Wright writes.....

[2ManySpams]

Maybe Stan meant what if totally accurate wagons derailed and INACCURATE ones ran perfectly?

I'd sort out the running of the accurate ones and sort out the accuracy of the inaccurate ones. But that's my personal choice.

 

I don't get the growing fad on RMweb for people to go off in a strop like Stan if others hold different views and don't agree fully with your own view. Sadly it's becoming more and more facebooky every day.

 

Different folk can have different views. I don't have to agree with oft expressed opinions on this thread about DCC, compensation or the greatness of the ex LNER mainline. Others need not agree that the best lines in the country are the ex LSWR ones in Devon and Cornwall. I won't be loosing sleep either way.

 

As far as I can see the wagon discussion arose from an observation about some show layouts running pristine PO wagons on blue diesel layouts. If folk are running such combinations knowing they are more than likely to be unprototypical then fine, let them get on with it. Move on and find a layout that does float your boat.

 

There are, I'd wager, a great number of folk who know little about what to run with what. If they are seeking this knowledge then, as we're no longer able to visit the 1950s and 60s and view first hand, they must rely on books, photos and instructive posts like the informative one on the previous page that didn't seem to preach or command. Good stuff, carry on.

[Richard E]

Any assistance on train formations, be they passenger, mixed traffic or freight is always welcome. Not all of us are modelling, or going to model, what we can remember. Indeed some are modelling times from before they were born so have to rely on the written word and, in some cases, a decided paucity of photographic records.

[DerekEm8]

This meant that many of the old PO liveries, none of them having had any attention since the 30s and mostly for a lot longer than that, survived in increasingly decrepit and faded forms, with replacement planks, sometimes missing planks, and increasingly filthy.

 

 BR filthy grey, or BR recently outshopped clean grey, but never, NEVER EVER, in clean bright shiny colourful original private owner livery, which had not been seen since the very early 30s!  These wagons worked in the coal trade, and got very dirty very quickly, and then stayed dirty.  A whole train of any sort of mineral wagon in any particular condition was unlikely until the early 60s when the all-conquering march of the 16ton steel mineral was more or less complete, and there were plenty of detail differences in those.

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments, the above BOLD text (mine) implies that NO Private Owner wagons were built /overhauled/repainted in the 1930s - not true.

 

This wrong inference is how duff gen gets passed on to new modellers.

[mullie]

This is after all a hobby and supposed to help us relax from the everyday grinds, if I don't like what someone writes I ignore it and move on.

 

Martyn

[Headstock]

Hi Andrew

 

Many in the 50s would have had planks renewed etc like my self indulgence model. 

 

s017.jpg

 

It should have long been scraped but survived as the depot rubbish wagon. 

 

Oh look one of Mr Thompson's more successful locomotives. Despite using the same internal bits as the LMS, GWR and SR 350s he managed to make the wheelbase different to the other 3 companies

 

Afternoon Clive,

 

I confess to not being familiar with that particular Thompson locomotive. Most interesting and a nice bit of modelling.

[Clive Mortimore]

 

This meant that many of the old PO liveries, none of them having had any attention since the 30s and mostly for a lot longer than that, survived in increasingly decrepit and faded forms, with replacement planks, sometimes missing planks, and increasingly filthy.

 

 BR filthy grey, or BR recently outshopped clean grey, but never, NEVER EVER, in clean bright shiny colourful original private owner livery, which had not been seen since the very early 30s!  These wagons worked in the coal trade, and got very dirty very quickly, and then stayed dirty.  A whole train of any sort of mineral wagon in any particular condition was unlikely until the early 60s when the all-conquering march of the 16ton steel mineral was more or less complete, and there were plenty of detail differences in those.

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments, the above BOLD text (mine) implies that NO Private Owner wagons were built /overhauled/repainted in the 1930s - not true.

 

This wrong inference is how duff gen gets passed on to new modellers.

 

My understanding from conversation with David Larkin (and his written work) is that the government took over the PO wagons for the duration of the war. They were never returned. Photographs from the 1940s suggest quite a few were repainted in a simple livery, grey or bauxite with the owners name and wagon number in the lower left hand corner in 3 inch lettering. When nationalisation of the railways took place ex PO wagons when stopped at a wagon repair shop if not carrying a BR number were allocated the next one from the group of number that repair shop had. The previous owner and wagon number were noted against the new number and the information sent to the RCH. With the closure of the RCH this information disappeared.

 

Those wagons that had survived the war time in their pre-war livery had their iron work painted, sometimes the replacement planks would be painted as well, not often the whole wagon. The wagons with the condensed name and number soon "disappeared" because the wagon repair shop would paint over the name with the standard BR black patch and put the newly allocated number on them. Many in black and white photos look like they have been fully repainted by BR.

