Wright writes.....

[davidw]

49 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

As the subject of “pantry cars” has been mentioned, it reminds me of a question I need to ask, please. I’m shortly starting work on an Isinglass kit of one of these and am unsure yet whether to put it into maroon or ‘blood and custard’ livery. But in either case, would the vehicle have carried any “Restaurant Car” or similar branding?  I understand some of the Gresley TO/SO allocated for dining at this time did and others didn’t, but both photographically and in the reference sources I have, the Thompson Pantry vehicles are quite low-profile and I’m not sure. Thanks. 

I'm fairly sure that the Thompson pantry cars carried Restaurant Car branding. I've not access to it at the moment, we're in the process of a house move. There's a photo of one in the Harris book with I think the branding applied. I applied the branding to my version which was derived from comet etches. Which I'll run with an RF. 

The Harris photo is maroon. 

Not many Thompson pantry's were constructed. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by davidw
Add some thing.

[Ray Flintoft]

19 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Brian,

 

So my pricing isn't too expensive for the horsebox?

 

I've found a V2 smokebox door, so will post it to you. I must have your address somewhere, but can you PM me with it, please?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

  Hi Tony,

    The kit Brian bought was one I had donated to the TBLT to help raise money for the overhaul of 61264. He has been in contact with me directly & I have found the missing smokebox door ( it probably fell out when I was checking the kit for missing parts ! )I will be posting it on to him in the next day or two & look forward to seeing the completed kit on here.

                        Regards,

                           Ray.

[Woodcock29]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The NER cattle wagon has a "Large" designation but looks like the Wizard/51L Medium van, the Large Cattle wagon kit is from Parkside, hence plastic, and looks quite different. If fitted with etched (preferably compensated) then it would be of interest.

 

Jol

The NE cattle van shown by Tony is a D&S GC cattle van. I said previously that it was a fitted van but now I've had a better look (previously it was just before I went to bed after 12am!) I can see it is just a through- piped van - but should be in red oxide livery. I have 3 of these - a fitted version to build, the through-piped van I built around 40 years ago and an unfitted van purchased built, a few years ago from a friend here in Adelaide. All of these are full whitemetal kits there are no brass components other than the wire for the rails and bearings I supplied - I've just checked the unmade fitted version I have.

 

Here on the right is the through-piped version I built 40 years ago. The van on the left is a D&S GN cattle van. The GC van shouldn't have a white interior - at that time I didn't know that the the use of lime for cleaning had been discontinued in the mid 20s. Maybe one day I'll remove the roof and repaint the interior.

 

I bought my first D&S wagon kits from Chris Crawley on Lordship Lane at Tottenham during a visit to the UK back in 1981. I owe a lot of thanks to Danny Pinnock for producing all that he has. Overall I have around 140-150 D&S wagons (with around 30 of these still to be built), many bought new when released by Danny with a few bought on eBay - but not in recent times - I wouldn't pay the silly prices being asked now. I've also purchased quite a few from a friend here in Adelaide as he has down-sized his collection. Last year I bought a batch of 50 built wagons at auction from a deceased estate of one of our BRMA members in Sydney - nearly half I would say were D&S - most need substantial renovation - which is a slow process given the other projects I need to undertake. But that's very acceptable when the average price per wagon was $5.62 or about £3 per wagon. 

 

Andrew

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Woodcock29
add comment

[robertcwp]

56 minutes ago, davidw said:

I'm fairly sure that the Thompson pantry cars carried Restaurant Car branding. I've not access to it at the moment, we're in the process of a house move. There's a photo of one in the Harris book with I think the branding applied. I applied the branding to my version which was derived from comet etches. Which I'll run with an RF. 

The Harris photo is maroon. 

Not many Thompson pantry's were constructed. 

Yes, there is a photo of a maroon Thompson pantry car in the Harris LNER Carriages book with restaurant car branding. I have no yet found a photo of a Gresley one in maroon with the branding. However, the final batch of Gresley ones was built during WW2 and ran initially as open firsts, later downgraded to open thirds/seconds, and I believe their pantry equipment (if fitted) was never used.

