Wright writes.....

[lee74clarke]

Is that Kelly & Oddball parked on the suspension bridge in that M4?

[60027Merlin]

Hi Eric

 

Do you mind me asking whose figures are you using posed in the photo of A3 60087.

 

Regards

 

David

 

David

 

They are Bachmann figures from their loco crew sets.

 

Eric

[Black Marlin]

Is that Kelly & Oddball parked on the suspension bridge in that M4?

 

That's them, sitting atop the 'negative waves'...

[Tony Wright]

Today has seen the making of a follow-up DVD on Little Bytham. My most grateful thanks to Tom Foster and Simon Roberts for their unstinting hard work and tolerance. Tolerance of my ineptitude and outbursts of temper! But, we got the job done. Tom is to edit it and post it on the interwebby thingy (totally beyond me).

 

Tom also brought the finished B16/2 which featured last month on this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

As is probably known, I have an ambivalence towards having models made for me, and I admit to being a hypocrite for once being a professional loco-builder. In fairness, this model was not made for me, it was built originally from a PDK kit for Tom by Mike Edge; to which Mike added considerably more refinements and details. It was painted and lettered in very early BR livery (BR number, but LNER on the tender, and no lining). 

 

It came my way and I repainted it, lined, numbered and lettered it and Tom has weathered it. 

 

Now, when you've got one of the best builders and one of the best at weathering, the results should be good. I hope you'll agree they are. This is one of the most beautifully-natural locomotives I have ever seen. Granted, there was a cost incurred (the best builders deserve a fair remuneration), but it seems so worthwhile to me. I very much doubt if an RTR version of any B16 will ever appear, so, if you want one, this is the way to go in my view. I could have built it (though I doubt if it would be as refined as Mike's work). Still, there's some of me in it and much of Tom Foster. To me that's so much more personal than just commissioning something, good though it might be; but that's just my view. 

 

It was going to be put up for sale, but Tom has decided to keep it. And, this is the best bit - it's on loan to Little Bytham. I have the best of all worlds. That's what working together with a group of great mates gives you. I'm a lucky guy! 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Tony Wright

[Class O]

A long time favourite of my Dads and mine, he was a fitter 1937 >67 and thought them better/stronger than B1s

[jrg1]

I am continually very impressed with the weathering, especially on the locomotives-weathering either looks perfect, odd or awful, and these locomotives just look completely natural.  More please!

[Tony Wright]

I am continually very impressed with the weathering, especially on the locomotives-weathering either looks perfect, odd or awful, and these locomotives just look completely natural.  More please!

Weathering can make or break a model in my view. I'm fortunate in that I've got Tom Foster as part of the 'Bytham' team, and we mutually assist each other in our modelling. I can weather items myself, but he takes the craft to a very high level. 

 

I suppose Martyn Welch (through his book) was amongst the first to really bring out how important the 'distressing' of models, particularly locos and rolling stock, is for realism. I'm also very fortunate that I have some items weathered by Tim Shackleton, another master of the craft. Other exceptional exponents of the craft whose work I've seen more recently include Tim Easter and Barry Oliver. I also have some locos weathered by Tony Geary; an exceptionally- talented guy. Friend Rob Davey also has a deft touch with weathering - most of my wagons look most realistic because of his handiwork. 

 

I remain a little unsure about 'proprietary' weathering - on occasions it just looks as if dirty thinners have been squirted at models. Some firms offer it as a service - I've seen some very good and some, perhaps, less convincing examples. All of these have a cost implication, of course. My advice, for what it's worth, is for folk to have a go themselves. Just find a redundant/old model body and practise techniques - air-brush, dry-brush, powders, inks, etc. Certainly, combinations of whatever takes your fancy. If it gets messed up, it doesn't matter. As mentioned, I'm lucky to have some excellent examples of weathering provided by friends (largely through mutual assistance) and every loco and item of rolling stock I own carries some signs of wear. I've always asked Ian Rathbone to weather locos he's painted for me - not to obliteration; that would be absurd, but just to make them more 'natural'. Even ex-works locos (unless for exhibitions) didn't have shiny rods.