 

If it was deemed economic to totally replank a wagon then they may have run as unpainted wood or been fully painted grey. Many were just scraped.

 

See John Hayes book the 4m Coal Wagon, there are some wonderful photos of ex PO wagons in that post war to nationalisation period, including those in wartime liveries.

[Clive Mortimore]

Afternoon Clive,

 

I confess to not being familiar with that particular Thompson locomotive. Most interesting and a nice bit of modelling.

Hi Andrew

 

It is one of four 0-6-0 shunters Class J45, later class DES1 numbers LNER 8000-3, BR 15000-3. Built in 1944 and withdrawn 1967. Internally very similar to the LMS/English Electric locos as they had the same engine, generator and traction motors. Just for some unknown reason they had a 3 inch longer wheelbase.They spent most their working lives at March, moving to Crewe just before they were withdrawn. There was a fifth loco built in 1947 with a Petter engine, class DES2, number 8004, BR number 15004, it also differed in it was started by an external compressed air pump. It lived at Peterborough and lasted until 1962.

 

My model is homemade from plastic card with scratchbuilt brass frames. The only other model of this type of loco I know of is a beautifully built one by Mike Edge.

 

The little Hunslet tram engine is also a product of my workbench and had a Tenshodo motor bogie under it. It is now in bits having been dropped again.

 

Diesel modeling can be a little more than fitting a sound chip.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[DerekEm8]

My understanding from conversation with David Larkin (and his written work) is that the government took over the PO wagons for the duration of the war. They were never returned. Photographs from the 1940s suggest quite a few were repainted in a simple livery, grey or bauxite with the owners name and wagon number in the lower left hand corner in 3 inch lettering. When nationalisation of the railways took place ex PO wagons when stopped at a wagon repair shop if not carrying a BR number were allocated the next one from the group of number that repair shop had. The previous owner and wagon number were noted against the new number and the information sent to the RCH. With the closure of the RCH this information disappeared.

 

Those wagons that had survived the war time in their pre-war livery had their iron work painted, sometimes the replacement planks would be painted as well, not often the whole wagon. The wagons with the condensed name and number soon "disappeared" because the wagon repair shop would paint over the name with the standard BR black patch and put the newly allocated number on them. Many in black and white photos look like they have been fully repainted by BR.

 

If it was deemed economic to totally replank a wagon then they may have run as unpainted wood or been fully painted grey. Many were just scraped.

 

See John Hayes book the 4m Coal Wagon, there are some wonderful photos of ex PO wagons in that post war to nationalisation period, including those in wartime liveries.

Clive,

I am fully aware of what happened from the outbreak of WW2 it is the inference that ALL PO wagons were decrepit and filthy at that date and that NONE had been newly built or repaired/repainted in the 1930s. I'm sure that Chas Roberts,Gloucester, Marcroft etc did not all stop trading in 1930.

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive,

I am fully aware of what happened from the outbreak of WW2 it is the inference that ALL PO wagons were decrepit and filthy at that date and that NONE had been newly built or repaired/repainted in the 1930s. I'm sure that Chas Roberts,Gloucester, Marcroft etc did not all stop trading in 1930.

Hi Derek

 

I agree, up until the government requisitioned them they would have been maintained, including being painted. I wonder if wagons still under order and being built when when the government took over were delivered in their company liveries, I know many lorries that were being built in 1939-40 were delivered new to the army in their intended company colours, some fully lettered to start with before khaki green was the order of the day.

[Tony Wright]

Something at the opposite end of the spectrum from grotty PO wagons arrived today.....................

 

 

 

Graeme King brought this beautiful conversion of a Hornby 2001, made into the second P2, 2002. Perhaps Graeme might like to tell us how it's done. 

 

After a minor adjustment to the pony (because of a derailment), it just romped round. Speaking of derailments, during our running, a coach came off. I investigated and the plastic bogie's axle bearings were so worn as to have the floor pan resting on the wheels' flanges. It's an original Bachmann Mk. 1, and has done many miles (with replacement wheels). Is this a common problem? If so, it's a white metal bogie replacement programme. I'll need a lot!

 

A loco's bogie also came off on a crossing. I've checked the back-to-backs, and they're now adjusted properly. Sorry Graeme. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Tony Wright

[APOLLO]

Thousands and thousands of wagons were made in Wigan by a quite few companies, some of them merging into the central wagon co in the 30's

 

 

 

 

Central wagon went on to be a major wagon and steam locomotive scrapyard, and in the late 60's started to manufacture the new fangled containers.

