Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Having spent an hour cleaning the wheels on a B17 loco caused me to wonder about the chore. On a big system like LB or Retford with masses of locos and rolling stock, this could become a never ending pastime! Just keeping the track clean would be a major undertaking. Is there any tips please on either task which obviously works on both layouts as the running is first class. (Presumably metal wheels on all stock is a prime requirement)  Please enlighten me as to how it is done.

 

Martin Long

Martin,

 

I can only speak for 4mm scale, but my 'solutions' for keeping track clean are really very simple. 

 

Briefly, they comprise.............

 

1. Run the railway very regularly - at least two or three times a week for an hour or so, using every road (apart from disused sidings). 

 

2. Check the tyres on rolling stock wheels at regular times. In a way, this is more important than checking locos' wheels - they'll let you know if they're dirty. The time you know there's too much gunge on a tyre, the vehicle will derail or wobble along the track. Muck on the tyre will result in its being spread over the running rails. 

 

 

3. I don't know whether this device is available in other gauges, but it's an absolute Godsend for good running. It's made by Noch, and is available through Gaugemaster. It was brought to my attention by a dear friend, who gave me several (horse-trading - I numbered some of his locos); thanks Keith. It just clips on to the axle of a four-wheeled van/wagon (it suits EM and P4 as well), and gravity holds it against the rails as it runs. It's a sort of felt pad, but it's used dry - there's no need to apply track-cleaning fluid of any kind. All it does is just remove any dust off the rails as the train runs. Little Bytham is basically four circuits, so at least one train running on each circuit has a vehicle with one of these gadgets attached. Both pick-ups have one as well, for siding-cleaning. 

 

4. Though Peco track rubbers are ubiquitous, in my experience they have a tendency to crumble in use, leaving black bits all over the place. Should a section of rail need cleaning (very rare), then I use a OO Gauge Association track rubber, which doesn't crumble. 

 

5. Avoid having carpets in the railway room. Better still, build your railway outside the house in a purpose-built (very secure) room for itself. That way, dust is minimised and so is the need for track-cleaning. Garages and lofts are all right, provided they're very well insulated and concrete garage floors are sealed. 

 

6. Make sure any loco has adequate pick-ups and they're adjusted properly. Again, I don't know about other gauges too much, but many of the modern RTR locos' pick-ups are hopeless in my experience, with feeble bits of phosphor bronze rendered ineffective by so much sideways slop in the driving axles, needed to get the locos round train set curves. 

 

7. I know this might sound politically-correct, but don't smoke (don't smoke, anyway, unless you have a desire to shorten your life). I know this might sound daft, but one railway I took pictures of (a few years ago) suffered poor running as I was arranging trains. I ran my fingers over the rails and they were covered in a brown 'slime'. The owner was a chain smoker (using one fag butt to light his next one) and (I think it must have been tobacco tar) the brown stuff was everywhere in his home, not just on his rails.

 

8. Are there any other tips out there?

 

I hope this helps.  

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Did the W1 ever receive AWS?

Robert,

 

I hope so, it's on the model I made. 

 

Fig. 138 in the RCTS green book, Part 6C. 

[Tony Wright]

I guess it depends on what you find exciting and interesting.

 

If it's speed, colour and efficiency (and electric traction), then yes it is.

 

G.

Grahame,

 

I take your point, and, as always, it's a personal view. 

 

It's just that the Peterborough North Station in the first picture (if it were a weekend, after school or a holiday) would be packed with trainspotters, all interested (indeed obsessed!) with what they were writing the numbers of. No schoolboys (or girls) find Peterborough Station of the slightest interest today (or if they do, they're hiding).

 

I, too, like speed (A4s were fast), colour (provided it's used sensitively, and not daubed on in the manner which young children might apply - as on many of today's locos and stock) and efficiency (I loved the Woodhead electrics).

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Barry Ten]

I agree with Tony with regard to the Noch cleaners. I use them on both my layouts, as they're available in N as well and clip nicely under an American box car or similar. Any stretch of track that sees regular use from a train so equipped rarely if ever needs cleaning, in my experience.

 

Alastair

[APOLLO]

I defy anyone to claim that the 'modern' railway is as interesting as it was when I was a trainspotter. 

 

Definitely not as interesting but certainly faster, efficient & more user friendly (especially train frequency). 

 

Yesterday we had a great day out in Edinburgh. With our Family & Friends railcard 3 adults & 2 children Wigan to Edinburgh advance return was £79 - a bargain. Outward was the 07.38 Pendolino arriving at 10.17. Shap & Beattock ? - just nice scenery whizzing by these days, no thrill of the climb. Straight off the train and up to the Royal Mile. Kids wanted to climb Arthurs Seat, I had a pint of Heavy !!. What a wonderful city Edinburgh is, not been there since 1985 & it's hardly changed.

 

A nice Thai meal, then onto the 20.14 8 car Trans Pennine EMU home to Wigan - almost as fast as the Pendolino, We arrived more or less on time at 11pm, Home & in bed by midnight.

 

A day out that was not really possible in the days of steam.

 

Brit15

Edited July 22, 2017 by APOLLO

[Buhar]

Having spent an hour cleaning the wheels on a B17 loco caused me to wonder about the chore. On a big system like LB or Retford with masses of locos and rolling stock, this could become a never ending pastime! Just keeping the track clean would be a major undertaking. Is there any tips please on either task which obviously works on both layouts as the running is first class. (Presumably metal wheels on all stock is a prime requirement)  Please enlighten me as to how it is done.

 

Martin Long

Hi Martin,

 

It's not very clear as it wasn't the subject of the video but have a look at this from Liverpool Lime Street (7:30 in)

 

A query about the activity was answered as follows:-

 

No, its known as our "Dynamic Wheel Cleaner".

 

Thin strip of tissue - single ply of cheapest is best.

Spray with Iso-Propyl Alcohol, keep it damp.

 

Every train arriving at the sector plate from the station runs over this.

Keeps the wheels clean, and we never have to clean the track.

We were finding that cleaning the track before a show caused damage.

As we never clean it between shows, and it runs without problems, why run the risk of more damage by cleaning it then?