 

The Mousa etches are of the earlier variant with shallow window vents. I found a photo of one with shallow vents and the later angle-iron trussing but it was in LNER livery. It did, however, provide support for the variant Brian produced for me.

 

Brian and I decided against RESTAURANT CAR branding on my one.

[robertcwp]

A further small Retford update, but without any photos or video as I forgot to do any, is that 60027 Merlin has retired from Elizabethan service after many years and has been replaced by 60012 Commonwealth of Australia, which is a Hornby model, modified and regauged by Sandra. It ended up being something of a hybrid of two separate Hornby A4s. It can shift the train without the slightest trouble and was clocked at - if I recall correctly - a scale 112 mph on one run.

[polybear]

42 minutes ago, Ray Flintoft said:

  Hi Tony,

    The kit Brian bought was one I had donated to the TBLT to help raise money for the overhaul of 61264. He has been in contact with me directly & I have found the missing smokebox door ( it probably fell out when I was checking the kit for missing parts ! )I will be posting it on to him in the next day or two & look forward to seeing the completed kit on here.

                        Regards,

                           Ray.

 

It does seem that there's a risk that Bear may soon be awash with V2 Smokebox doors 🤣 - shortly after Tony posted that he'd found one and was kindly sending it to me I heard that Ray (who'd kindly donated several kits to the B1 Loco Trust so they could use them to raise funds to help overhaul the Loco) had been contacted by them (full marks to the Trust for "Customer Service") and had found the missing item. 

I have emailed Ray to suggest he hold off sending the part (as I suspect that Tony may have beaten him to it).  The good news is that (a) I've managed to locate a suitable part (thanks Tony & Ray), (b) the B1 Trust have raised much needed funds, and (c) CRUK will be getting a donation.

All in all, a pretty good outcome 😃

Kind Regards,

Brian

 

(Incidentally, the Trust are also selling a Nucast K1 with wheels (£50), a Proscale A1 with wheels (£60) and a DJH A1 with wheels (£110) should anybody be interested - all are on Ebay)

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Ray Flintoft said:

  Hi Tony,

    The kit Brian bought was one I had donated to the TBLT to help raise money for the overhaul of 61264. He has been in contact with me directly & I have found the missing smokebox door ( it probably fell out when I was checking the kit for missing parts ! )I will be posting it on to him in the next day or two & look forward to seeing the completed kit on here.

                        Regards,

                           Ray.

Good afternoon Ray,

 

I've just posted a Jamieson V2 smokebox door off to him!

 

Would you mind sending the one you've got to me, please? It'll then go into the spares box until someone else wants such a 'door.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

As the subject of “pantry cars” has been mentioned, it reminds me of a question I need to ask, please. I’m shortly starting work on an Isinglass kit of one of these and am unsure yet whether to put it into maroon or ‘blood and custard’ livery. But in either case, would the vehicle have carried any “Restaurant Car” or similar branding?  I understand some of the Gresley TO/SO allocated for dining at this time did and others didn’t, but both photographically and in the reference sources I have, the Thompson Pantry vehicles are quite low-profile and I’m not sure. Thanks. 

Good afternoon,

 

The following might help...........

 

 

A Gresley Pantry Second.

 

This is Tony Geary's work, and since he reads this column regularly he might like to comment on how he made it. 

 

 

And a Thompson equivalent.

 

Again, Tony's work (I think this has Southern Pride sides).

 

 

And one built by Alan Buckenham for the late Geoff Brewin. I think this uses SP sides and Comet components.

 

The branding is incorrect here. The BR roundel should be below 'Restaurant Car', not between. 

 

 

And, finally, a Thompson Pantry Second built/painted by me. 

 

This uses SP sides on top of an old Bachmann donor (with the roof re-profiled), running on cast metal HD bogies. 

 

In all cases, these are branded 'Restaurant Car', and since the three on LB all run in partnership with either an RK, RU or RF, I think that's appropriate. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

It does seem that there's a risk that Bear may soon be awash with V2 Smokebox doors 🤣 - shortly after Tony posted that he'd found one and was kindly sending it to me I heard that Ray (who'd kindly donated several kits to the B1 Loco Trust so they could use them to raise funds to help overhaul the Loco) had been contacted by them (full marks to the Trust for "Customer Service") and had found the missing item. 

