtheners. 60049 passes Little Bytham on a Down express.

 

A 60055.jpg

 

Some teak twin gangwayed sets lasted years. Here's an ex-GNR pair in an Up express at Grantham.

 

I hope these are useful. 

 

Edited because one picture has ended up at the bottom, but it shows the twin set as second/third cars. 

 

Hi Tony

 

The photo of A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee on just two coaches, was this a normal working or a special train it's similar to seeing un-rebuilt Bulleid Pacific's on two coach trains to Padstow.

 

Regards

 

David

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony

 

The photo of A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee on just two coaches, was this a normal working or a special train it's similar to seeing un-rebuilt Bulleid Pacific's on two coach trains to Padstow.

 

Regards

 

David

David,

 

Having found one or two pictures in the KRP collection of Pacifics on two-coach trains on the main line, with Class 1 lamps, I'd say it was normal - one each way on Sundays? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Mallard60022]

Hi Tony

 

The photo of A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee on just two coaches, was this a normal working or a special train it's similar to seeing un-rebuilt Bulleid Pacific's on two coach trains to Padstow.

 

Regards

 

David

Hello David. This was often a case of the 'train' having dropped off coaches at various places en route to Padstow and there were just the two left for Padstow. A return working, not necessariliy with the Pacific, would probably start at Padstow with a few coaches and add others en route back to Exeter Central. However, I am sure you knew that?

Phil

Edited July 28, 2017 by Mallard60022

[Headstock]

G'Day Gents

 

Sure I've seen pictures of Twins on KX - Cambridge trains.

 

manna (AKA Terry)

 

I believe these were dropped off at Peterborough North and then worked forwards as a Grimsby train.

[Dunsignalling]

   I believe that the SR. tried out a Berkeley stoker in one of Mr. O. Bulleid's 'Spam cans.'.

  That stoker, too, used to suffer from jams.

  The answer, as far as the SR. was concerned,  was found to be in the size of the lumps of coal loaded into the tender - smaller sized lumps didn't jam, but it was labour-intensive to sort the smaller lumps from the larger. 

 Could it be that the British railways were more constrained for space than the American railroads,  and thus the former's curves were of a tighter radius which might have affected the stoker's ability to keep the flow of coal moving? 

      

Had mechanical stokers been adopted in numbers, it would have been worthwhile buying in loco coal that had been graded for size before leaving the colliery, which is presumably what happened in the USA. For the SR, with just one, it wouldn't have been justified.

 

I imagine that mechanical stokers came in more than one size and that fitted to 35005 would have been a "small" to fit the UK loading gauge.

 

John

Edited July 28, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[robertcwp]

Some GN Atlantics on trains including non-gangwayed twins:

 

3297_Trumpington_1930s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

4439_C1_WGC_1936 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

62822_C1_Grantham by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[robertcwp]

Andrew, I'm catching up on this rather late due to being on holiday and having my iPad stolen I have to say that I found vol 1 inspirational despite its problems (of which I was blissfully unaware at the time!). It's encouraged me to build several accurate rakes which I wouldn't have known how to do before. It also introduced me (indirectly) to this thread and Robert's CWNs through follow up research. I'm looking forward to vol 2 particularly as I'm really hoping to find out how Kings Cross suburban worked in the pre mark 1 days. I've seen lots of stuff about mark 1 rakes and quad arts, plus some tantalising glimpses of twin arts, but I really don't understand where all the twin arts worked! Surely the more of this sort of book, the better?!

 

Regards

 

Andy

Extracts from the Winter 1958-9 GN Suburban carriage workings kindly provided by David Percival show articulated twins still on the Dunstable service.

 

1937 Summer GN Suburban workings

 

1937 Summer GN Main Line workings which include Cambridge trains, some of which are non-gangwayed articulated formations.

 

EDIT: forgot to add that as secondary and suburban services across the LNER were so diverse, I think it would need a huge book, or multi-volume work, to really do justice to them.

Edited July 28, 2017 by robertcwp

[31A]

The pair behind 60055 at Grantham must have been a remarkable survivor - I don't think I've ever seen pictures of those painted maroon before!