 

The Station Pilot still gets very dirty, as it never leaves the station (except to have its wheels cleaned).

 

For a "Deep Clean" of the stock we spread out a full sheet of kitchen roll over a length of track, soak it in IPA and handball the stock, item by item, over it.

 

Steve.

[mullie]

Hi Martin,

 

It's not very clear as it wasn't the subject of the video but have a look at this from Liverpool Lime Street (7:30 in)

 

A query about the activity was answered as follows:-

I use this on my garage based layout and it really helps - this is where I got the idea.

 

I do take my layout apart every 6-8 weeks, clean the track with a track rubber as well, I then hoover it off to pick up any debris. I need good slow speed running with short wheelbase locos so this process really helps. The garage is generally clean and is integral to the house. I only clean wheels once or twice a year but the layout can at times go weeks without being run properly if I'm busy with work and family.

[Willie Whizz]

The text of the review of the first volume that I wrote for the LNER Society is here.

 

Notwithstanding some imperfections, the first volume was worth having in my view. I believe the print run might have been 1,000 copies, which have taken four years or so to sell it seems.

 

Ian Allan Bookshop at Waterloo had a couple of copies in stock yesterday so if you want to make a gain on eBay now is your chance.

 

Good news that further volumes are still on the way.

 

I agree; in fact I was actually able to point out one of the minor 'imperfections' to Mr Banks via his website, supported by evidence, and - credit to him - he put-up a supplementary note on there; as indeed he has with a few other points that have emerged.  If there was ever a 'second edition', hopefully these would be remedied.

 

During our exchanges he did indicate there was indeed a 'larger project', upon which he had been working for many years, to do with the GC London Extension, though I can say no more than that.  I suspect part of the problem in that - and with the 'Train Formations' project - is, as it must be for many authors on 'historical' projects - the constant slow drip of emerging new information, which means each time the author thinks he/she's getting close to completion, a whole new area of research opens-up and around they go again.

 

My more general fear with anyone in that position is that would-be authors who actually saw what they're writing about are getting older, and if they don't 'get it out and off their chest' in the next few years they never will, and all that accumulated knowledge will then probably be lost unless they've made arrangements for it to be passed on.  Time perhaps to say, like the Duke of Wellington:  "Publish and be damned!"

[Clive Mortimore]

Martin,

 

I can only speak for 4mm scale, but my 'solutions' for keeping track clean are really very simple. 

 

Briefly, they comprise.............

 

1. Run the railway very regularly - at least two or three times a week for an hour or so, using every road (apart from disused sidings). 

 

2. Check the tyres on rolling stock wheels at regular times. In a way, this is more important than checking locos' wheels - they'll let you know if they're dirty. The time you know there's too much gunge on a tyre, the vehicle will derail or wobble along the track. Muck on the tyre will result in its being spread over the running rails. 

 

Noch axle pad.jpg

 

3. I don't know whether this device is available in other gauges, but it's an absolute Godsend for good running. It's made by Noch, and is available through Gaugemaster. It was brought to my attention by a dear friend, who gave me several (horse-trading - I numbered some of his locos); thanks Keith. It just clips on to the axle of a four-wheeled van/wagon (it suits EM and P4 as well), and gravity holds it against the rails as it runs. It's a sort of felt pad, but it's used dry - there's no need to apply track-cleaning fluid of any kind. All it does is just remove any dust off the rails as the train runs. Little Bytham is basically four circuits, so at least one train running on each circuit has a vehicle with one of these gadgets attached. Both pick-ups have one as well, for siding-cleaning. 

 

4. Though Peco track rubbers are ubiquitous, in my experience they have a tendency to crumble in use, leaving black bits all over the place. Should a section of rail need cleaning (very rare), then I use a OO Gauge Association track rubber, which doesn't crumble. 

 

5. Avoid having carpets in the railway room. Better still, build your railway outside the house in a purpose-built (very secure) room for itself. That way, dust is minimised and so is the need for track-cleaning. Garages and lofts are all right, provided they're very well insulated and concrete garage floors are sealed. 

 

6. Make sure any loco has adequate pick-ups and they're adjusted properly. Again, I don't know about other gauges too much, but many of the modern RTR locos' pick-ups are hopeless in my experience, with feeble bits of phosphor bronze rendered ineffective by so much sideways slop in the driving axles, needed to get the locos round train set curves. 

 

7. I know this might sound politically-correct, but don't smoke (don't smoke, anyway, unless you have a desire to shorten your life). I know this might sound daft, but one railway I took pictures of (a few years ago) suffered poor running as I was arranging trains. I ran my fingers over the rails and they were covered in a brown 'slime'. The owner was a chain smoker (using one fag butt to light his next one) and (I think it must have been tobacco tar) the brown stuff was everywhere in his home, not just on his rails.

 

8. Are there any other tips out there?

 

I hope this helps.  

Hi Tony

 

Very good advice. Your advice about running a layout regularly is very sound.  I found with exhibition layouts if stored between shows, no matter how well the track was cleaned they always needed cleaning again during the show. Before dismantling Sheffield Exchange  I would run it once or twice a week, very rarely did it need a good clean during a session. I would clean it now and then but not because it needed it but because I felt it must be due a clean.  Loco wheels also stay cleaner if used regularly. And the number of fellow modellers who don't clean their rolling stock wheels is amazing. They pick up dirt, this is made worse once they have a little muck on them as they then start to arc when bouncing on the dirt and this causes more muck on the wheels and track. The number of second hand coaches and wagons I have brought with what looks like  traction tyre on all the wheels.

 

I won't mention helpful mates who have cleaned off traction tyres from the wheels of my diesels.

[Headstock]

I agree; in fact I was actually able to point out one of the minor 'imperfections' to Mr Banks via his website, supported by evidence, and - credit to him - he put-up a supplementary note on there; as indeed he has with a few other points that have emerged.  If there was ever a 'second edition', hopefully these would be remedied.