I have emailed Ray to suggest he hold off sending the part (as I suspect that Tony may have beaten him to it).  The good news is that (a) I've managed to locate a suitable part (thanks Tony & Ray), (b) the B1 Trust have raised much needed funds, and (c) CRUK will be getting a donation.

All in all, a pretty good outcome 😃

Kind Regards,

Brian

 

(Incidentally, the Trust are also selling a Nucast K1 with wheels (£50), a Proscale A1 with wheels (£60) and a DJH A1 with wheels (£110) should anybody be interested - all are on Ebay)

 

Does CRUK accept smokebox doors as donations then?

 

More seriously, it's great to see so much willingness to help out. What a great hobby.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

More seriously, it's great to see so much willingness to help out. What a great hobby.

 

If anyone has any naughty words going spare I'm sure I can find a good use for them......

[Willie Whizz]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon,

 

The following might help...........

 

 

A Gresley Pantry Second.

 

This is Tony Geary's work, and since he reads this column regularly he might like to comment on how he made it. 

 

 

And a Thompson equivalent.

 

Again, Tony's work (I think this has Southern Pride sides).

 

 

And one built by Alan Buckenham for the late Geoff Brewin. I think this uses SP sides and Comet components.

 

The branding is incorrect here. The BR roundel should be below 'Restaurant Car', not between. 

 

 

And, finally, a Thompson Pantry Second built/painted by me. 

 

This uses SP sides on top of an old Bachmann donor (with the roof re-profiled), running on cast metal HD bogies. 

 

In all cases, these are branded 'Restaurant Car', and since the three on LB all run in partnership with either an RK, RU or RF, I think that's appropriate. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Many thanks Tony, and others who commented. Maroon with ‘branding’ looks like being the way I shall go then. Looking forward to building something that moves again; I seem to have spent many months wiring and ballasting and I’m so bored!!!

[Jol Wilkinson]

5 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

The NE cattle van shown by Tony is a D&S GC cattle van. I said previously that it was a fitted van but now I've had a better look (previously it was just before I went to bed after 12am!) I can see it is just a through- piped van - but should be in red oxide livery. I have 3 of these - a fitted version to build, the through-piped van I built around 40 years ago and an unfitted van purchased built, a few years ago from a friend here in Adelaide. All of these are full whitemetal kits there are no brass components other than the wire for the rails and bearings I supplied - I've just checked the unmade fitted version I have.

 

Here on the right is the through-piped version I built 40 years ago. The van on the left is a D&S GN cattle van. The GC van shouldn't have a white interior - at that time I didn't know that the the use of lime for cleaning had been discontinued in the mid 20s. Maybe one day I'll remove the roof and repaint the interior.

 

I bought my first D&S wagon kits from Chris Crawley on Lordship Lane at Tottenham during a visit to the UK back in 1981. I owe a lot of thanks to Danny Pinnock for producing all that he has. Overall I have around 140-150 D&S wagons (with around 30 of these still to be built), many bought new when released by Danny with a few bought on eBay - but not in recent times - I wouldn't pay the silly prices being asked now. I've also purchased quite a few from a friend here in Adelaide as he has down-sized his collection. Last year I bought a batch of 50 built wagons at auction from a deceased estate of one of our BRMA members in Sydney - nearly half I would say were D&S - most need substantial renovation - which is a slow process given the other projects I need to undertake. But that's very acceptable when the average price per wagon was $5.62 or about £3 per wagon. 

 

Andrew

 

 

 

Andrew,

 

thanks for clarifying that. The only NER cattle wagon kit  (which is what I thought it was) that I can find is a cast WM version from 51L, which is currently out of stock. Tony described the NE and GN models in the photo as white metal which is what I searched for.

 

Jol

[Tony Wright]

Sad to report that the 'modelling course' I'd have liked to run this autumn (for which I'd had 12 expressions of interest) will not now take place. 

 

I had hoped to run it at BRM's base (I did one some 15 years ago which was very successful), but insurance implications, along with health & safety ramifications, plus the fact that the base is no longer in operation 24 hours a day mean that it's just not possible. I understand fully the reasons, and there was no other choice. 

 

Might it be possible elsewhere? I'll have to investigate. 

