Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

The bad weather is keeping me out of the garden again. No worries, another set of steel carriers have now exited the paint shop. A pairing of an LMS 20 ton and LNER 21 ton Double bolster wagons. I will have to start making up some couplings soon.

Splendid work!

[jamie92208]

53 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

Thanks for your help. Ive build about 8 white metal kits but some time ago. Im just a bit rusty though so glad of your advice. As after 30 years ive got the loco running sweetly i dont want to spoil the body now. I think the tender rails im re-attaching were originally glued on. Solder will make a much more robust joint.

Regards Robert

 

 

Eric, if you can, it might be worth melting a bit of low melt onto the main tender side first, then put the coal rails against it, dousecwith flux then touch the blob of low melt with the iron. As soon as the low melt, liquifies, take the iron away and push the coal rail support into the blob. The good thing us that the low melt doesn't go off very quickly. I'm a philistine and just use a standard Weller 60w iron andvusevthe quick in and out technique dedcribed above. Good luck.

 

Jamie

[Headstock]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Afternoon Andrew,

 

I would hope that the one standing on the platform..........................

 

30-all!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Stooding on the platform.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Erichill16 said:

Thanks for your help. Ive build about 8 white metal kits but some time ago. Im just a bit rusty though so glad of your advice. As after 30 years ive got the loco running sweetly i dont want to spoil the body now. I think the tender rails im re-attaching were originally glued on. Solder will make a much more robust joint.

Regards Robert

 

 

 

Any old glue still around the joint will firstly make soldering difficult and secondly may give off some very unpleasant fumes if heated. So it is well worth doing a thorough cleaning job first. If it is just a butt joint, you can make it much stronger by reinforcing it with a thin strip of brass or nickel silver, if you have some from a bit of scrap etch or suchlike. Lowmelt solder does often  make a brittle and not very strong joint anyway and any help you can give it is worthwhile.

Edited June 7, 2020 by t-b-g
Autocorrect beat me

[Barry Ten]

May I ask if the grub screws supplied by DJH, Comet, Branchlines etc are a standard type? I've been robbing Peter to pay Paul for too long now, scrounging

a grub screw from the next-but-one project to replace the one that's just pinged into oblivion. I've learned the hard way to have an over-supply of crank pin

washers, Romford nuts and so on, but not (yet) grub screws.

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Erichill16 said:

Thanks, thats great info. Its the  coal rail extension on the tender I’m wanting to solder so quite delicate. Hopefully i’ll get it done tonight.

Regards Robert

 

Good evening Robert,

 

I should have mentioned (which Tony Gee did - thanks TBG), the importance of the iron's wattage as well. I use nothing less than a 50 Watt iron, set to the temperatures I mentioned earlier. A higher-wattage iron will mean greater powers of recovery and heat transference.

 

A few other tips, if I may?

 

When soldering two pieces of white metal together (if they're different sizes), always 'rest' the iron on the larger piece. That way there's less of a chance of melting a casting. When soldering white metal to brass/nickel silver, always rest the iron on the 'hard' metal - you certainly won't melt that. 

 

Cut little 'chips' of solder rather than always carrying the solder to the joint on the iron. Place these little chips on the joint to be made, flood (and I mean flood!) the joint with flux, and just touch the iron on the chips, without actually touching the parent metal. Capillary action will naturally draw the molten solder into the joint. 

 

Where possible, solder on the inside of a joint, using gravity to assist. To help with this, flood the outside of the joint with flux as well. 

 

Whilst doing all this, don't breath!

 

A few examples.............

 

 

A white metal-to-white metal joint on a DJH A2/3, fixing the firebox to the footplate. The staining is flux, and the joint still has to be cleaned up. 

 

 

Further progress (on the other side) with the joint now cleaned up. 

 

The joint between the firebox and the boiler is also soldered. No glue will form both a bond and filler as effectively as this. 

 

 

And more done...........................

 

 

Complete.

 

This was the model I built to loan to Hornby in assisting the firm with the development of its RTR A2/3. 

