Wright writes.....

[landscapes]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think they are a bit too far back........

 

As a guide, when seen in side elevation, the front of the German deflectors should be a tiny bit behind the straight edge of the footplate, and their rears should be ahead of the first lined band. 

 

Like these..............

 

 

 

 

And, in model form....

 

 

This was travelling too quickly for me to 'freeze' it - the Rollie's shutter wasn't fast enough!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Evening Tony

 

A great set of photos

 

To far back or front, I prefer to see the A3’s without any type of smoke deflector fitted.

 

Dare I say it I even prefer Humorist’s smoke deflectors to the German Type.

 

Regards

 

David

 

[Tony Wright]

25 minutes ago, landscapes said:

Evening Tony

 

A great set of photos

 

To far back or front, I prefer to see the A3’s without any type of smoke deflector fitted.

 

Dare I say it I even prefer Humorist’s smoke deflectors to the German Type.

 

Regards

 

David

 

Thanks David,

 

To me it's a case of 'handsome is as handsome does', and the German deflectors on the A3s were the most-efficient of any type. Personally, I thought they made the old thoroughbreds look much more 'purposeful', especially as, with double Kylchaps, they were. 

 

Deflectors were needed because of the softer blast, and, had steam lived longer, the same sort might well have been fitted to the double-chimney V2s. 

 

As for HUMORIST, if her pseudo A1 deflectors had been so effective, then the other A3s would have been fitted with the same sort; but they weren't as efficient as the German ones. 

 

Of course, opinion is subjective, but I treasure my memories of seeing COLUMBO and LEMBERG standing at 51A, as MINORU raced by on a fast goods; all three fitted with 'blinkers'. How apposite for racehorses!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

For what it's worth ...

 

I'm in the 'yuck!' camp re the A3 German-style smoke deflectors. Horribly disfiguring things (even if they were effective). Gresley's original machine was - in my view - the most handsomely elegant of all the UK big class 7/8 express passenger locos. They never looked better than in the original A3 'Super Pacific' form in LNER Apple Green (No. 2743 'Felstead' onwards). Somehow that just rounded off a few minor aesthetic imperfections of the original A1 look.

 

Now a 'Duchess' with smoke defectors ... completely different matter 😆

[Chuffer Davies]

A few months ago, I fulfilled an item on my bucket list and built my first (and possibly last) P4 locomotive.  The basis was the excellent Bachmann C1 Atlantic in GNR livery.  The new chassis was one I designed in CAD and had etched in Nickel Silver by PPD Ltd.   Having built it I had nowhere to run it and so today I at last took up Geoff Tiffany's invitation to visit his fabulous P4 model of Dewsbury for a test run.  To mark the occasion, I have taken the attached short video which I hope subscribers to Wright Writes might enjoy.

 The visit was not 100% successful in that the front axle of the tender repeatedly derailed on a single slip.  A check of the B2B has revealed that one of the wheels has a slight wobble and is narrow to gauge in part as a result.  Unfortunately (:-) once I have had a chance to eliminate the wobble this will require a return visit to this remarkable layout to make sure its running is sorted.

 

This layout is truly a work of art and a must to see.  I understand its next public viewing is likely to be Expo EM-Summer (Wakefield) 2023 so get it in your diary now. 

 

Regards,

Frank

[chris p bacon]

5 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

 I at last took up Geoff Tiffany's invitation to visit his fabulous P4 model of Dewsbury for a test run.

Sounded like Dave Woodward in the background...

[Chuffer Davies]

7 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

Sounded like Dave Woodward in the background...

Now that would be telling....

[Barry Ten]

Wow, what a layout. And a nice loco too!

[johndon]

1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

This layout is truly a work of art and a must to see.

 

Saw it at Scalefour North a few years ago, built on the nicest set of baseboards I've ever seen...

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

A few months ago, I fulfilled an item on my bucket list and built my first (and possibly last) P4 locomotive.  The basis was the excellent Bachmann C1 Atlantic in GNR livery.  The new chassis was one I designed in CAD and had etched in Nickel Silver by PPD Ltd.   Having built it I had nowhere to run it and so today I at last took up Geoff Tiffany's invitation to visit his fabulous P4 model of Dewsbury for a test run.  To mark the occasion, I have taken the attached short video which I hope subscribers to Wright Writes might enjoy.