 

Some, of course, insist on no weathering on their collections. Indeed, weathered locos, no matter how beautifully done, make less at auctions than shiny ones. 

 

I'll post some more shots of various weathered items. Perhaps others might do the same. Thanks, in anticipation. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by Tony Wright

[micklner]

No B16 !! wait for the 2016/7 announcements !! who knows so much variation is appearing anything is possible. The NER must !! be the next company to be tackled !! plus a Bugatti Nose P2 and the Hush Hush ! all would sell.

 

Good news re the video.

[jrg1]

I have Martyn Welch's book, but if any of the above you mentioned would like to point us in the right direction via articles, books or how-to's, it would be much appreciated.

[Oldddudders]

I'm still in the no-weathering camp. As Tony says, there are some superb examples of weathering, and I do not seek to imply otherwise. They really replicate what we saw, and what is in photos.

 

But what they also do is remind us just what a filthy, grubby place the railway - particularly the steam railway - really was. If some of us model as a form of fantasy, then keeping our trains spotless is not much of an extension of that idea. Oddly, I am much more inclined to weather structures, where I feel it adds more value, and indeed charm.

 

Your mileage, as they say, will almost certainly vary!

[Tony Wright]

I'm still in the no-weathering camp. As Tony says, there are some superb examples of weathering, and I do not seek to imply otherwise. They really replicate what we saw, and what is in photos.

 

But what they also do is remind us just what a filthy, grubby place the railway - particularly the steam railway - really was. If some of us model as a form of fantasy, then keeping our trains spotless is not much of an extension of that idea. Oddly, I am much more inclined to weather structures, where I feel it adds more value, and indeed charm.

 

Your mileage, as they say, will almost certainly vary!

Thanks Ian,

 

I should have mentioned that I attempt to weather structures/buildings as well, particularly where they get soot-staining. 

 

Oddly, I like to be reminded of what a filthy, grubby place the steam railway used to be. Memories of returning home dishevelled and dirty after some marathon shed-bash are particularly poignant - the notebook besmirched and crumpled, but full of priceless cops. I've written of this before, but years ago I was trainspotting on Babworth bridge (just north of Retford) for a few minutes after a day's outing in the Dukeries, and standing near Babworth 'box, waiting for the road, was one of the filthiest 'Austerities' I have ever seen. It was heroically covered in lime scale, rust, soot, dents and any other dirtying substance. A relatively clean A1 went past, then a brand-new EE Type 4. I paid little attention to the decrepit 'Dub D', until it set off after the northbound diesel. Then, it became evident which one it was - VULCAN, the one namer in the class. My brother and I whooped with joy. When I made a model of her, she could only be covered in filth - that's just how I remember her.

 

Conversely, the appeal of a recently ex-works loco from Crewe or Doncaster also had to be replicated. When I saw DWIGHT D EISENHOWER and JOHN BUNYAN outside the paint shop at the Plant in August 1958, when I modified/made models of these two I asked Ian Rathbone to just dust over the slightest touch weathering. On that day, they'd yet to be steamed but for model service on LB some soot would already have been deposited on the top of the boiler. I had, of course, painted the motion dark brown/grey. 

 

As I've said many times, I make models of what I remember seeing; most of which were dirty. 

[coachmann]

Matt smokebox, cab roof and Tender top surfaces was about the extent of "weathering" most pro painters carried out in 'olden days - me included. It sold. Yet back in 1962 when I started spraying, I painted all my own locos matt black to more or less replicate what I saw trackside. The thing is, an ex works loco looks natural on display and yet looks unnatural on a scenic layout, as anyone who remembers the steam era would expect. Of all the locos we older guys saw when trackside, I wonder how many ex-works locos we saw. The only one that sticks in my mind was an Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 ambling past Bolton MPD, and a green whatever-it-was drifting into Abergele with the Royal Train in 1952 when either Princess Elizabeth or Queen Liz was touring the country visiting her new subjects. It was the coaches that caught my eye with carved lions heads in gold on the headstocks.