 

The only things not soldered together on this model are the dome, the smokebox door and the bottoms of the outside steam pipes. With only external-soldering possible in these locations, I considered glue (epoxy) to be easier to clean off after it had cured.

 

 

I also helped Hornby with the development of its RTR A2/2. A coincidence separated by 20 years; I helped DJH with the development of its Thompson Pacific kits prior to the turn of the century.

 

Poacher turned gamekeeper? 

 

 

A detail of an earlier DJH A2/3 build of mine. The conjunction of the footplate/firebox/cab has resulted in a small solder fillet being visible. 

 

In my defence, this image makes the distance from the rail to the cab roof seven inches! 

 

 

And, at 'normal' viewing distances, who can see?. 

 

The painting is Ian Rathbone's work. 

 

If I can offer any advice to kit-builders in metal, it's this.......................... Soldering is imperative! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

May I ask if the grub screws supplied by DJH, Comet, Branchlines etc are a standard type? I've been robbing Peter to pay Paul for too long now, scrounging

a grub screw from the next-but-one project to replace the one that's just pinged into oblivion. I've learned the hard way to have an over-supply of crank pin

washers, Romford nuts and so on, but not (yet) grub screws.

Al,

 

Standard Romford/Markits grubscrews fit the DJH gear wheels perfectly (and Comet and Branchlines - Markits make the gears/worms for Comet). And, because they're longer than the DJH ones,  they are more-efficient.

 

I'm sure Mark Arscott at Markits will sell them to you as separate items (he has to me), but make sure any order is more than £10.00. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Barry Ten]

Just now, Tony Wright said:

Al,

 

Standard Romford/Markits grubscrews fit the DJH gear wheels perfectly (and Comet and Branchlines - Markits make the gears/worms for Comet). And, because they're longer than the DJH ones are more-efficient.

 

I'm sure Mark Arscott at Markits will sell them to you as separate items (he has to me), but make sure any order is more than £10.00. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Thank you, Tony - your helpfulness is as always much appreciated.

 

I could probably sell back 10 pounds of grub screws from the ones lost between floorboards...

[ScRSG]

My lockdown project, a totally untypical Scottish Region loco, despite the name! As one of my group will inevitably point out, lamps yet to be fitted! A DJH kit obtained at a very reasonable price from ebay.

 

[Erichill16]

53 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Any old glue still around the joint will firstly make soldering difficult and secondly may give off some very unpleasant fumes if heated. So it is well worth doing a thorough cleaning job first. If it is just a butt joint, you can make it much stronger by reinforcing it with a thin strip of brass or nickel silver, if you have some from a bit of scrap etch or suchlike. Lowmelt solder does often  make a brittle and not very strong joint anyway and any help you can give it is worthwhile.

I’ve already cleaned the area I’ll be working on. The joint is between the tender side and a coal compartment extension piece. It’s about 30mm long by 6mm heigh but only very thin . I’m hoping to draw the solder along the length  of if.

regards Robert

 

[jwealleans]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I put the CCT in the train based on a Keith Pirt picture (taken at Gamston) in one of my books. Another KRP picture also shows a bogie van in the train. 

 

I had little doubt when writing that you'd have worked from photographs.   There's equally little doubt that in the 20 years between my 266 Down and yours both traffic and stock would have evolved.  It's a shame we have comparatively little evidence to work with to follow that evolution, when compared to the Carriage Working Notices we used so extensively on Grantham.

[Erichill16]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Eric, if you can, it might be worth melting a bit of low melt onto the main tender side first, then put the coal rails against it, dousecwith flux then touch the blob of low melt with the iron. As soon as the low melt, liquifies, take the iron away and push the coal rail support into the blob. The good thing us that the low melt doesn't go off very quickly. I'm a philistine and just use a standard Weller 60w iron andvusevthe quick in and out technique dedcribed above. Good luck.