 

A very interesting book is this. Lots of info re new build wagons, dates, liveries, black & white photos etc. 190 pages hardback, Published by HRMS.

 

 

And a very sad, but again very interesting book is this one

 

 

We built em & wrecked em in Wigan, hence my interest in my local area !!!

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

After a minor adjustment to the pony (because of a derailment), it just romped round. Speaking of derailments, during our running, a coach came off. I investigated and the plastic bogie's axle bearings were so worn as to have the floor pan resting on the wheels' flanges. It's an original Bachmann Mk. 1, and has done many miles (with replacement wheels). Is this a common problem? If so, it's a white metal bogie replacement programme. I'll need a lot!

 

I think all you need is some of these "Top Hat" bearings. I've used a few on worn plastic bogies with success. I heat them up with a soldering iron & "melt" them into position.

 

http://www.petersspares.com/markits-m83-romford-4mm-scale-shouldered-pinpoint-bearings-mppbs-pk50.ir?cName=detailing-markits-markits-detailing-oo

 

Brit15

Edited July 24, 2017 by APOLLO

[65179]

 

I wonder if wagons still under order and being built when when the government took over were delivered in their company liveries, I know many lorries that were being built in 1939-40 were delivered new to the army in their intended company colours, some fully lettered to start with before khaki green was the order of the day.

I can't be sure if it was turned out before war began, but Keith Turton's PO wagons, a fifth collection has a 1939 dated view of a new slope sided mineral in full Denaby 'livery. There's also a 1943 view of a new Tyne Main Coal Co. Ltd 13 tonner in red with black ironwork, but by then with just small lettering.

 

Simon

[Nick Holliday]

According to Len Tavender, the initial Government requisition only covered those wagons in use in September 1939, but wagon production still continued, fulfilling orders, so, over the next six months, further requisition orders had to be made to bring these, possibly 4,000 of them, new wagons into the scheme. In addition, replacement wagons, for those destroyed in air raids, also continued to be built. These were the property of the original owner, and they were painted overall black, with the owner's name in small lettering at bottom left, but given the pooling, it was possible that the true owner never saw his wagon in the flesh, as it would have been sent from the wagon builder straight into service.

Also, it would seem that, for quite a long period, standards of maintenance were generally maintained, and the sad condition of woebegone wagons only came to a fore later in the war, as supplies, resources and morale began to run out.

[APOLLO]

Thanks nick that explains a couple of my Wigan P.O. wagons that are indeed overall black with the colliery name bottom left.

 

Brit15

[gr.king]

Something at the opposite end of the spectrum from grotty PO wagons arrived today.....................

 

Graeme King P2 01.jpg

 

 

After a minor adjustment to the pony (because of a derailment), it just romped round.

 

A loco's bogie also came off on a crossing. I've checked the back-to-backs, and they're now adjusted properly. Sorry Graeme.

I thought it a bit odd that the A2/2 bogie appeared to have derailed on plain straight track - you obviously investigated later and traced it back to the preceding crossing, which makes much more sense.

I'll try to add some basic notes on the P2 conversion tomorrow evening. Thanks for taking and posting the pictures.

Edited July 25, 2017 by gr.king

[The Johnster]

I'd sort out the running of the accurate ones and sort out the accuracy of the inaccurate ones. But that's my personal choice.

 

I don't get the growing fad on RMweb for people to go off in a strop like Stan if others hold different views and don't agree fully with your own view. Sadly it's becoming more and more facebooky every day.

 

Different folk can have different views. I don't have to agree with oft expressed opinions on this thread about DCC, compensation or the greatness of the ex LNER mainline. Others need not agree that the best lines in the country are the ex LSWR ones in Devon and Cornwall. I won't be loosing sleep either way.

 

As far as I can see the wagon discussion arose from an observation about some show layouts running pristine PO wagons on blue diesel layouts. If folk are running such combinations knowing they are more than likely to be unprototypical then fine, let them get on with it. Move on and find a layout that does float your boat.

 

There are, I'd wager, a great number of folk who know little about what to run with what. If they are seeking this knowledge then, as we're no longer able to visit the 1950s and 60s and view first hand, they must rely on books, photos and instructive posts like the informative one on the previous page that didn't seem to preach or command. Good stuff, carry on.

