Wright writes.....

[APOLLO]

My photos of van trains came in handy to determine the length of the old Great Central Railway bridge over the Leeds & Liverpool canal at Darlington Street goods depot Wigan. Photo dates from 1967 and the depot was used by a local mail order firm. The line to Wigan Central closed to passengers in Nov 64, just a portion from Hindley to Darlington street being used until about the end of 1967

 

The bridge was the length of a Black 5 & Tender from the safety valves back, and three vans !!!!

 

 

Some interesting views in LNER days

 

 

 

 

 

My model. Must add the gas lamp.

 

 

Space dictated the coal tippler (yet to be built) is on the wrong side of the bridge. Tony will recognize the loco. The "plate" in the centre of the bridge was a large heavy cat iron one proclaiming the name of the builder, The Dallam Forge Warrington. I remember the bridge being dismantled and scrapped, the plate lay on the canal towpath amongst the piles of cut girder. Way to big and heavy to cart two miles home - such a pity !!!!!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

[Darryl Tooley]

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The unfitted LMS Van in the last photo, I am not sure about the brake gear, it doesn't look right.

It isn't.  It has independent either side brake gear- note, for example, the V-hanger mounted on the outer face of the solebar.  It should have two-shoe morton.  The brake gear was what came with the kit originally - you can tell its one of the earlier kits by its battleship brakeblocks.  Later, Ratio substituted the same RCH 17'6 underframe as they used on their GWR vans, which was altogether nearer the mark.

 

The two ex-LNER vans next to it have the off-centre V-hanger of fitted stock.

 

D

[St Enodoc]

42 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

What is it about some model railway show punters? There must be many stories to tell out there.......................

Oh yes...

[Northmoor]

40 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I was exhibiting (demonstrating) at one Nottingham show a few years back, when a complete stranger came up to me and asked 'I believe you get spares from DJH and also complete kits at trade. Is this true? If so, I'd like (I can't remember what his list was), and I'll pay you as soon as they're delivered'. He must have been surprised at my aghast look of astonishment (or are all aghast looks astonishing?), and even more surprised when I responded by saying 'My relationship with DJH is none of your business'. 'But, that's not fair!' Why should you enjoy special privileges?'. Again, I said 'It's none of your business', but qualified it by asking him a few questions.... 'Do you test-build for DJH? Do you assist in the design/development of new kits for the firm? Do you build the prototypes of any new kits (in 4mm) and write the instructions? Do you photograph 90% of the pictures for the firm's catalogue, and provide pictures for advertisements in the model press?'. He had no answer, but suggested he might complain to the exhibition manager (Ian Trivett, sadly now deceased) that I was being rude to him. Rude to him? I hadn't even started!

 

What is it about some model railway show punters? There must be many stories to tell out there.......................

 

Apologies to all readers of this thread who are wondering what that almighty thump was a couple of minutes ago.  It was probably the sound of my jaw hitting the floor.

Honestly, the brass neck of some people..... 

[jwealleans]

Now then, Tony, the reason for my having Mixed Traffic was that it has a whole chapter where the author rode on 266 Down and talked at some length about the working.  It dates from 1937 so not everything may still be valid, but I'll offer it up as a start and maybe those more familiar with post war working can comment.

 

Firstly, he's very specific that there's no meat or fish - they have their own dedicated workings.   I can see at least one meat van in there.

 

He also narrates the train being booked to stop at Sandy and pick up perishables (2 vanfits and an Ofit on the date he accompanied it).  My intention of having the train headed by a string of conflats is therefore likely to be in error for Grantham as the vehicles were added at the head.   That said, he also mentioned that on the date he rode it the train was in four parts and his was the only one booked to stop, so you have leeway.   Photos of the train in the 1930s often have a cut of containers leading, which seems to have been an accident of marshalling at KX Goods.

 

Again in the 1930s, the presence of a CCT was noteworthy - it was an ex-NER 4 wheeler of the type Roger Chivers used to do, sometimes a pair of them.  I have no idea what they were transporting.   Were CCTs more common in the train by the late 1950s?

 

Containers we've mentioned.   I'll let those with better eyesight comment on brake gear.

 

[Headstock]

54 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

Things will be sorted, and I did request constructive criticism.................... 

 

'Following up on Jonathan's perceptive strike at your pipe wagon and it's dangerous load.'

 

Please take the above as constructive criticism......... 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Morning Tony,

 

A mere trifle, it wouldn't kill any railwaymen.