 The visit was not 100% successful in that the front axle of the tender repeatedly derailed on a single slip.  A check of the B2B has revealed that one of the wheels has a slight wobble and is narrow to gauge in part as a result.  Unfortunately (:-) once I have had a chance to eliminate the wobble this will require a return visit to this remarkable layout to make sure its running is sorted.

 

This layout is truly a work of art and a must to see.  I understand its next public viewing is likely to be Expo EM-Summer (Wakefield) 2023 so get it in your diary now. 

 

Regards,

Frank

Good morning Frank,

 

Exquisite modelling all round. Thanks for showing us. 

 

May I ask, does the loco have a Portescap? The reason I ask is that in my soon-to-be-shown video of Little Bytham's sequence, only those locos I've built with Portescaps (three in the sequence) are the ones where you can actually hear the motor/gearbox above the mechanical noises of the trains. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chuffer Davies]

14 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Frank,

 

Exquisite modelling all round. Thanks for showing us. 

 

May I ask, does the loco have a Portescap? The reason I ask is that in my soon-to-be-shown video of Little Bytham's sequence, only those locos I've built with Portescaps (three in the sequence) are the ones where you can actually hear the motor/gearbox above the mechanical noises of the trains. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

you are of course correct.  It’s actually one of the early (quiet) gearboxes but in Geoff’s near silent railway room you can still hear the whine of the bevel gears.  You wouldn’t hear it in an exhibition hall whereas the whine of the later Portescaps would still be heard above the noise of a big hall.  
Frank

[2750Papyrus]

14 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

For what it's worth ...

 

I'm in the 'yuck!' camp re the A3 German-style smoke deflectors. Horribly disfiguring things (even if they were effective). Gresley's original machine was - in my view - the most handsomely elegant of all the UK big class 7/8 express passenger locos. They never looked better than in the original A3 'Super Pacific' form in LNER Apple Green (No. 2743 'Felstead' onwards). Somehow that just rounded off a few minor aesthetic imperfections of the original A1 look.

 

Now a 'Duchess' with smoke defectors ... completely different matter 😆

Given my web name, it should come as no surprise that I also consider the A3s to be the most handsome UK Pacific loco, especially when teamed with a high-sided tender.  Fitting double chimneys extended their performance and probably lives, but the comparative softness of the exhaust made the smoke obscuration problem worse.  At least the German style deflectors ensured their continued unique appearance and, to my mind, looked somehow more modern than full length deflectors. 

 

After all, many racehorses perform best in blinkers!

[gr.king]

12 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

A few months ago, I fulfilled an item on my bucket list and built my first (and possibly last) P4 locomotive.  The basis was the excellent Bachmann C1 Atlantic in GNR livery.  The new chassis was one I designed in CAD and had etched in Nickel Silver by PPD Ltd.   Having built it I had nowhere to run it and so today I at last took up Geoff Tiffany's invitation to visit his fabulous P4 model of Dewsbury for a test run.  To mark the occasion, I have taken the attached short video which I hope subscribers to Wright Writes might enjoy.

 The visit was not 100% successful in that the front axle of the tender repeatedly derailed on a single slip.  A check of the B2B has revealed that one of the wheels has a slight wobble and is narrow to gauge in part as a result.  Unfortunately (:-) once I have had a chance to eliminate the wobble this will require a return visit to this remarkable layout to make sure its running is sorted.

 

This layout is truly a work of art and a must to see.  I understand its next public viewing is likely to be Expo EM-Summer (Wakefield) 2023 so get it in your diary now. 

 

Regards,

Frank

Lovely broad gauge rebuild of the Atlantic Frank, and thank you for showing it on Dewsbury Central which I haven't seen for three or four years now. The further developments are a pleasure to see.

My perception of the background noise level at some exhibitions, even when not at their busiest, suggests to me that rather a lot of mechanism noise, never mind just the whine of later Portescaps, would simply go un-noticed. The additional noise from layouts with multiple un-necessary  sound effects almost guarantees it now...

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

Lovely broad gauge rebuild of the Atlantic Frank, and thank you for showing it on Dewsbury Central which I haven't seen for three or four years now. The further developments are a pleasure to see.

My perception of the background noise level at some exhibitions, even when not at their busiest, suggests to me that rather a lot of mechanism noise, never mind just the whine of later Portescaps, would simply go un-noticed. The additional noise from layouts with multiple un-necessary  sound effects almost guarantees it now...

Good afternoon Graeme,

 

Loco noises at exhibitions?