 

Jamie

Thanks for your advice.

regards Robert (Eric)

[Willie Whizz]

On 06/06/2020 at 17:43, Barry Ten said:

Over the last couple of evenings, and this afternoon, I put together a basic chassis for this Fowler 2-6-4T:

 

 

Saw the picture before reading the text and thought:  "Hell's Teeth, that's one utterly OTT 'might-have-been' Dock Tank!"

 

Al

 

[Theakerr]

This may just be me, but when I was building Bronzino , I found that if I was generous with the low  melt solder the result was much better than when I tried to limit it as I would when soldering electrical bits.

[Chuffer Davies]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

When soldering two pieces of white metal together (if they're different sizes), always 'rest' the iron on the larger piece. That way there's less of a chance of melting a casting. When soldering white metal to brass/nickel silver, always rest the iron on the 'hard' metal - you certainly won't melt that. 

 

Cut little 'chips' of solder rather than always carrying the solder to the joint on the iron. Place these little chips on the joint to be made, flood (and I mean flood!) the joint with flux, and just touch the iron on the chips, without actually touching the parent metal. Capillary action will naturally draw the molten solder into the joint. 

 

Where possible, solder on the inside of a joint, using gravity to assist. To help with this, flood the outside of the joint with flux as well. 

 

Whilst doing all this, don't breath!

Hi Tony,

Sound advice indeed but despite your in-depth summation there was one case which I think needs further clarification.  I was taught that when soldering white metal to brass or n/silver using low melt solder (to protect the white metal) the hard metal should first be tinned with normal solder (145 etc..). Low melt solder does not attach well to brass etc. but will form a strong bond with a tinned surface.

 

The other point worth expanding on is the benefit of using a high wattage soldering iron.  The more powerful the iron the better its ability to maintain the temperature at the tip.  As soon as an iron touches the material to be soldered heat will be transferred.  The lower the power of the iron the more it will struggle to recover the temperature to that required to enable the solder to flow into a joint.  

 

Power is not the same as size..  I use a 75 watt temperature controlled iron but it is not physically large.  As a result I can use it to solder everything I need to on a 4mm model from small white metal components to large brass boilers and frames and everything in between.

Frank

[grob1234]

I find a 50w iron to be sufficient. I think I'd struggle with 25w. Sometimes 75w might be nice when the amount of material starts to get bulky and you start to feel the tip of the iron biting.

[Barry Ten]

The Fowler's dignity has been restored with front and rear trucks:

 

 

Running trials are now underway to iron out any issues in this basic chassis form before adding brakes, cylinders, etc.

 

Al

 

[Barry Ten]

I've found a 70 Watt gas iron to be incredibly useful for certain jobs, not just where a bit more power is needed, but also taking care of minor jobs on the layout where  the normal soldering iron, base station and leads would get in the way. The only downside is that it burns butane at quite a high rate if it's just sitting there keeping warm, so it's best for short jobs.

 

With my normal Weller iron that I use for most jobs, I dial it up to 6, the maximum, for all normal soldering. I've found 4 to be fine for white metal. Once or twice I've got away with forgetting to dial it down, so it's not always the case that you'll instantly melt all your castings. However II have also gone right through the side of a cab plate, so beware!

[t-b-g]

If we are bragging abut the size of our tools, mine is a 150W ERSA. The actual handle and the tip are smaller than an Antex 25W but it doesn't half kick out some heat.

 

I can easily laminate three layers of 18thou brass on a 7mm smokebox and the heat is such that I cannot hold the boiler comfortably at the cab end when soldering at the smokebox. Yet it will put the tiniest whitemetal detail on when turned down to 170 degrees.

 

Not cheap but with the amount of soldering I do, I took a chance on splashing out on what some very good people had recommended and I wouldn't want to use anything else again. It has transformed my soldering ability to the point where I can't remember the last time I struggled to make a good soldered joint.

 

I have seen the advice on tinning brass before soldering whitemetal to it and it seems to make sense. I tried it but couldn't get on with the technique. I found the the two solders could melt and flow together making a very brittle joint. Using 12% phosphoric acid flux, I now solder whitemetal straight to the brass using 145 degree solder. Much stronger than 70 or 90 degree and again, with the iron at 170 degrees there is plenty of heat to melt the solder but not enough temperature to melt the whitemetal.