 

During our exchanges he did indicate there was indeed a 'larger project', upon which he had been working for many years, to do with the GC London Extension, though I can say no more than that.  I suspect part of the problem in that - and with the 'Train Formations' project - is, as it must be for many authors on 'historical' projects - the constant slow drip of emerging new information, which means each time the author thinks he/she's getting close to completion, a whole new area of research opens-up and around they go again.

 

My more general fear with anyone in that position is that would-be authors who actually saw what they're writing about are getting older, and if they don't 'get it out and off their chest' in the next few years they never will, and all that accumulated knowledge will then probably be lost unless they've made arrangements for it to be passed on.  Time perhaps to say, like the Duke of Wellington:  "Publish and be damned!"

 

From a modelling perspective and contributor to book one, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth the effort, I certainly don't detect a radical improvement in the representations of trains on model railways due to it's publication. If anything it's probably got worse. Looking through my own collection of material on the GC's London extension (a cupboards worth), it is ultimately bound for the scrap pile. Model railways can turn that into a living, breathing entity. Off course that takes time, and only a small proportion reaches fruition, not through indolence but a considerable amount of hard work. Many will celebrate or nick pick such a publication but how many will act on the information contained within? Such information should be recorded and preserved but within the context of railway modelling, of what use is it if we shall never see it brought to life?

[The Johnster]

Martin,

 

I can only speak for 4mm scale, but my 'solutions' for keeping track clean are really very simple. 

 

Briefly, they comprise.............

 

1. Run the railway very regularly - at least two or three times a week for an hour or so, using every road (apart from disused sidings). 

 

2. Check the tyres on rolling stock wheels at regular times. In a way, this is more important than checking locos' wheels - they'll let you know if they're dirty. The time you know there's too much gunge on a tyre, the vehicle will derail or wobble along the track. Muck on the tyre will result in its being spread over the running rails. 

 

Noch axle pad.jpg

 

3. I don't know whether this device is available in other gauges, but it's an absolute Godsend for good running. It's made by Noch, and is available through Gaugemaster. It was brought to my attention by a dear friend, who gave me several (horse-trading - I numbered some of his locos); thanks Keith. It just clips on to the axle of a four-wheeled van/wagon (it suits EM and P4 as well), and gravity holds it against the rails as it runs. It's a sort of felt pad, but it's used dry - there's no need to apply track-cleaning fluid of any kind. All it does is just remove any dust off the rails as the train runs. Little Bytham is basically four circuits, so at least one train running on each circuit has a vehicle with one of these gadgets attached. Both pick-ups have one as well, for siding-cleaning. 

 

4. Though Peco track rubbers are ubiquitous, in my experience they have a tendency to crumble in use, leaving black bits all over the place. Should a section of rail need cleaning (very rare), then I use a OO Gauge Association track rubber, which doesn't crumble. 

 

5. Avoid having carpets in the railway room. Better still, build your railway outside the house in a purpose-built (very secure) room for itself. That way, dust is minimised and so is the need for track-cleaning. Garages and lofts are all right, provided they're very well insulated and concrete garage floors are sealed. 

 

6. Make sure any loco has adequate pick-ups and they're adjusted properly. Again, I don't know about other gauges too much, but many of the modern RTR locos' pick-ups are hopeless in my experience, with feeble bits of phosphor bronze rendered ineffective by so much sideways slop in the driving axles, needed to get the locos round train set curves. 

 

7. I know this might sound politically-correct, but don't smoke (don't smoke, anyway, unless you have a desire to shorten your life). I know this might sound daft, but one railway I took pictures of (a few years ago) suffered poor running as I was arranging trains. I ran my fingers over the rails and they were covered in a brown 'slime'. The owner was a chain smoker (using one fag butt to light his next one) and (I think it must have been tobacco tar) the brown stuff was everywhere in his home, not just on his rails.

 

8. Are there any other tips out there?

 

I hope this helps.  

 

Good advice here Tony.  I rarely find it necessary to clean track, as I run my railway most days, despite the only place I can put it in my flat being a carpeted bederoom...  Mine is a small blt and not much speed is possible, so it is the frequent running that makes the difference, not the speed of it, nor, I venture, the intensity of the service; I imagine less stock passes over most of my track in a given time than on your busy main line with it's long and frequent trains, but I have very little need, as I say, to clean track.  When I do, I use a Peco rubber but I don't like it for the reasons you state and that I think it is too abrasive on rail surfaces.  My opinion, though it is subjective and not empirically proven, is that frequent running is generally a good thing for keeping tyres and pickups in good order and for lubrication as well.

 

The Noch device looks like a clever little thing, though, and I may invest in one simply to see how much it picks up, and I might be able to abandon the Peco rubber..

 

What I do find necessary is frequent cleaning of tyres, backs, and pickups; how frequent depends on the individual loco.  You make a good point about rtr pickups, but they can be tweaked and persuaded to be reliable, and I need sideplay for no.4 curves in some fiddle yard roads.  Method is to drop the keeper plate, drop the wheels, squirt them with Maplin's spray electronic contact cleaner, wet a cotton bud with the Maplin's so that cotton fibres don't get everywhere, use the bud to clean off the tyres, backs, and pickups where they bear on the backs, gaze in amazement at how much crud comes off (I go through a bud for each wheelset) and put everything back.  My Baccys need this about once every 3 weeks, a Hornby 42xx is broadly similar but needs more attention to pickups (sideplay), and a Hornby (current chassis design) 2721 needs it about every week.  

 

Maplin's spray is used for wagon/coach wheels and plastic ones seem harder to get the crud off of.

 

It is important for all sorts of reasons to ensure that track is laid level and the joins are smooth, with vertical transition curves if there are gradients, and one of the reasons for this is that, if there are places at which pickup wheels leave the rail head, then even if running is not compromised an arcing will occur which will build up carbon deposits on the rail head at that point, and since locos with different wheelbases will affect the track in this way at slightly different places, it is easy to end up with a short stretch were there are several of these little carbon lumps on the rail, and running will be affected.  I am sure I am preaching to the choir, but non choristers may read this and find it useful.  Carbon build up can occur on turnouts at the point (sorry) that the blades contact the stock rails; I use insulfrog turnouts and have to make certain these are cleaned regularly.  I do not bond the switch rails or blades as I want to be aware of this build up before it prevents the blades closing on the stock rail properly at all and starts causing derailments.