 

When I first started exhibiting, I thought I'd cracked how to make 'silent' locos. I'd build one, think it to be slightly noisy on my test track, then take it to an exhibition and assume that a bit of running-in on a layout had made it inaudible. I'd then bring it home, proving that my assumption was incorrect!

 

Out of possible interest, I've just come back from one of the model railway clubs it's my privilege to be an honorary member of. One guy was running a sound-fitted steam-outline loco on one of the DCC test tracks. By coincidence, another guy was sawing some wood in the same room. I closed my eyes, and couldn't tell the difference in sound!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[D-A-T]

I think the DCC Sound guys have cracked it for diesel locomotives. In their case I genuinely think it adds to the exhibition experience.

 

However the DCC Sound for steam locomotives is woeful in comparison. It jars and seems ‘unattached’ to the model. I’ve thought about it a lot and cannot identify why this should be so. It is I think a combination of factors which would take an hour or more to list. But I do hope they solve the issues, I’ve a sneaky suspicion it would take multiple speakers to create believable sound in a model steam locomotive.

(That then brings on the question if there is sound from locomotives then where is the ambient station noise, countryside noise etc etc).

Edited December 6, 2022 by D-A-T
Syntax

[davidw]

I agree with D-A-T.  Diesel sounds are very good. Even the budget Hornby TTS aren't too bad. Steam sounds however aren't good at all. As for the new Hornby smoke generators.......

 

Time will tell.

[5 C]

Steam sounds? I've yet to be convinced that DCC offerings are any better than this:

 

 

Yes it is mine btw and no, I don't use it.

 

As for diesel sounds, yes I'll concede they are rather more realistic - but only to a point. Many exhibitors seem to forget that less is more and think that a maximum volume cacophony of whistling, rattling and sundry other sounds is all that's required. 

 

For me, overdone sounds are up (down?) there with twinkling, floodlight strength ice white lighting where a subtle tungsten glow or maybe even less is more appropriate.

Edited December 6, 2022 by 5 C
Typo

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Graeme,

 

Loco noises at exhibitions?

 

When I first started exhibiting, I thought I'd cracked how to make 'silent' locos. I'd build one, think it to be slightly noisy on my test track, then take it to an exhibition and assume that a bit of running-in on a layout had made it inaudible. I'd then bring it home, proving that my assumption was incorrect!

 

Out of possible interest, I've just come back from one of the model railway clubs it's my privilege to be an honorary member of. One guy was running a sound-fitted steam-outline loco on one of the DCC test tracks. By coincidence, another guy was sawing some wood in the same room. I closed my eyes, and couldn't tell the difference in sound!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

My Triang Flying Scotsman has the ultimate a sandpapery noise thing in the tender, sounds as good as DCC steam,and I told an owner of one that,

[LNERandBR]

Technology is always moving forwards and DCC Sound has improved as speakers and the decoders themselves have developed. The latest offerings in Steam Sound Decoders are far better than what went before. The best I've heard recently being the Bachmann Double Fairlie.

 

You sometimes have to work very hard to fit the best sound components you can into a model. However, unlike detail or weathering they are under the skin. Nobody will know the hours of effort that went into getting the speaker to fit into the bunker. A smaller one would have fitted easier but the sound produced would be worse.

 

So you've taken an RTR model and fitted sound, crew, detailed it, added the correct lamps and weathered it. Then someone comes along and compares it to the old Hornby sandpaper tender.

 

Thing is people are going to still run their older decoders, even if they have shortcomings. So it's all too easy to tar all steam DCC sound with the same brush. Take the brush as far as the model you hear at that spacific time. Then, maybe give it a chance before you go grabbing for that tar brush.

[micklner]

Tar Brush??  stick that where the god awful annoying "sounds"comes from please !! 🙃😂.

 

Diesels not too bad. 

Steam looks  simply daft all the OTT noises, and no decent Steam,  pointless having one without the other in effect/action at the same time.

Edited December 6, 2022 by micklner

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

I think the DCC Sound guys have cracked it for diesel locomotives. In their case I genuinely think it adds to the exhibition experience.

 

However the DCC Sound for steam locomotives is woeful in comparison. It jars and seems ‘unattached’ to the model. I’ve thought about it a lot and cannot identify why this should be so. It is I think a combination of factors which would take an hour or more to list. But I do hope they solve the issues, I’ve a sneaky suspicion it would take multiple speakers to create believable sound in a model steam locomotive.

(That then brings on the question if there is sound from locomotives then where is the ambient station noise, countryside noise etc etc).