 

When I took up layout building again a few years ago, my LMS and LNER loco collection grew so fast that I did little to them. But starting afresh with GWR locos, I have weathered and coaled each loco as it arrived, and the funny thing is, my GW collection is grimier than the previous collection ever was! It is mostly down to an aversion to brightly painted boiler bands and lining out, which I subdue as best I can short of a complete new paintjob. 

[The Stationmaster]

A long time favourite of my Dads and mine, he was a fitter 1937 >67 and thought them better/stronger than B1s

They were far more popular with many enginemen than B1s (especially rundown B1s ) and in my view they were far better looking, but that's a very personal opinion of course.  I do think they are probably the most overlooked 'large engine' as far as the r-t-r manufacturers are concerned and if things continue at their present pace of announcement their time must surely come although they have to be unlikely from the smaller commissioning concerns - so maybe a natural for Heljan if the big two don't get there first?

[APOLLO]

 

I find on most colour photos of prototype weathered locos you rarely see black - it always seems to be 50 shades of grey (to me anyway !!!!!!!!)

 

I weathered this Bachmann Dub-Dee with a mix of oil based matt black Wickes blackboard paint and wickes grey undercoat, thinned to a quite runny mix with turps substitute to a very dark grey. I didn't use an airbrush, sloshed the mix on with a sable brush and wiped off with a lint free cloth. When nearly dry I added the white stains on the boiler top etc with a small brush dipped in thinners followed by a light brush of a few shades of Carr's modelling powders here and there. I'll be honest and say I didn't dismantle the loco either !.

 

I used a couple of colour photos for reference from the excellent book "Steam on Shed" by John Stretton. Some really excellent shots in that book.

 

Never did see a clean Dub Dee. Not that I would do this to many more of my loco's.

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

I have Martyn Welch's book, but if any of the above you mentioned would like to point us in the right direction via articles, books or how-to's, it would be much appreciated.

Tim Shackleton writes regularly in Hornby Magazine on his techniques. He's also a regular tutor at Missenden Abbey. I was very fortunate as a co-tutor to have some of my models weathered by Tim (I think I bought him a pint or two). Others are less fortunate, so if you have a top weathering job done by one of the best, then there'll be a cost-implication. Tim is one of the best, as I hope the following pictures show. 

 

 

This is a pair of Bachmann Ivatt 4MTs, one of them for my M&GNR section. 

 

 

I'd done my usual mods to this Bachmann A1 (apart from renumbering it) and Tim's combination of weathering techniques really brings it to life, especially how the over-scale lining is toned down. 

 

 

This Hornby 'Castle' just oozes realism. 

 

 

As does this Ace O2/2 I built, or it does because of Mr Shackleton's perfect weathering. 

 

 

 

I also mentioned Tim Easter, another master of the craft. This B17 and D11 were weathering commissions for Gilbert Barnatt to run on Peterborough North. To me, these look much more realistic than 'pristine' locomotives. They just look 'real', just the way it really was. I think Tim Easter has written some articles for the model press. Perhaps he'd like to comment. 

 

I have examples of Martyn Welch's weathering, but they're all on transparency so I can't reproduce them here. 

 

Perhaps Barry will post examples of his splendid weathering because I've not photographed any as yet.

 

 

Another name (and another friend) I should have mentioned is John Houlden. As a result of horse-trading, he lightly weathered this J6 I built.

 

 

This is an example of one of the most natural-looking locomotives I have ever seen. It was painted by Ian Rathbone and weathered (I believe) by members of the 82G Group at Warley MRC. 

 

 

 

And two most-natural locomotives by Tony Geary. It is a privilege to have these now on Little Bytham. 

 

I understand how some would not wish to have anything but the most ex-works examples of locos and stock. But, for a 'real' impression of a working railway, they just 'don't work' for me. But, each to their own. 

 

Tom Foster also does weathering demonstrations at shows and is to have an article published on one of his locos in the Railway Modeller, for which I took some of the pictures.

 

I hope this helps. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by Tony Wright

[St Enodoc]

Others are less fortunate, so if you have a top weathering job done by one of the best, then there'll be a cost-implication.

Tony, I was lucky enough to have this rather ancient Cotswold kit (and a Nu-Cast 16xx of which I haven't got a photo to hand) weathered by the late Paul Fletcher when he was demonstrating at the 1981 Leeds exhibition. It represents one of the St Blazey engines used on china clay workings, yet interestingly I don't think Paul used any white paint at all!