 

I have a number of cheap pound shop kiddies paintbrushes (just the thing for painting cheap pound shop kiddies) bought as a set for, um, a pound; these are horrible stiff plastic bristle things useless for painting, but very useful indeed for getting into flangeways and sweeping out bits of ballast or other foreign matter that's got in there.  A going over with a vacuum cleaner after sorts out the surplus; I empty the dust compartment before doing this so that it is easy to retrieve the various bits, which come in handy for odd bits of scenic work or piles of spent ballast awaiting collection.

 

I do not tolerate smoking in the railway room or anywhere indoors in my flat; smokers are welcome to use the patio if they stub out and drop ash in the fish food container weighted with stones to stop it blowing away provided.

Edited July 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[micklner]

Good advice here Tony.  I rarely find it necessary to clean track, as I run my railway most days, despite the only place I can put it in my flat being a carpeted bederoom...  Mine is a small blt and not much speed is possible, so it is the frequent running that makes the difference, not the speed of it, nor, I venture, the intensity of the service; I imagine less stock passes over most of my track in a given time than on your busy main line with it's long and frequent trains, but I have very little need, as I say, to clean track.  When I do, I use a Peco rubber but I don't like it for the reasons you state and that I think it is too abrasive on rail surfaces.  My opinion, though it is subjective and not empirically proven, is that frequent running is generally a good thing for keeping tyres and pickups in good order and for lubrication as well.

 

The Noch device looks like a clever little thing, though, and I may invest in one simply to see how much it picks up, and I might be able to abandon the Peco rubber..

 

What I do find necessary is frequent cleaning of tyres, backs, and pickups; how frequent depends on the individual loco.  You make a good point about rtr pickups, but they can be tweaked and persuaded to be reliable, and I need sideplay for no.4 curves in some fiddle yard roads.  Method is to drop the keeper plate, drop the wheels, squirt them with Maplin's spray electronic contact cleaner, wet a cotton bud with the Maplin's so that cotton fibres don't get everywhere, use the bud to clean off the tyres, backs, and pickups where they bear on the backs, gaze in amazement at how much crud comes off (I go through a bud for each wheelset) and put everything back.  My Baccys need this about once every 3 weeks, a Hornby 42xx is broadly similar but needs more attention to pickups (sideplay), and a Hornby (current chassis design) 2721 needs it about every week.  

 

Maplin's spray is used for wagon/coach wheels and plastic ones seem harder to get the crud off of.

 

It is important for all sorts of reasons to ensure that track is laid level and the joins are smooth, with vertical transition curves if there are gradients, and one of the reasons for this is that, if there are places at which pickup wheels leave the rail head, then even if running is not compromised an arcing will occur which will build up carbon deposits on the rail head at that point, and since locos with different wheelbases will affect the track in this way at slightly different places, it is easy to end up with a short stretch were there are several of these little carbon lumps on the rail, and running will be affected.  I am sure I am preaching to the choir, but non choristers may read this and find it useful.  Carbon build up can occur on turnouts at the point (sorry) that the blades contact the stock rails; I use insulfrog turnouts and have to make certain these are cleaned regularly.  I do not bond the switch rails or blades as I want to be aware of this build up before it prevents the blades closing on the stock rail properly at all and starts causing derailments.

 

I have a number of cheap pound shop kiddies paintbrushes (just the thing for painting cheap pound shop kiddies) bought as a set for, um, a pound; these are horrible stiff plastic bristle things useless for painting, but very useful indeed for getting into flangeways and sweeping out bits of ballast or other foreign matter that's got in there.  A going over with a vacuum cleaner after sorts out the surplus; I empty the dust compartment before doing this so that it is easy to retrieve the various bits, which come in handy for odd bits of scenic work or piles of spent ballast awaiting collection.

 

I do not tolerate smoking in the railway room or anywhere indoors in my flat; smokers are welcome to use the patio if they stub out and drop ash in the fish food container weighted with stones to stop it blowing away provided.

 

Dump the plastic wheels = horrid

[Jon4470]

From a modelling perspective and contributor to book one, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth the effort, I certainly don't detect a radical improvement in the representations of trains on model railways due to it's publication. If anything it's probably got worse. Looking through my own collection of material on the GC's London extension (a cupboards worth), it is ultimately bound for the scrap pile. Model railways can turn that into a living, breathing entity. Off course that takes time, and only a small proportion reaches fruition, not through indolence but a considerable amount of hard work. Many will celebrate or nick pick such a publication but how many will act on the information contained within? Such information should be recorded and preserved but within the context of railway modelling, of what use is it if we shall never see it brought to life?

Are books like this worth the effort? My answer is an emphatic yes!

I find these types of book invaluable because,not only do they give answers about what happened, they explain why things were done. An understanding of the background to a subject really helps me (in work as well in hobby).

 

Several reference books (including Vol 1) , some helpful advice on rmweb and some further research have enabled me to produce a list of trains ( loco plus coaches) that I want to model. As a result they will be (at the least) a realistic representation of a piece of 1938 LNER - possibly even totally accurate in some cases!

 

Jon

[ScRSG]

Re track cleaning, just a wee plug for David Franks (Lanarkshire Model Supplies) track cleaner fitted in an ex-LMS brake van. We use this on our "Alloa" layout at exhibitions and have found that we get perfect running over a two day show without having to clean the track in that time. A similar device to the Noch one mentioned above but the cloth is fitted to a heavy roller.

 

Chas

[Daddyman]

8. Are there any other tips out there?  

Yes, but they're heretical: I never clean track!

 

As I don't have a layout all my locos run on my dad's, which I visit every 3 months or so. He uses the layout very little between my visits, and it lives in a loft. I remember pickup and track-cleaning being a real problem when I was a child, but since the advent of "super-detail" models such as the Hornby A3s and A4s (2005?), and can motors in diesels, I've never needed to clean the track. I've even removed the pickups from the tenders of the aforementioned Hornby locos. I also run scratch- and kit-built locos on the layout, with no problems. I demand that all of my locos - but especially my own creations - should be able to crawl round the track at walking pace, which they do. (I should perhaps say, though I don't know if it makes a difference, that all the turnouts are scratchbuilt.) 