[Erichill16]

Tony,

The story of your A2 puts my refurbishment of the J10 into perspective. Just to keep everyone informed I’m  having a nightmare with the tender. I’ve dropped it on a concrete floor and guess where it landed, yes, the back corner where the flaring is. Grrrrrrrr!!!

Regards Robert.

[Tony Wright]

38 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tony,

 

A mere trifle, it wouldn't kill any railwaymen.

Afternoon Andrew,

 

But there are only plastic or white metal little railwaymen on LB. Rather difficult to kill? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

43 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tony,

 

A mere trifle, it wouldn't kill any railwaymen.

Afternoon Andrew,

 

But there are only plastic or white metal little railwaymen on LB. Rather difficult to kill? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

I have no idea how this post appeared twice........ 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add a point

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Now then, Tony, the reason for my having Mixed Traffic was that it has a whole chapter where the author rode on 266 Down and talked at some length about the working.  It dates from 1937 so not everything may still be valid, but I'll offer it up as a start and maybe those more familiar with post war working can comment.

 

Firstly, he's very specific that there's no meat or fish - they have their own dedicated workings.   I can see at least one meat van in there.

 

He also narrates the train being booked to stop at Sandy and pick up perishables (2 vanfits and an Ofit on the date he accompanied it).  My intention of having the train headed by a string of conflats is therefore likely to be in error for Grantham as the vehicles were added at the head.   That said, he also mentioned that on the date he rode it the train was in four parts and his was the only one booked to stop, so you have leeway.   Photos of the train in the 1930s often have a cut of containers leading, which seems to have been an accident of marshalling at KX Goods.

 

Again in the 1930s, the presence of a CCT was noteworthy - it was an ex-NER 4 wheeler of the type Roger Chivers used to do, sometimes a pair of them.  I have no idea what they were transporting.   Were CCTs more common in the train by the late 1950s?

 

Containers we've mentioned.   I'll let those with better eyesight comment on brake gear.

 

Good afternoon Jonathan,

 

I put the CCT in the train based on a Keith Pirt picture (taken at Gamston) in one of my books. Another KRP picture also shows a bogie van in the train. 

 

As for directives stating what might (or might not) be in a train, I remain 'flexible'. 

 

Over at Gilbert Barnatt's prior to lockdown, we looked at a picture of Down 'The Flying Scotsman', taken from Crescent Bridge. Clearly, there was a full Kitchen Car in the set (never noted in the BR CW books), and a BG (which, at the time, should not have been in the consist). A one off? Who knows?

 

Clearly, I have work to do on my freight rakes, even if it's just weeding out incorrect vehicles. That said, even though I've had many 'experts' visit Little Bytham over the years, not one has picked out any of the anomalies noted on here of late. If nothing else, it proves how 'forensic' the static camera is. When 40-50 wagons go swinging by at a scale 60, it is very difficult to notice. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

I've met people with the full spectrum of social skills at exhibitions, ranging from some of the nicest you could meet to utter berks who should never be allowed out without supervision.

 

I've mentioned this before but there was the chap who, commenting on my SNCF-themed layout, said he "can't stand the French" and then expected me to continue having some sort

of civil conversation. My wife's French but I think I'd have taken exception regardless.

 

 

[James Fitzjames]

16 hours ago, stewartingram said:

One thing nobody has mentioned about railways & the past, is that when we went on a train, it was a journey - in other words an experience. Everything about the railway was behind a fence, and (generally I suppose) we didn't cross that fence except for a journey. We watched trains the other side of the fence (or went through it to a platform). We knew that to travel on it was that journey.

When we did go on a journey, it was wholly organised, unlike today where everything is (basically) routine. 

We had to get to the station - a mini journey in its own right. Then we had to buy the ticket from a ticket office, where the tickets were date stamped in a machine before being handed to us. We showed them at the barrier., waited on the platform, observing other trains and shunting before our train arrived. Not just a simple push button to open a door then, but handle to turn and pull the door open, closing it behind you, not too easy as you probably had to open a window first. Then down the corridor, looking for a seat, Meanwhile another procedure was evolving on the platform, with parcels being unloaded and more put on. Then any open doors were slammed shut, quite a cacophony of noise.

The guard blowing his whistle, waving his flag, the engine driver sounding the whistle in return before we finally start to move. The noise of the engine pulling us, the wheels on the joints...