 

As with all such things, many people get good results using different methods and I would only recommend that people try different ways until they find one that works for them and then stay with it.   

Edited June 7, 2020 by t-b-g

[Tony Wright]

43 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

Sound advice indeed but despite your in-depth summation there was one case which I think needs further clarification.  I was taught that when soldering white metal to brass or n/silver using low melt solder (to protect the white metal) the hard metal should first be tinned with normal solder (145 etc..). Low melt solder does not attach well to brass etc. but will form a strong bond with a tinned surface.

 

The other point worth expanding on is the benefit of using a high wattage soldering iron.  The more powerful the iron the better its ability to maintain the temperature at the tip.  As soon as an iron touches the material to be soldered heat will be transferred.  The lower the power of the iron the more it will struggle to recover the temperature to that required to enable the solder to flow into a joint.  

 

Power is not the same as size..  I use a 75 watt temperature controlled iron but it is not physically large.  As a result I can use it to solder everything I need to on a 4mm model from small white metal components to large brass boilers and frames and everything in between.

Frank

Thanks Frank,

 

I should have mentioned that the brass/nickel silver should be tinned with 145 degree solder before attaching white metal to it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jamie92208]

I tin brass with normal 220 degree solder then if possible apply the iron to the back of the brass. Then melt my chip of low melt into it, get it liquid then apply the WM casting. It works very well.

 

Jamie

[Erichill16]

Thanks for all the advice, 

Regards ROBERT

[ScRSG]

Is it not the case that 100 degree solder will adhere strongly to both brass and white metal, obviating the need to tin the brass first?

[Jack P]

A couple of pages back Tony asked about lockdown projects. This isn't so much a lockdown project specifically, but thanks to the flexible working afforded to me because of the lockdown, I was able to 'finish' my 2 year + project. 

 

I recognised early on that the butchered parts for the motion bracket (they came this way when I purchased the kit from ebay) and associated complexity to build the motion was a bit beyond my abilities at the time, being my first kitbuilt loco. Instead of rendering this a static model, or resigning it to a box for decades it went off to @DLT who (not without some head scratching) built the motion and associated parts, along with adding pickups and getting the loco running under its own power (he also kindly included some drain-cocks which I ended up using). My immense thanks to Dave for all his help. I'm certainly a bit more confident now, and while I maybe wouldn't be able to achieve that same result (yet), i'll certainly be building the motion for my future projects! 

 

She's a bit of a mixed-media kit, using a Hornby tender, and bits from the spares box from various RTR models (chimney, sanding gear, cab details among others), possibly not the typical way to build a kit, but it's the way I built it.  Here she is, Southern N15x 2331 'Beattie' in 1947 condition.

 

 

Since taking these photos the fire iron bracket in the tender, and vac pipe on the rear have been attached. 

 

 

She's not perfect by any means, and there are things I would change if I was to build this again - BUT, I had an absolute blast researching, building and finishing her, I'm unashamedly proud of the finished product. Plus i've learnt so much, and it's cemented kit-building as a staple for me.  

[polybear]

20 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

He had no answer, but suggested he might complain to the exhibition manager (Ian Trivett, sadly now deceased) that I was being rude to him. Rude to him? I hadn't even started!

 

What is it about some model railway show punters? There must be many stories to tell out there.......................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I recall being at an Exhibition (early to mid 2000's, at a guess) where a fight broke out between (I think) a Trader (not one I'm familiar with) and a visitor - proper fist stuff too.  It was all over in a few seconds, and no harm done.  I've no idea what it was about, though the Trader apologised to (I assume) one of the organisers and then walked out of the hall, perhaps to cool off.  The visitor was unhurt, and didn't want to take it further.  And the shady, seedy, "watch your back" part of the country this took place in?  Worthing......

 

I can confirm that Tony wasn't involved though.....