 

What am I doing wrong?! 

[robertcwp]

From a modelling perspective and contributor to book one, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth the effort, I certainly don't detect a radical improvement in the representations of trains on model railways due to it's publication. If anything it's probably got worse. Looking through my own collection of material on the GC's London extension (a cupboards worth), it is ultimately bound for the scrap pile. Model railways can turn that into a living, breathing entity. Off course that takes time, and only a small proportion reaches fruition, not through indolence but a considerable amount of hard work. Many will celebrate or nick pick such a publication but how many will act on the information contained within? Such information should be recorded and preserved but within the context of railway modelling, of what use is it if we shall never see it brought to life?

I hope your GC material doesn't end up in the bin. If that really is where it is headed, I could provide the bin (ie back of my car)!

 

I have detected people at least making the effort to represent trains more accurately over the past 10 years since I set up my BRCoachingStock group and began making carriage working PDFs and other information freely available. I have now published over 400 carriage working books in PDF form via that group. Of course, the carriage workings are only one piece of the jigsaw puzzle and lots more information is needed in order to model trains accurately.

 

However, I have seen exhibition layouts where the operators could not even marshal a 4 Cep correctly, never mind a loco-hauled train, plus numerous diesel era trains with vacuum-braked locos on air-braked stock.

 

Although I have been asked several times, I don't think I could ever write a book about train workings and formations. I would not know where to start. I also think it's very difficult to distill things down into what most readers would find manageable. I had a go at writing a few magazine articles but found it very time consuming and difficult to get things right. I thought some of them came out rather basic but people commented that they were too technical and over their heads!  The one I did on the GC for BRM (at the then-editor's request) was probably the last for any of the mainstream magazines.

 

I would not want to nitpick over the Banks/Carter book but it was let down a little bit by some mistakes in carriage descriptions in captions where the type is obvious from the image and by its partial coverage of the subject, which as the authors acknowledged was largely due to having to work with the available information, which is somewhat patchy. (The ex-GER lines are a particular problem for information I believe.)  It will be interesting to see what the authors can fit into the second volume on secondary, branch and non-passenger workings as that subject is even more vast and complicated than the principal services.

 

I liked the approach Clive Carter used many years ago in his book on LMS/LMR train formations where he picked particular trains and showed how they evolved over time. It's something I have done with several trains, including the Capitals Limited and Elizabethan back in 2013. I believe Clive Carter also wrote an LNER volume but the publishers dropped it as the LMS/LMR one didn't sell very well.

[Richard E]

Grahame,

 

I take your point, and, as always, it's a personal view. 

 

It's just that the Peterborough North Station in the first picture (if it were a weekend, after school or a holiday) would be packed with trainspotters, all interested (indeed obsessed!) with what they were writing the numbers of. No schoolboys (or girls) find Peterborough Station of the slightest interest today (or if they do, they're hiding).

 

I, too, like speed (A4s were fast), colour (provided it's used sensitively, and not daubed on in the manner which young children might apply - as on many of today's locos and stock) and efficiency (I loved the Woodhead electrics).

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

The 'gricers' I do see are mostly in their late 50's through to early 70's. That is at Peterborough and Doncaster. Rarely see anyone at York.

 

Their 'tools' of their trade these days are a dictaphone and digital camera with the odd one or two using a notebook.

[The Johnster]

Agreed about train formations at shows; there's Rule 1, there's against railway procedure and Rule Book, and there's physically impossible, but you can't blame people who don't know better if the resources are not readily available for them to find out.  Maybe a few online basic tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea, pointing out that 'the rules' change over period.  Trouble is, this isn't really the place for them, as I would suggest that, if you are using this forum, you are probably already aware of 'the rules' for your layout's era and background geography.  Common mistakes on pre-mid 80s exhibition layouts include:-

 

. Unfitted freight stock, including vacuum stock behind air brake only locos and vice versa, without brake vans

. Private owner mineral wagons with BR steam and even blue diesel locos

. Passenger trains with no guard's compartment

. Passenger trains of air braked, electrically heated, and/or air conditioned stock behind steam locos or diesels never fitted with air brakes and/or eth/airco equipment

. Dmus with twin marker red tail lamps lit 

. Diesel or Electric locos hauling trains with their twin marker red tail lamps lit

. Private owner industrial locos on BR track, sometimes hauling branch passenger trains.  If you're not modelling specific locations in the North East of England where this was permitted, keep 'em on company premises or exchange sidings!

. Private owner industrial locos hauling passenger trains.  Yes, I know some places operated 'paddy trains', but industrial sidings with a 'proper' station, booking hall, station sign, and all, sometimes on otherwise very good shunting problem layouts, are far too common.  The operating relationship between BR (previous and subsequent main line companies are available) and industrial networks is in general poorly understood, and indeed varied according to the actual arrangements between the railway and the industrial concern, um, concerned, but usual practice was that paddy trains' passengers got on or off from the ground, or a basic wooden platform at best.

 

I am less qualified to comment about what I regard as 'modern image' layouts, post mid 80s, say, as prototype practice has changed since my time and I haven't kept up, but I would have thought that the opportunities for running trains with prototypically incompatible couplers is much enhanced; fortunately, perhaps, the modern prevalence of multiple unit 'set' trains and block freight workings mitigates agin it.

 

I have not addressed livery or period anomalies, and concede that some people are happy to tolerate these under the authority of Rule 1.  I am not perfect in this respect myself, specifying a wide enough period (1948-60) to run a 2721 in 1942-7 austerity GWR black grotesque withdrawn in 1950 alongside a 56xx with a ferret and dartboard in lined post 1956 WR green livery and with some lined maroon stock, but I try to keep things compatible within trains.  My excuse, justified under Rule 1, is that part of the layout's purpose is to represent as many, and hopefully ultimately all, of the liveries from that very fluid period, and I can live with the anomalies; at least I am aware that they are anomalies!  1955 Rule Book is followed as far as possible.