 

As the starter of the pristine PO wagon in BR era debate, I'd point out that I did mention in the post that started it all off that I didn't think you could blame people who made this sort of mistake when there was no reliable and easily accessed source of the correct information that they can refer to; not everyone wants to spend ages researching things, although I rather enjoy it.  Similarly, I am of the view that if you want to run pristine pretty coloured POs with blue diesels despite knowing it never happened, then refer to Rule 1, but don't expect me to like it.  It is a shame if someone's gone off in a strop because of something I started with no intention of upsetting anyone, but I did make the provisos, and have to conclude it's has affair, and loss. 

 

Any views I express are my views unless I state otherwise, my views are liable to change on an ad hoc basis in the light of new information, or because it is Tuesday, nobody has to take any notice of me and arguably shouldn't, and other views and opinions are available, which may be righter or wronger or both than mine.  Or not.  

[The Johnster]

 

This meant that many of the old PO liveries, none of them having had any attention since the 30s and mostly for a lot longer than that, survived in increasingly decrepit and faded forms, with replacement planks, sometimes missing planks, and increasingly filthy.

 

 BR filthy grey, or BR recently outshopped clean grey, but never, NEVER EVER, in clean bright shiny colourful original private owner livery, which had not been seen since the very early 30s!  These wagons worked in the coal trade, and got very dirty very quickly, and then stayed dirty.  A whole train of any sort of mineral wagon in any particular condition was unlikely until the early 60s when the all-conquering march of the 16ton steel mineral was more or less complete, and there were plenty of detail differences in those.

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments, the above BOLD text (mine) implies that NO Private Owner wagons were built /overhauled/repainted in the 1930s - not true.

 

This wrong inference is how duff gen gets passed on to new modellers.

 

 

Fair point.   What I meant was that the last new paintings of wagons in PO liveries were in the 30s, and they'd been pooled shortly afterwards by the RCH and must have got pretty dirty very soon after that due to the type of traffic and that none were being looked after and kept clean as a few had previously been for their advertising value.  So by the 50s it was many years since anyone had seen a clean, freshly painted coal wagon in a PO livery; there were plenty of clean, freshly painted coal wagons in BR unfitted grey livery of which many were XPO.  Perhaps I had not written this clearly enough, and certainly do not wish to pass on a wrong inference.  As I stated, I am not an expert in the field and there are plenty of people more knowledgeable than me on this vast subject, some on this very forum and in this very thread.  My observations were stated as being generalisations for general modelling purposes.

[St Enodoc]

The Wigan Wagon Co! What a wonderful name.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I'm with the minority.

 

I think most of us are.

 

Mike.

[gr.king]

Regarding the P2 model in post No 17969:

 

A fair few people will already know, but for the many who don't, it started life as a Hornby Railroad Cock o' the North. The body was altered by sawing / carving / filing / sanding off the ACFI heater pumps and duct, the brackets that supported the reversing linkage for the valve gear, the lower and front sections of the running plate, the shallow box-like steam passage covers above that front section of running plate, a redundant oil box or two, and the moulded handrails on the cab (and the tender body). The sides of the smokebox clothing plates were then extended downwards (plastic) and a new section of running plate built onto to these (mixture of plastic and brass), including the shallow s-curve under the rear of the smokebox. Trimmed and modified, the front buffer beam and the representation of the frames above it were then reattached to the front of the loco. Before reinstating any details the front end of the loco body was then used as the master for the creation of a silicone rubber mould, allowing new front "half bodies" to be cast in resin for potential future conversions of 2001 to 2002.

 

The chassis was relieved of its original cylinders and moulded Lentz valve gear. New resin cylinders developed from a modified V2 cylinder set were then substituted for the originals, and the Walschaerts valve gear built up by combining parts from a custom etch designed 5 years ago for Thompson Pacifics, plus a few bits and pieces from a comet V2 valve gear etch.

 

Only parts of the green finish on the loco body were re-sprayed, using a carefully mixed near-matching shade of green, fading this out to virtually nothing towards the rear of the boiler were the original finish survived unmarked.

Other colours and touched-in areas were done by brush. A mixture of HMRS transfers and bow pen work provided the necessary lining and insignia. Metal handrails were fitted throughout, along with a new reverse rod from nickel silver strip, shaped to suit.

 

The wheels of the loco were a replacement set of "super-detail" Hornby Cock o' the North wheels, ready lined, making life much easier. The tender wheels (of course) were changed to the correct disc type for 2002. I didn't forget to alter one feature inside the cab, not seen by Mr Wright's camera, the change being to remove the backhead-mounted wheel-reverser for the Lentz valve gear and install an upright reverser on the cab floor. Backhead details, plain on the Railroad models, were picked out in paint too, not quite to the standard of Hornby's best factory printing on the super-detail models, but better than nothing.....

 

A Bugatti nosed version is also slowly nearing completion.