[coachmann]

Try as I might to be constructive, the two Mucky Ducks, the A1 and the 'Castle' don't look right to me, but perhaps the pictures of the models are over exposed Tony? I never saw a grey engine in my life.

[The Stationmaster]

Try as I might to be constructive, the two Mucky Ducks, the A1 and the 'Castle' don't look right to me, but perhaps the pictures of the models are over exposed Tony? I never saw a grey engine in my life.

That is a very interesting point Coach.  In many respects 'everyday dirt' building up on steam engines did look grey in some light but I think that in reality it was far more complicated than that and of course there could be strong regional (not in the BR sense) influences in what went into the 'dirt'.  That apart lighting obviously made a difference as did the visual impact of surroundings and then we have the unavoidable problem of the film emulsion/white balance/monitor settings that we use when a subject is photographed and that image is subsequently seen on screen or in print.

 

Thus perhaps the 'Castle' doesn't look right because of the angle of view but to me the glaring issue with it is the cab side window but then how exactly do you capture that thin surface layer of dirt that could build up there during a turn?  The B17 looks to me more or less how I remember the cleaner versions of that class from that angle of view at Liverpool St very many years ago while the dirt pattern on the A1 looks right.  And I think that latter point is part of the way really good weathering can work - Tim Shackleton is very good at it and so is Time Easter - it's a matter of getting the right amount and texture of dirt in the right places and then the colour of it, provided it's reasonable of course, becomes of slightly lesser impact.

[Barry O]

Tony

 

many thanks for the mention.  From my side of the fence weathering is about "the eye of the beholder" - a lot of the "off the shelf" weathering I see seems to be based on locos in West Hartlepool Shed in 1967 (which I can remember) which had rust, limescale and very little paint all over - unloved and unwanted.

 

I saw Paul Fletcher working on locos and stock - he used a lot of techniques (including a wire brush in a modelling drill) to distress paintwork etc. Most of the people I do commissions for would have a duck fit if I did that on a loco painted and lined by Coach, Ian Rathbone or Graham Varley.

 

here are a few shots of different locos weathered recently - I need Tony to do some photographs as my photography skills are carp!

 

First up a Judith Edge ex GC 4-4-0 built by Mike

 

 

and a "loco shed cleaned " Duchess (painted by Coach a long time ago...

 

 

it looks too clean but it does have dirt

 

and a B16 - I think this is a PDK kit

 

A V2

 

 

and a recent addition - a Judith Edge Kitson Tank

 

 

 

I use colour photographs (either from my own book collection or from clients photographs (as in the Kitson Tank) but I am wary as reds in particular seem to vary from film type to film type.

 

 

and come and have a go at Warley where I will be getting other people to weather stock - either their own of on my test pieces.

Baz

Edited September 20, 2015 by Barry O

[Tony Wright]

Try as I might to be constructive, the two Mucky Ducks, the A1 and the 'Castle' don't look right to me, but perhaps the pictures of the models are over exposed Tony? I never saw a grey engine in my life.

Your views are always constructive, Larry,

 

Your point about exposure is very relevant (though the shots aren't over-exposed), because in order to get publication-clarity and indefinite depth of field (F45), I needed to give the models a fair bit of light. This brings out all the detail, though artificial light can never replicate natural light. 

 

Never saw a grey engine? Like black, what do we mean by grey? I've just looked through Keith Pirt's Eastern & North Eastern Region Volume 2 - pages 34 and 35, 44, 47, 48, 49 and so on; though there are other shades/tints on the locos illustrated, the predominant colour is grey. I know all about film emulsions and so on, but it's grey as far as I'm concerned. If you can, have a look at page 16 in the same volume. Though the loco is clearly in weathering black, large parts of it are grey. 

[landscapes]

David

 

They are Bachmann figures from their loco crew sets.

 

Eric

Many thanks Eric.

 

David

[t-b-g]

I am too young to remember "proper" steam. My only recollections on BR are of "West Country" pacifics at Winchester in 1967 in very run down condition, although I do have memories of EAR articulated locos at Mombassa in something like 1966.