 

What I am talking about here are fairly seriously modelled exhibition layouts, not 'train set' types which I believe have a place at public shows as a valid example of what can be achieved in that  genre; sometimes such layouts show a better awareness of actual operating practice than some finer scale efforts!  Of course, some folks' main interest is in modelling buildings, or scenery, or bridges, and they regard the trains as secondary to, and the background or setting for, this, but that just makes sloppy train formations and poor operating practice more irritating, and one doesn't want to challenge people who have done their best, whose buildings and scenery are better than one's, and who will accuse one of being a rivet counter, which one definitely isn't.

 

Don't get me started on whizz whizz running, stabbed rat starts, and brick wall stops on otherwise perfectly presented layouts...

Edited July 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[Headstock]

I hope your GC material doesn't end up in the bin. If that really is where it is headed, I could provide the bin (ie back of my car)!

 

I have detected people at least making the effort to represent trains more accurately over the past 10 years since I set up my BRCoachingStock group and began making carriage working PDFs and other information freely available. I have now published over 400 carriage working books in PDF form via that group. Of course, the carriage workings are only one piece of the jigsaw puzzle and lots more information is needed in order to model trains accurately.

 

However, I have seen exhibition layouts where the operators could not even marshal a 4 Cep correctly, never mind a loco-hauled train, plus numerous diesel era trains with vacuum-braked locos on air-braked stock.

 

Although I have been asked several times, I don't think I could ever write a book about train workings and formations. I would not know where to start. I also think it's very difficult to distill things down into what most readers would find manageable. I had a go at writing a few magazine articles but found it very time consuming and difficult to get things right. I thought some of them came out rather basic but people commented that they were too technical and over their heads!  The one I did on the GC for BRM (at the then-editor's request) was probably the last for any of the mainstream magazines.

 

I would not want to nitpick over the Banks/Carter book but it was let down a little bit by some mistakes in carriage descriptions in captions where the type is obvious from the image and by its partial coverage of the subject, which as the authors acknowledged was largely due to having to work with the available information, which is somewhat patchy. (The ex-GER lines are a particular problem for information I believe.)  It will be interesting to see what the authors can fit into the second volume on secondary, branch and non-passenger workings as that subject is even more vast and complicated than the principal services.

 

I liked the approach Clive Carter used many years ago in his book on LMS/LMR train formations where he picked particular trains and showed how they evolved over time. It's something I have done with several trains, including the Capitals Limited and Elizabethan back in 2013. I believe Clive Carter also wrote an LNER volume but the publishers dropped it as the LMS/LMR one didn't sell very well.

 

Afternoon Robert,

 

more of a metaphorical bin, as you will know, it has always been my intention to turn what is a rather dusty set of data into something that lives again. Model railways being an excellent way to do so in my opinion. Currently I'm working on what will probably be my final train, one of sets involved in the working of the 'Banbury motor', or at least it's return working to Leicester.

 

With regard to Vol1 of Blah Blah, I will confess that the criticism aimed at the book as regards the lack of information on the GE section is a little unfair in my opinion. The book was never intended as a blow by blow trip around all the divisions of the LNER, rather, an explanation of how the LNER went about things and providing examples. There are very good reasons for this approach, for example, what the GN mainline was doing with it's three, four and five sets was not radical different from any other division. A book that takes a division by division approach would be effectively repeating the same information from chapter to chapter. In addition, It has to be recognised the records are incomplete. Two many railway publications in the past have been guilty of presenting the Authors opinions as facts, just to provide a neat overall picture. The book dose not attempt to speculate on areas were the information is just not available. My own opinion is that it is better to do this rather then invent a scenario for the sake of completeness. Perhaps this may encourage others to fill in the gaps, if they have the information hidden away in an attic or basement.

 

Where I feel the book is entirely successful is in contextualising the raw data, It was less so in regard to the mistakes that crept into some of the captions. My own involvement was a small part of the whole but I did gain an understanding of the shear insanity of trying to manage such a project. Like yourself I am  somewhat reluctant to commit to any writings, be it articles or books, too much hard work for too little gain. Interestingly, the GC book was originally intended to be combined with a modelling theme. One can hope that this and the other projects someday come to fruition.

 

Finally, I must commend your own efforts with regard to CWN's. The preservation and dissemination of such material, mostly at your own expense, is a fine achievement. It is to be hopped that it will bare fruit by encouraging people to search for the how's and whys by placing data in it's proper context. My own wish would be that more of the information available would come to fruition on future model railways. Certainly, that would encourage those that invest time in such written projects to publish.

[Headstock]

Agreed about train formations at shows; there's Rule 1, there's against railway procedure and Rule Book, and there's physically impossible, but you can't blame people who don't know better if the resources are not readily available for them to find out.  Maybe a few online basic tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea, pointing out that 'the rules' change over period.  Trouble is, this isn't really the place for them, as I would suggest that, if you are using this forum, you are probably already aware of 'the rules' for your layout's era and background geography.  Common mistakes on pre-mid 80s exhibition layouts include:-

 

. Unfitted freight stock, including vacuum stock behind air brake only locos and vice versa, without brake vans

. Private owner mineral wagons with BR steam and even blue diesel locos

. Passenger trains with no guard's compartment

. Passenger trains of air braked, electrically heated, and/or air conditioned stock behind steam locos or diesels never fitted with air brakes and/or eth/airco equipment

. Dmus with twin marker red tail lamps lit 

. Diesel or Electric locos hauling trains with their twin marker red tail lamps lit

. Private owner industrial locos on BR track, sometimes hauling branch passenger trains.  If you're not modelling specific locations in the North East of England where this was permitted, keep 'em on company premises or exchange sidings!

. Private owner industrial locos hauling passenger trains.  Yes, I know some places operated 'paddy trains', but industrial sidings with a 'proper' station, booking hall, station sign, and all, sometimes on otherwise very good shunting problem layouts, are far too common.  The operating relationship between BR (previous and subsequent main line companies are available) and industrial networks is in general poorly understood, and indeed varied according to the actual arrangements between the railway and the industrial concern, um, concerned, but usual practice was that paddy trains' passengers got on or off from the ground, or a basic wooden platform at best.