 

I must apologise in advance to interested parties as I'm afraid I cannot currently answer enquiries about parts availability for others wishing to have a go. Nothing is quite ready yet, and it won't be if I keep answering enquiries rather than doing the necessary development work.

Edited July 25, 2017 by gr.king

[LNER4479]

The Wigan Wagon Co! What a wonderful name.

Even better when you refer to it as 'Wigan Wagon Works'. Mr 4479 senior used to take great delight in loading up open wagons with all his plastic wheelsets (that he'd replaced with metal ones). Anyone who enquired was invariably told 'Wheels for Wigan Wagon Works!'

Edited July 26, 2017 by LNER4479

[robertcwp]

The text of the review of the first volume that I wrote for the LNER Society is here.

 

Notwithstanding some imperfections, the first volume was worth having in my view. I believe the print run might have been 1,000 copies, which have taken four years or so to sell it seems.

 

Ian Allan Bookshop at Waterloo had a couple of copies in stock yesterday so if you want to make a gain on eBay now is your chance.

 

Good news that further volumes are still on the way.

The latent auditor in me can now confirm that as of lunchtime today Ian Allan at Waterloo had at least four copies of the book on their shelves.

[Tony Wright]

As the starter of the pristine PO wagon in BR era debate, I'd point out that I did mention in the post that started it all off that I didn't think you could blame people who made this sort of mistake when there was no reliable and easily accessed source of the correct information that they can refer to; not everyone wants to spend ages researching things, although I rather enjoy it.  Similarly, I am of the view that if you want to run pristine pretty coloured POs with blue diesels despite knowing it never happened, then refer to Rule 1, but don't expect me to like it.  It is a shame if someone's gone off in a strop because of something I started with no intention of upsetting anyone, but I did make the provisos, and have to conclude it's has affair, and loss. 

 

Any views I express are my views unless I state otherwise, my views are liable to change on an ad hoc basis in the light of new information, or because it is Tuesday, nobody has to take any notice of me and arguably shouldn't, and other views and opinions are available, which may be righter or wronger or both than mine.  Or not.  

I don't think you should feel any responsibility for someone going off in a strop. I think it was me who was principally 'at fault' for that; and it took a much brighter person than I'll ever be to explain the 'mix up'. It's very easy to appear 'blind' when the meaning of a message is so ambiguous. Still, I don't think anyone on here attempts to dictate what's right or wrong, and, if they do, they're firmly (as they should be) put in their place! 

 

Returning to the theme of the 'ridiculous' scenario of bright and shiny (Clearing House) PO wagons being towed by a loco from 50 or 60 years later in time, then if it pleases him or her who owns such a combination who am I (we?) to judge? My point, I suppose, was that this was at an exhibition where (in my opinion) there is a greater responsibility on the part of layout owners (particularly prototype-based layouts) to make the scene as accurate as possible. However, each to their own. 

 

The following pictures show the odd snippets of PO wagons in service on BR in the mid-'50s. They also show some brand new 16T mineral wagons as well, to illustrate that very clean wagons could be seen. I'll leave those with the necessary expertise to describe what's on show (the pictures are really loco portraits, but the wagons are apparent. They're from the KRP collection, so, please, observe copyright). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a few PO wagons and a few pre-Nationalisation wagons which I run on the MR/M&GNR bit of my trainset. I make no apologies for the disparity in time, even though it might offend some purists. The LMS wagons were scratch-built by Norman Turner and are too beautiful not to use. The coke wagon (which could be modified RTR or a kit) was distressed/weathered to perfection by Rob Davey. 

 

 

One wagon which I cherish is this one, which the late Dave Shakespeare produced (from an RTR base). The top rails have lifted to the left, but it doesn't matter. It's so wonderfully-decrepit. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Compound2632]

PO wagons 01.jpg

 

I have a few PO wagons and a few pre-Nationalisation wagons which I run on the MR/M&GNR bit of my trainset. I make no apologies for the disparity in time, even though it might offend some purists. The LMS wagons were scratch-built by Norman Turner and are too beautiful not to use. The coke wagon (which could be modified RTR or a kit) was distressed/weathered to perfection by Rob Davey. 

 

 

The coke wagon is the Slater's kit - Mr Turner looks to have done a superb job on that, correcting the inbuilt error in the relationship between the solebar and headstock. I spy another one just out of shot on the left. The right hand LMS 5-plank wagon is ex-LNWR, identifiably from the Ratio kit. It's good to see an LMS-period goods train with a good mix of pre-grouping types - like wooden-bodied POs in the 50s, there would be plenty of them around.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by Compound2632