During the journey we would be passing other trains, stations with more movements going on with shunting, much to see. Lineside industries too. And those telegraph wire, sagging between the poles, with steam and smoke obscuring the view at times...I could go on.

So much simpler now. A ticket pre-booked on line, enter the station (possibly no barrier), one push of a button to open the doors. No need to close them, automatic or driver operates. No parcels activity, guards, little lineside activity, (but plenty of greenery & graffiti), no small station, or shunting. So much has been simplified to maximise efficiency....

 

Stewart

The journey was exciting to a wee'un as well. First memory of such was a 9f (dad said it was 'Evening Star, son', but I could see it was black somehow). A monstrous, malevolent-looking beastie, hissing steam from several places, it was for all the world like a brooding dragon, but apprehension was mollified by the humanity within: what must have been the fireman, head poked out of window with a reassuring fag 'on'...

Edited June 7, 2020 by James Fitzjames
Errant comma

[Erichill16]

Sorry chaps, suffering from brain fade. 
What temperature do I need to set my soldering iron at for white me5al and Carr’s red label solder?

thanks 

Robert

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Jonathan,

 

I put the CCT in the train based on a Keith Pirt picture (taken at Gamston) in one of my books. Another KRP picture also shows a bogie van in the train. 

 

As for directives stating what might (or might not) be in a train, I remain 'flexible'. 

 

Over at Gilbert Barnatt's prior to lockdown, we looked at a picture of Down 'The Flying Scotsman', taken from Crescent Bridge. Clearly, there was a full Kitchen Car in the set (never noted in the BR CW books), and a BG (which, at the time, should not have been in the consist). A one off? Who knows?

 

Clearly, I have work to do on my freight rakes, even if it's just weeding out incorrect vehicles. That said, even though I've had many 'experts' visit Little Bytham over the years, not one has picked out any of the anomalies noted on here of late. If nothing else, it proves how 'forensic' the static camera is. When 40-50 wagons go swinging by at a scale 60, it is very difficult to notice. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I have, I pointed out the Vanwides on one my visits and the bauxite livery tube wagons that were in the workshop at the time.

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I have, I pointed out the Vanwides on one my visits and the bauxite livery tube wagons that were in the workshop at the time.

Your memory is better than mine, Clive. Though I have repainted the tube wagons (based on a colour photo). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

14 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

Sorry chaps, suffering from brain fade. 
What temperature do I need to set my soldering iron at for white me5al and Carr’s red label solder?

thanks 

Robert

This could be a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'. 

 

The iron temperature is dependent on the size of the white metal pieces to be joined. For, say, boilers or the main parts of tenders, I'll crank it up to 300 degrees, going in and out very quickly. In less 'loony' hands, this could result in meltdown! 

 

Smaller pieces need a far lower temperature. 

 

Whatever you do, don't set the iron at 70 degrees (which is the solder's melting point) - all you'll do is warm up the metal! 

 

Normally, for most white metal soldering, I'll have the iron at between 200 and 250 degrees, but the risk of producing a white metal blob is ever present! 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grob1234]

Incidentally, the lowest  temperature I can set on my Antex is 180c.

 

Like Tony, I prefer to solder hotter but quicker.

 

For brass, I tend to use 300-360 ish but somtimes higher for larger bits or where I'm using 179c solder for small bits.

 

Whitemetal for me is between 180 and 250. I've not yet gone as far as Tony and used 300c on whitemetal, but being as impatient as I am, I'm sure I will sooner rather than later!

[Wingman Mothergoose]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

This could be a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'. 

 

The iron temperature is dependent on the size of the white metal pieces to be joined. For, say, boilers or the main parts of tenders, I'll crank it up to 300 degrees, going in and out very quickly. In less 'loony' hands, this could result in meltdown! 

 

Smaller pieces need a far lower temperature. 

 

Whatever you do, don't set the iron at 70 degrees (which is the solder's melting point) - all you'll do is warm up the metal! 

 

Normally, for most white metal soldering, I'll have the iron at between 200 and 250 degrees, but the risk of producing a white metal blob is ever present! 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I currently use a Gaugemaster GM661 temperature controlled soldering iron. There are no temperature markings on the control knob, just colours from yellow through to red. It apparently has a range of 200-450 degrees, but stuffed if I know where to set it for different temp solders....