[Ray Flintoft]

21 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Ray,

 

I've just posted a Jamieson V2 smokebox door off to him!

 

Would you mind sending the one you've got to me, please? It'll then go into the spares box until someone else wants such a 'door.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 That's fine Tony, I hope Brian enjoys building the kit & thanks to him for mentioning the kits still available on E-Bay.

 Up to now the trust has gained £700 from them which is desperately needed ( the overhaul is costed at roughly £750,000 ! )

  I will post off the spare smokebox door to you in the next day or two.

                           Regards,

                                    Ray.

[Tony Wright]

At the Ruddington Show, I was given a part-built Ratio Midland suburban carriage.

 

The sides had been painted, the underframe made and the bogies fitted. 

 

 

I just completed it and weathered it.

 

 

I'm hesitant to even call this a 'layout coach' because the finish is rather 'rough' (highlighted by my powerful lights!). 

 

It's in company with a Ratio ex-LNWR carriage I'm building. 

 

However,

 

 

away from the glare of powerful fill-in flash in a 'layout setting', its shortcomings aren't quite so apparent.

 

And,

 

 

when viewed from a very-usual angle (though a very-unusual angle which I take photos from), it's more-tolerable.

 

The late Brian Lee's scratch-built ex-Midland 3P does the hauling honours. 

 

The carriage reminds me of many (very) old vehicles I've photographed down the years, with everything painted by hand, running on contemporary layouts (where just about everything had been hand-built - out of necessity). I'll keep it as a 'curiosity' and make a donation to CRUK.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Northmoor]

55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

At the Ruddington Show, I was given a part-built Ratio Midland suburban carriage.

 

The sides had been painted, the underframe made and the bogies fitted. 

 

 

I just completed it and weathered it.

 

 

I'm hesitant to even call this a 'layout coach' because the finish is rather 'rough' (highlighted by my powerful lights!). 

 

It's in company with a Ratio ex-LNER carriage I'm building. 

 

However,

 

 

away from the glare of powerful fill-in flash in a 'layout setting', its shortcomings aren't quite so apparent.

 

And,

 

 

When viewed from a very-usual angle (though a very-unusual angle which I take photos from), it's more-tolerable.

 

The late Brian Lee's scratch-built ex-Midland 3P does the hauling honours. 

 

The carriage reminds me of many (very) old vehicles I've photographed down the years, with everything painted by hand, running on contemporary layouts (where just about everything had been hand-built - out of necessity). I'll keep it as a 'curiosity' and make a donation to CRUK.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder that in my Projects Pile I have a couple of those Ratio Midlands; one was part-built with everything completed below floor level (body missing) about 37 years ago......  I have quite a few kits with that sort of interval between starting and finishing.

 

What livery would these coaches have worn post 1948 and how long did they survive in the BR era?

[Tony Wright]

11 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Thanks for the reminder that in my Projects Pile I have a couple of those Ratio Midlands; one was part-built with everything completed below floor level (body missing) about 37 years ago......  I have quite a few kits with that sort of interval between starting and finishing.

 

What livery would these coaches have worn post 1948 and how long did they survive in the BR era?

Good evening Rob,

 

I doubt if any of the Midland suburban carriages survived into revenue-earning service in BR days. If they did, they'd be in plain brown; anyway, if any did survive, they'd probably be in shabby black, in Departmental use. 

 

No doubt, those with greater knowledge on such matters will explain. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[MJI]

I am painting a couple in crimson, no lining.

 

A few were in service until mid 50s

 

I fitted battery boxes to mine.

[Steamport Southport]

Funnily enough I found one recently when sorting out a few old boxes.

 

Started when I was about twelve and built as per the instructions (complete with the plastic wheels and Ratio tension lock couplings).  Never finished as I went on to Modern Image before I completed it. Very much salvageable.

 

Last sets went in 1957 according to Lacy/Dow in Midland Railway Carriages.

 

 

Jason

[MJI]

Great for cheapish old coaching stock,  even better if the area was once served by them.

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Funnily enough I found one recently when sorting out a few old boxes.

 

Started when I was about twelve and built as per the instructions (complete with the plastic wheels and Ratio tension lock couplings).  Never finished as I went on to Modern Image before I completed it. Very much salvageable.