[thegreenhowards]

Andy,

 

I assume you mean gangwayed twin-arts? That being the case, most of these will be 1935 Gresley steel-sided twins. These were originally built for outer-suburban services from London, mainly on the GN main line as far as Peterborough. They ran in five-sets, that is BTK-TK/Composite/TK/BTK. The Composite was also steel-sided, but a single vehicle. At peak times, sets were often combined. They worked post-War, but often the Composite would be replaced by a Thompson or Mk. 1 type. 

 

Towards the end of their lives, by now in maroon, they could be seen all along the main line and elsewhere. 

 

The following pictures show some in action. 

 

A 60144 Grantham 17.05.59.jpg

 

Behing 60144, leaving Grantham on a Down express. 

 

A 60536 Grantham 21.05.61.jpg

 

As the second/third vehicles behind 60536 at Grantham. The train is lamped-up as an express, but the loco's probably on a running-in turn. There's a colour view of this scene in one of KRP's volumes, showing the whole train. 

 

A 60046.jpg

 

One should always be cautious of assuming twin lamps signify an 'express'. On Sundays, like this, Parlys carried them. 60046 is approaching Retford.

 

A 60102.jpg

 

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY has a pair of twins in tow in an Up express as she (he) passes Eaton Wood.

 

A 60111.jpg

 

As does ENTERPRISE, this time leaving Stoke Tunnel.

 

A 60049 Little Bytham 18.08.62.jpg

 

Even as late as 1962, these steel twins were still in expresses, though probably as strengtheners. 60049 passes Little Bytham on a Down express.

 

A 60055.jpg

 

Some teak twin gangwayed sets lasted years. Here's an ex-GNR pair in an Up express at Grantham.

 

I hope these are useful. 

 

Edited because one picture has ended up at the bottom, but it shows the twin set as second/third cars.

 

Tony, Andrew,

 

Firstly apologies for the double post yesterday - having lost my iPad, I'm getting used to rmweb on a smartphone and it isn't easy with podgy fingers!

 

Many thanks for your help and those wonderful pictures. I was actually thinking of the non corridor twins as Andrew guessed although it was lovely to see the steel corridor pictures as well. I have a set of those for a King's Cross to Peterbrough semi.

 

I've just built a twin First/ third 51' set (d.124/6) and it is these which I'm particularly puzzling about at the moment. I believe that when they were introduced they worked as an 8 set (4 twins) on outer suburbans from Kings Cross formed (from memory) as BT-T, T-F, T-CL, CL-BT. But I've never seen a picture of this formation, or indeed, any of these 51' twins post war. I've seen pictures of the later 55' BT- T d.210 twins post war, but not the shorter ones. While my timeframe majors on late 50s, I stretch it either way for interesting stock, so if I could find any justification for using these in BR days I'd be very happy! My suspicion is that they moved away from the GN when the mark 1s arrived, but I have no evidence for that.

 

Any intelligence very welcome!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Headstock]

Extracts from the Winter 1958-9 GN Suburban carriage workings kindly provided by David Percival show articulated twins still on the Dunstable service.

 

1937 Summer GN Suburban workings

 

1937 Summer GN Main Line workings which include Cambridge trains, some of which are non-gangwayed articulated formations.

 

EDIT: forgot to add that as secondary and suburban services across the LNER were so diverse, I think it would need a huge book, or multi-volume work, to really do justice to them.

 

I was thinking the same thing with regard to modelling the GN and EC mainlines, even the largest layouts barley scratch the surface. The more moderate daily operation (about twenty four to thirty passenger trains in each direction) on the GC around Leicester, could be accommodated on a LSGC sized layout but at the expense of a rather limited good service.

[thegreenhowards]

Extracts from the Winter 1958-9 GN Suburban carriage workings kindly provided by David Percival show articulated twins still on the Dunstable service.

 

1937 Summer GN Suburban workings

 

1937 Summer GN Main Line workings which include Cambridge trains, some of which are non-gangwayed articulated formations.