 

Chris G

 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Afternoon Andrew,

 

But there are only plastic or white metal little railwaymen on LB. Rather difficult to kill? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Afternoon Tony,

 

I would hope that the one stood on the platform, armed with a camera, would not be sideswiped by a stray pipe on the look out for a wagon.

[Headstock]

The bad weather is keeping me out of the garden again. No worries, another set of steel carriers have now exited the paint shop. A pairing of an LMS 20 ton and LNER 21 ton Double bolster wagons. I will have to start making up some couplings soon.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Erichill16 said:

Sorry chaps, suffering from brain fade. 
What temperature do I need to set my soldering iron at for white me5al and Carr’s red label solder?

thanks 

Robert

 

Most whitemetal used in kits and castings melts at around 200 degrees Centigrade. If your iron is set below that, you can usually solder it as if it is brass. I set my ERSA at 170 degrees and have tried to melt tiny whitemetal scrap bits with it and failed. I firmly believe that good soldering technique isn't about temperature, it is about heat. A big lump of metal needs more heat to get a good solder joint than a small one.

 

A 15W iron turned down to 170 degrees may not have enough heat to get a big whitemetal component hot enough to make a good joint. A 75W iron turned down to 170 degrees will do the job superbly without melting anything and without the need to rush in and out quickly. Unless you have plenty of experience and have practised, putting a blob of hot solder onto cold metal and taking the iron away before the metal has warmed up does not give a good strong joint. It gives a brittle weak one that may come apart when you don't want it to. You have to know just how long to leave the iron in to let the solder run without melting anything you don't want to and that comes with practice and experience. You learn to almost "feel" how long to leave the iron on the joint.

 

So just getting the temperature right may not be enough. You need the temperature and the power/wattage/heat to be there too. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The prohibition on use of Lowfits for containers was included in the BR20427 which gives all of the details in what can and cannot be used for different types. See section 4(b) for Lowfits.

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20427_Issue.pdf

 

The Barrowmore site also has the booklets on dealing with various items including overhanging long loads and use of wagon sheets.

 

I'm not sure if there any site where it is possible to see the GWR 1936 General Appendx but IIRC that shows lots of examples of how and how not load wagons. 

[Erichill16]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

This could be a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'. 

 

The iron temperature is dependent on the size of the white metal pieces to be joined. For, say, boilers or the main parts of tenders, I'll crank it up to 300 degrees, going in and out very quickly. In less 'loony' hands, this could result in meltdown! 

 

Smaller pieces need a far lower temperature. 

 

Whatever you do, don't set the iron at 70 degrees (which is the solder's melting point) - all you'll do is warm up the metal! 

 

Normally, for most white metal soldering, I'll have the iron at between 200 and 250 degrees, but the risk of producing a white metal blob is ever present! 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks, thats great info. Its the  coal rail extension on the tender I’m wanting to solder so quite delicate. Hopefully i’ll get it done tonight.

Regards Robert

 

[Erichill16]

24 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Most whitemetal used in kits and castings melts at around 200 degrees Centigrade. If your iron is set below that, you can usually solder it as if it is brass. I set my ERSA at 170 degrees and have tried to melt tiny whitemetal scrap bits with it and failed. I firmly believe that good soldering technique isn't about temperature, it is about heat. A big lump of metal needs more heat to get a good solder joint than a small one.

 

A 15W iron turned down to 170 degrees may not have enough heat to get a big whitemetal component hot enough to make a good joint. A 75W iron turned down to 170 degrees will do the job superbly without melting anything and without the need to rush in and out quickly. Unless you have plenty of experience and have practised, putting a blob of hot solder onto cold metal and taking the iron away before the metal has warmed up does not give a good strong joint. It gives a brittle weak one that may come apart when you don't want it to. You have to know just how long to leave the iron in to let the solder run without melting anything you don't want to and that comes with practice and experience. You learn to almost "feel" how long to leave the iron on the joint.

 

So just getting the temperature right may not be enough. You need the temperature and the power/wattage/heat to be there too. 

Thanks for your help. Ive build about 8 white metal kits but some time ago. Im just a bit rusty though so glad of your advice. As after 30 years ive got the loco running sweetly i dont want to spoil the body now. I think the tender rails im re-attaching were originally glued on. Solder will make a much more robust joint.

Regards Robert

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Tony,

 

I would hope that the one stood on the platform, armed with a camera, would not be sideswiped by a stray pipe on the look out for a wagon.

Afternoon Andrew,

 

I would hope that the one standing on the platform..........................

 

30-all!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.