 

Last sets went in 1957 according to Lacy/Dow in Midland Railway Carriages.

 

 

Jason

Thanks Jason,

 

I presume they'd all have been fitted with electric lighting by then? 

 

I've just flicked through a few books (I don't have any on Midland carriages, though I should), but cannot find any images of them in BR days. Where was their final sphere of operation, please?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

What livery would these coaches have worn post 1948 and how long did they survive in the BR era?

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Where was their final sphere of operation, please?

 

The Ratio Midland Suburban carriages represent 48 ft, 8 ft 6 in wide stock on 10 ft wheelbase bogies, built first in 1903 for the Manchester South District services, where the ran in nine-coach sets of four firsts, three thirds, and two 6-compartment brake thirds. These sets were withdrawn between 1938 and 1947. More were built in 1908/9 for the Birmingham District, where they ran in 6-coach sets, BT (6 compt) / T / F / F / T / BT (6 compt) and in two sorts of 4-coach sets, BT (6 compt) / F / T / BT (6 compt) and BT (4 compt) / C / T / BT (4 compt), the latter being used on the Gloucestershire loop line to Evesham and Ashchurch. Many of these carriages were transferred to the LT&S section, they were mostly withdrawn in the late 40s / early 50s. There were similar carriages built for the Sheffield District (with two four-coach sets for the Worth Valley) in 1914, but with 8 ft wheelbase bogies; a good number of these lasted until 1957/8. Some of the brake thirds (4 compt) were converted to motor train operation with the usual large windows in the driver's end, one being photographed on the Mansfield and Southwell service in 1955. That carriage at least was electrically-lit.

 

There were many similar carriages built 9 ft wide and 50 ft or 48 ft long, as sets for the London and Nottingham areas, which also survived to the late 50s. All these sets were close-coupled with short buffers except at the brake ends, so to be used as loose carriages would have to have had long buffers fitted at the non-brake ends. It seems unlikely that this happened; when transferred to the LT&S section they continued to work in sets with other short-buffered carriages. 

 

So as far as i can work out, if one sticks strictly to the types represented by the Ratio kits, the final sphere of operation, in the 1950s, would be either the Tilbury section or, with 8 ft bogies, the ex-Midland lines in Notts / Derbys / S. Yorks. If one allows more latitude, similar sets also remained at work in the London area. It does seem that sets surviving into the mid-50s were painted BR crimson.

 

Sorry for all that, more than you wanted to know, I know, but the Birmingham Area sets are a particular hobby-horse of mine!

Edited July 6, 2023 by Compound2632
Correction to the carriage widths.

[Tony Wright]

When I was given the ex-Midland carriage in question...........

 

 

I was also given another pair of sides (along with some other sundry bits from the kit). 

 

The painting is obviously not pro-quality, but it represents a creditable attempt at complex lining in my view.

 

Since I have no use for them, if anyone has then please PM me with an address to send them to (first come, first served). All I'll ask in return is a modest donation to a charity of choice. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

I think it's accepted wisdom that the Midland Railway built some of the finest carriages ever seen. 

 

It's been my privilege to photograph some wonderful model examples down the years...........

 

 

These were built by Sid Stubbs in EM Gauge, I think using Ratio kits as a basis. I took the shot in 2015 (the memory fades!), and I believe they're now Tony Gee's property (if I'm wrong on this, perhaps Tony will advise). 

 

 

 

 

Dave Hunt (bless him!) donated these OO Gauge models he'd built for me to sell on behalf of CRUK. I think some of these carriages are derived from Ratio parts.

 

They're all now the property of Barry Ten (Al). 

 

I'll see what other MR coach images I have..............

 

Does anyone else have pictures of MR carriages, please?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Compound2632]

There are all sorts of problems of detail in using the Ratio Midland clerestories to represent these carriages in pre-Great War condition. They're pretty good for very late Midland / LMS condition, though a good many had swapped their 10 ft wheelbase bogies for 8 ft ones, the 10 ft bogies being used under the aforementioned arc-roof suburban carriages...

 

But I'm a Midland carriage obsessive who has never succeeded in completing one of these kits to his satisfaction.