 

I am less qualified to comment about what I regard as 'modern image' layouts, post mid 80s, say, as prototype practice has changed since my time and I haven't kept up, but I would have thought that the opportunities for running trains with prototypically incompatible couplers is much enhanced; fortunately, perhaps, the modern prevalence of multiple unit 'set' trains and block freight workings mitigates agin it.

 

I have not addressed livery or period anomalies, and concede that some people are happy to tolerate these under the authority of Rule 1.  I am not perfect in this respect myself, specifying a wide enough period (1948-60) to run a 2721 in 1942-7 austerity GWR black grotesque withdrawn in 1950 alongside a 56xx with a ferret and dartboard in lined post 1956 WR green livery and with some lined maroon stock, but I try to keep things compatible within trains.  My excuse, justified under Rule 1, is that part of the layout's purpose is to represent as many, and hopefully ultimately all, of the liveries from that very fluid period, and I can live with the anomalies; at least I am aware that they are anomalies!  1955 Rule Book is followed as far as possible.

 

What I am talking about here are fairly seriously modelled exhibition layouts, not 'train set' types which I believe have a place at public shows as a valid example of what can be achieved in that  genre; sometimes such layouts show a better awareness of actual operating practice than some finer scale efforts!  Of course, some folks' main interest is in modelling buildings, or scenery, or bridges, and they regard the trains as secondary to, and the background or setting for, this, but that just makes sloppy train formations and poor operating practice more irritating, and one doesn't want to challenge people who have done their best, whose buildings and scenery are better than one's, and who will accuse one of being a rivet counter, which one definitely isn't.

 

Don't get me started on whizz whizz running, stabbed rat starts, and brick wall stops on otherwise perfectly presented layouts...

 

Nothing wrong with PO wagons with BR era steam.

[£1.38]

Nothing wrong with PO wagons with BR era steam.

 

or private owner locos hauling railway stock....

 

...just one example was when Sheppey was isolated from the mainland in SECR days, after a ship collided with the bridge. Just about any loco on the island was hired and used to run services.

 

A Wantage Tramway loco rescued the GW slip coach after it overran Wantage Station on at least one occasion.

 

It is dangerous to generalise. Someone will always find an exception somewhere, sometime, somehow.

[robertcwp]

Afternoon Robert,

 

more of a metaphorical bin, as you will know, it has always been my intention to turn what is a rather dusty set of data into something that lives again. Model railways being an excellent way to do so in my opinion. Currently I'm working on what will probably be my final train, one of sets involved in the working of the 'Banbury motor', or at least it's return working to Leicester.

 

With regard to Vol1 of Blah Blah, I will confess that the criticism aimed at the book as regards the lack of information on the GE section is a little unfair in my opinion. The book was never intended as a blow by blow trip around all the divisions of the LNER, rather, an explanation of how the LNER went about things and providing examples. There are very good reasons for this approach, for example, what the GN mainline was doing with it's three, four and five sets was not radical different from any other division. A book that takes a division by division approach would be effectively repeating the same information from chapter to chapter. In addition, It has to be recognised the records are incomplete. Two many railway publications in the past have been guilty of presenting the Authors opinions as facts, just to provide a neat overall picture. The book dose not attempt to speculate on areas were the information is just not available. My own opinion is that it is better to do this rather then invent a scenario for the sake of completeness. Perhaps this may encourage others to fill in the gaps, if they have the information hidden away in an attic or basement.

 

Where I feel the book is entirely successful is in contextualising the raw data, It was less so in regard to the mistakes that crept into some of the captions. My own involvement was a small part of the whole but I did gain an understanding of the shear insanity of trying to manage such a project. Like yourself I am  somewhat reluctant to commit to any writings, be it articles or books, too much hard work for too little gain. Interestingly, the GC book was originally intended to be combined with a modelling theme. One can hope that this and the other projects someday come to fruition.

 

Finally, I must commend your own efforts with regard to CWN's. The preservation and dissemination of such material, mostly at your own expense, is a fine achievement. It is to be hopped that it will bare fruit by encouraging people to search for the how's and whys by placing data in it's proper context. My own wish would be that more of the information available would come to fruition on future model railways. Certainly, that would encourage those that invest time in such written projects to publish.

On the subject of coverage, the approach could perhaps have been explained better in the introduction as it isn't obvious to the reader or the reviewer.

 

There has been a series of articles in Great Eastern Journal over recent years about its coaching stock and it would be good if there were sufficient information to do at least an Oakwood-style book on GE carriages and their workings. I joined GERS a few years ago largely because I knew next to nothing about the GER. Their journal is very good. GERS has published some copy carriage workings, including a few provided by me, but no LNER-era GE section ones so far, so perhaps no one has found any.

 

I have had enough to do with books relating to my profession not to want to write any outside of work. Perhaps that will be something for my retirement!  I don't think anyone can seriously write a decent railway book for the money. Those who do it for the money generally trot out ill-researched rubbish.

 

The GC is a particular area of interest for me and I would welcome a detailed account of the line's workings, especially in its latter days.  The question for a publisher would be: will it sell? Hopefully, the fact that Vol 1 clearly did sell will provide some confidence. Today, there is also the potential to self-publish via Blurb or similar, as another member of this forum did for his very good two-volume work on the LD&ECR.

 

Whilst on the GC, I posted this to another forum but without any real success:

 

The latest issue of the GCR Society journal 'Forward' includes a photo of A5 tank 69828 bunker first on the up Master Cutler complete with headboard. The engine is in what became the BR mixed traffic lined black, lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS. 69828 was a very early recipient of this livery when it was still officially experimental and was reported as carrying it by mid-1948. The carriages are in LNER colours with a Thompson BCK at the front. As the Cutler was one of the first trains to gain a full set of crimson & cream stock in mid-1949, the photo was probably taken in 1948 or the first half of 1949. No other information is available although the location is probably south of Aylesbury and the deciduous trees in the background are not in full leaf, which probably rules out Summer.

[Headstock]

On the subject of coverage, the approach could perhaps have been explained better in the introduction as it isn't obvious to the reader or the reviewer.