 

EDIT: forgot to add that as secondary and suburban services across the LNER were so diverse, I think it would need a huge book, or multi-volume work, to really do justice to them.

Robert,

 

Many thanks- our posts crossed. The pictures are interesting but all show the longer twins. D.310 steel version in the first picture and d.210 in the other two. The carriage workings look interesting, I'll have to wait until I get home to cross reference all those carriage numbers. What I really need is an early '50s version!!

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

I was thinking the same thing with regard to modelling the GN and EC mainlines, even the largest layouts barley scratch the surface. The more moderate daily operation (about twenty four to thirty passenger trains in each direction) on the GC around Leicester, could be accommodated on a LSGC sized layout but at the expense of a rather limited good service.

You're spot on there Andrew. I started to work out a schedule for Kings Cross and I'd need a fiddle yard the size of two of my lofts to accomodate all the stock! But we can still try to model some representative trains. So for non corridor stock, I have a quad art, a five car inner suburban mk 1 set, a 6 car outer suburban mk 1/ Thompson set and I'd like to add a representative twin-art set.

 

Andy

Edited July 28, 2017 by thegreenhowards

[thegreenhowards]

The pair behind 60055 at Grantham must have been a remarkable survivor - I don't think I've ever seen pictures of those painted maroon before!

I think several of these sets lasted into the 60s, so maroon must have been reasonably common. They were built in 1935 and 1940(ish) so weren't very old in the early 60s.

[31A]

I think several of these sets lasted into the 60s, so maroon must have been reasonably common. They were built in 1935 and 1940(ish) so weren't very old in the early 60s.

 

 

Er hmm the one in that picture is an ex GN teak pair!

[Headstock]

Tony, Andrew,

 

Firstly apologies for the double post yesterday - having lost my iPad, I'm getting used to rmweb on a smartphone and it isn't easy with podgy fingers!

 

Many thanks for your help and those wonderful pictures. I was actually thinking of the non corridor twins as Andrew guessed although it was lovely to see the steel corridor pictures as well. I have a set of those for a King's Cross to Peterbrough semi.

 

I've just built a twin First/ third 51' set (d.124/6) and it is these which I'm particularly puzzling about at the moment. I believe that when they were introduced they worked as an 8 set (4 twins) on outer suburbans from Kings Cross formed (from memory) as BT-T, T-F, T-CL, CL-BT. But I've never seen a picture of this formation, or indeed, any of these 51' twins post war. I've seen pictures of the later 55' BT- T d.210 twins post war, but not the shorter ones. While my timeframe majors on late 50s, I stretch it either way for interesting stock, so if I could find any justification for using these in BR days I'd be very happy! My suspicion is that they moved away from the GN when the mark 1s arrived, but I have no evidence for that.

 

Any intelligence very welcome!

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Dia 210, now your talking, as thick as flies around the Grantham, Nottingham Derby, Mansfield lines, I have a lovely brass kit of one of these to build. There was one working that brought one of these south of Leicester on a return run to Rugby each day. Another train to build, will it ever end?

[thegreenhowards]

Dia 210, now your talking, as thick as flies around the Grantham, Nottingham Derby, Mansfield lines, I have a lovely brass kit of one of these to build. There was one working that brought one of these south of Leicester on a return run to Rugby each day. Another train to build, will it ever end?

I have a set of Mousa sides, it haven't worked out how I'm going to produce the rest of the coach yet!

[thegreenhowards]

Er hmm the one in that picture is an ex GN teak pair!

Whoops good point! Memo to self - read post and observe photo before replying

 

I had no idea any of those sets lasted so long. Might make an interesting model....

[Headstock]

I have a set of Mousa sides, it haven't worked out how I'm going to produce the rest of the coach yet!

 

There are plenty of options on that one, I would recommend MJT ends, roof and bits, you could pair it with cut down floor pans from the likes of MJT or Kik / Mailcoch. Alternative, a scratch built underframe is basically a flat bit with L and U shaped channel. Currently I'm building the 7.35 am Rugby -  Leicester Central ordinary passenger train, circa 1949, BCK (2-4) / TK (8) ex ECJS / BTK (6) / T (8) ex NE.