Suspension of disbelief. Nothing on a model railway is real - our brains are providing the interpretation of what we see and hear. Static cattle, leaves that never rustle, trains without passengers, steam locomotives without smoke or steam etc - we fill the gaps with what we want to.

 

DCC sound, steam or diesel, 'works' for me - a good steam loco sound project properly driven can be very convincing. There was a small layout at Warley, a Southern branch station with a OO sound fitted Adam radial running around its train that was absolutely mesmerizing. That was down to the sound project and the operator. Wish I could recall its name, best in the show for me.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

I think the DCC Sound guys have cracked it for diesel locomotives. In their case I genuinely think it adds to the exhibition experience.

 

However the DCC Sound for steam locomotives is woeful in comparison. It jars and seems ‘unattached’ to the model. I’ve thought about it a lot and cannot identify why this should be so. It is I think a combination of factors which would take an hour or more to list. But I do hope they solve the issues, I’ve a sneaky suspicion it would take multiple speakers to create believable sound in a model steam locomotive.

(That then brings on the question if there is sound from locomotives then where is the ambient station noise, countryside noise etc etc).

The problem of course being, that once enough mass has been removed from the chassis block to make way for multiple speakers, what hope will anything but an air-smoothed Bulleid have of pulling a sensible load?

 

Maybe the loco will need to be purely cosmetic, with a silent source of propulsion being installed in the lead vehicle of the train....

 

John

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

We "did" DCC sound before and I came to the staggering conclusion that some people like it and some people don't.

 

Has changed their minds about it since then?

 

I certainly haven't.

[Steamport Southport]

49 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Suspension of disbelief. Nothing on a model railway is real - our brains are providing the interpretation of what we see and hear. Static cattle, leaves that never rustle, trains without passengers, steam locomotives without smoke or steam etc - we fill the gaps with what we want to.

 

DCC sound, steam or diesel, 'works' for me - a good steam loco sound project properly driven can be very convincing. There was a small layout at Warley, a Southern branch station with a OO sound fitted Adam radial running around its train that was absolutely mesmerizing. That was down to the sound project and the operator. Wish I could recall its name, best in the show for me.

 

I think I saw the same layout, it had a Beattie Well Tank and possibly O2 as well as a couple of bigger engines such as a Mogul.

 

One of the few "sound" layouts that has been convincing IMHO.

 

Camel Quay rings a bell.

 

 

Jason

[LNERandBR]

36 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

We "did" DCC sound before and I came to the staggering conclusion that some people like it and some people don't.

 

Has changed their minds about it since then?

 

I certainly haven't.

 

I suspect if anything some opinions will be more polarised.

 

Sound in general is very subjective, what sounds 'right' to one person will be 'wrong' for another.

 

It's the same as the DC vs DCC debate. Some people will never swap from their chosen control method and there's no reason why they should.

 

Our great hobby is full of these debates. Everyone is free to take their own path. 

[Chamby]

Without wishing to prolong yet another DCC sound debate, the difference between steam and diesel sound projects needs a little further definition.  
 

Diesel sounds are relatively simple to install, assuming that a good quality speaker is used then they are often ‘plug and play’.  The body shape also tends to provide more scope for a larger speaker installation, enhancing the bass effect and improving the perception of a good tone to the sound.

 

Steam projects are altogether more fickle to install properly.  There is less space available in the body for a speaker, unless the tender is used - as is the case with most factory installed sound.  The best installations will place an additional small cube speaker in the smoke box to reproduce higher frequency sound at the front end of the locomotive, where it mostly belongs.

 

The other thing that most steam installations don’t get right is (perhaps bizarrely) how the sound file looks.  Whereas diesels just glide along, steam installations will only sound right when the sounds are synchronised to the valvegear.  Four chuffs per rotation for a 2 or 4 cylinder loco, six for 3 cylinders.  Not only that, the ‘chuff’ rate needs to continue to match the motion as the locomotive accelerates, until the speed at which the eye can’t keep up with the correlation.  This requires a level of programming skill that most modellers simply haven’t acquired… or bothered to learn, more like.  It also needs to be tailored to individual locomotives, I have transferred a well matched chip to a sister model of the same class/manufacturer and found that the motor has slightly different drive characteristics, so the synchronicity was out again.

 

I suspect that this lack of synchronicity is a significant reason why an otherwise excellent steam sound project just doesn’t seem to be right.  It can be done, but I’ve only rarely seen it achieved - including at premier exhibitions.