 

There has been a series of articles in Great Eastern Journal over recent years about its coaching stock and it would be good if there were sufficient information to do at least an Oakwood-style book on GE carriages and their workings. I joined GERS a few years ago largely because I knew next to nothing about the GER. Their journal is very good. GERS has published some copy carriage workings, including a few provided by me, but no LNER-era GE section ones so far, so perhaps no one has found any.

 

I have had enough to do with books relating to my profession not to want to write any outside of work. Perhaps that will be something for my retirement!  I don't think anyone can seriously write a decent railway book for the money. Those who do it for the money generally trot out ill-researched rubbish.

 

The GC is a particular area of interest for me and I would welcome a detailed account of the line's workings, especially in its latter days.  The question for a publisher would be: will it sell? Hopefully, the fact that Vol 1 clearly did sell will provide some confidence. Today, there is also the potential to self-publish via Blurb or similar, as another member of this forum did for his very good two-volume work on the LD&ECR.

 

Whilst on the GC, I posted this to another forum but without any real success:

 

The latest issue of the GCR Society journal 'Forward' includes a photo of A5 tank 69828 bunker first on the up Master Cutler complete with headboard. The engine is in what became the BR mixed traffic lined black, lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS. 69828 was a very early recipient of this livery when it was still officially experimental and was reported as carrying it by mid-1948. The carriages are in LNER colours with a Thompson BCK at the front. As the Cutler was one of the first trains to gain a full set of crimson & cream stock in mid-1949, the photo was probably taken in 1948 or the first half of 1949. No other information is available although the location is probably south of Aylesbury and the deciduous trees in the background are not in full leaf, which probably rules out Summer.

 

Robert,

 

I think I may have a copy of the photo you refer to, I shall have a look in the cupboard and see if I can find some more information. Something rings a bell information wise, though it may not refer to this specific locomotive on this particular occasion.

[Tony Wright]

I hope your GC material doesn't end up in the bin. If that really is where it is headed, I could provide the bin (ie back of my car)!

 

I have detected people at least making the effort to represent trains more accurately over the past 10 years since I set up my BRCoachingStock group and began making carriage working PDFs and other information freely available. I have now published over 400 carriage working books in PDF form via that group. Of course, the carriage workings are only one piece of the jigsaw puzzle and lots more information is needed in order to model trains accurately.

 

However, I have seen exhibition layouts where the operators could not even marshal a 4 Cep correctly, never mind a loco-hauled train, plus numerous diesel era trains with vacuum-braked locos on air-braked stock.

 

Although I have been asked several times, I don't think I could ever write a book about train workings and formations. I would not know where to start. I also think it's very difficult to distill things down into what most readers would find manageable. I had a go at writing a few magazine articles but found it very time consuming and difficult to get things right. I thought some of them came out rather basic but people commented that they were too technical and over their heads!  The one I did on the GC for BRM (at the then-editor's request) was probably the last for any of the mainstream magazines.

 

I would not want to nitpick over the Banks/Carter book but it was let down a little bit by some mistakes in carriage descriptions in captions where the type is obvious from the image and by its partial coverage of the subject, which as the authors acknowledged was largely due to having to work with the available information, which is somewhat patchy. (The ex-GER lines are a particular problem for information I believe.)  It will be interesting to see what the authors can fit into the second volume on secondary, branch and non-passenger workings as that subject is even more vast and complicated than the principal services.

 

I liked the approach Clive Carter used many years ago in his book on LMS/LMR train formations where he picked particular trains and showed how they evolved over time. It's something I have done with several trains, including the Capitals Limited and Elizabethan back in 2013. I believe Clive Carter also wrote an LNER volume but the publishers dropped it as the LMS/LMR one didn't sell very well.

Robert,

 

I think you're wise not to contemplate writing a railway book right now; not while you're still in full-time employment. That's not to say you don't have a book in you (probably several), but it's so time-consuming. 

 

Nobody I know has ever made a fortune writing railway books, least of all me. Just now Daddyman and I are completing our Booklaw book on describing the various (most of) ex-LNER classes in detail. David has ensured that the English in it will be correct. That's not always been the case with some more recently-published pictorial volumes. 

 

Largely because of my incompetence in time management, my contribution has overrun its deadline, delaying publication by a month. I've been a bit like a hermit for the last few weeks, surrounded by scores of pictures and dozens of books (I built a D9 to give myself a break!). 

 

I can spend that time now because I'm retired, and it's far better than just acting like a blob. I've also started work on my bookazine on the Class 50s for Irwell. I'm also taking pictures for Geoff Haynes painting book for Crowood. I think my family still recognises me!

[The Johnster]

Nothing wrong with PO wagons with BR era steam.

 

There is when they are all in ex works bright and shiny condition and none have BR 'P' series numbers.  We are talking 7 plank minerals, mind, plenty still around and I've a few myself, but not looking like a toy shop at xmas.  No ex PO minerals looked like that after the war, in fact mostly you couldn't see that they'd ever had a livery at all.  And I often see blue diesels and even later period locos hauling them about.

 

or private owner locos hauling railway stock....

 

...just one example was when Sheppey was isolated from the mainland in SECR days, after a ship collided with the bridge. Just about any loco on the island was hired and used to run services.

 

A Wantage Tramway loco rescued the GW slip coach after it overran Wantage Station on at least one occasion.

 

It is dangerous to generalise. Someone will always find an exception somewhere, sometime, somehow.

But it is best practice to model the normal situation unless you are modelling a specific where you know that the exception took place.  Sheppey in those circumstances might make an interesting model, but I would question where they got hold of vacuum fitted locos for passenger work and assume that we are talking about unfitted freight trains, and that the locos were hired by the SECR while SECR vacuum fitted locos trapped on the island worked the passenger trains.  I'd say that 'just one example' and 'at least one occasion' means one example, and one occasion.  By the way, my objection was to private industrial locos on BR track, not 'hauling railway stock' which of course they did on their own railways all the time.

 

If someone finds an exception somewhere, sometime, somehow, that does not make it acceptable modelling unless it is a specific model of that incident, and presented as such.

Edited July 23, 2017 by The Johnster