 

Anybody younger than me will only know what steam locos looked like from photographs and anybody remembering what they looked like in say, the 1950s, has to be even older than me!

 

I sometimes wonder if our views of levels of weathering are based on the colour photos that we see, which were really not very common until the 1960s. We also have to accept that there is no way of telling at this stage what spread of differences in weathering there were at any particular time and place, unless somebody recorded every loco on every train. there is just a chance that photographers didn't bother with "yet another grubby Black 5 or B1" and waited for the A3 or the Duchess to come along before they used their precious film.

 

I have sensed a trend amongst weatherers to either go for a type of finish they recall, or rely on whatever colour photos are available.

 

As most of these memories and photos are likely to be from the 1960s, they represent the end of steam, when locos were being run down and withdrawn and when many were in a rather grubby external condition.

 

Now, if you go back just 5 years, to say 1957/8 and look at the admittedly smaller sample of photos, there is a significant change over that short period of time. Many more locos gave the impression of having been given some cleaning attention and the rusted, water streaked wreck was far less common than it was in 1965.

 

To me, having 1965 weathering on locos that are running on a 1957 layout is just about as bad as having them painted the wrong colour. So when I see a 1950s layout with 1960s weathering, it just doesn't "gel" with me.

 

When somebody gets it just right (as Barry has done on that superbly finished Duchess and that long boiler industrial and especially on that almost real looking Southern pacific) it can really lift a model loco to another level. On the other hand, sometimes an overall wash/spray of dead even light grey does the opposite and can spoil an otherwise excellent model.

 

The other thing is that weathering is really difficult to photograph well. So it may be the case that what looks not so clever in a photo looks great in real life.

 

Tony

Edited September 20, 2015 by t-b-g

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Of all the locos we older guys saw when trackside, I wonder how many ex-works locos we saw...

 By happy coincidence the oldest (just short of a ton!) member of the family with the railway bug was on the layout with me this morning, and reminded me that the only clean loco he saw growing up in Sheffield was an LNER pacific on a Pullman car special on the ex-GCR line, shortly before he was called up on the outbreak of war in Europe. He had once at much the same time seen an LMS 5XP which had been given enough of a cabside wipe to reveal the red paint beneath the filth, but never recalls seeing an all over red engine anywhere near Sheffield.

 

The journey South to the Medway in response to his call-up - for he was a Navy reservist - was a revelation, for while the freight engines were as grubby as ever on the LNER, there were mighty green locomotives surging along the ex-GN main line, a very unfamiliar sight to a Sheffield native. Scotland apparently had good things to offer in the 30s ; the family holidayed on the West Coast, and engines and carriages were often quite shiny by the time Fort William was approached from the South.

[davidw]

Hope you don't mind me adding these to the mix:

 

 

 

and A4 

 

[Tony Wright]

I am too young to remember "proper" steam. My only recollections on BR are of "West Country" pacifics at Winchester in 1967 in very run down condition, although I do have memories of EAR articulated locos at Mombassa in something like 1966.

 

Anybody younger than me will only know what steam locos looked like from photographs and anybody remembering what they looked like in say, the 1950s, has to be even older than me!

 

I sometimes wonder if our views of levels of weathering are based on the colour photos that we see, which were really not very common until the 1960s. We also have to accept that there is no way of telling at this stage what spread of differences in weathering there were at any particular time and place, unless somebody recorded every loco on every train. there is just a chance that photographers didn't bother with "yet another grubby Black 5 or B1" and waited for the A3 or the Duchess to come along before they used their precious film.

 

I have sensed a trend amongst weatherers to either go for a type of finish they recall, or rely on whatever colour photos are available.

 

As most of these memories and photos are likely to be from the 1960s, they represent the end of steam, when locos were being run down and withdrawn and when many were in a rather grubby external condition.

 

Now, if you go back just 5 years, to say 1957/8 and look at the admittedly smaller sample of photos, there is a significant change over that short period of time. Many more locos gave the impression of having been given some cleaning attention and the rusted, water streaked wreck was far less common than it was in 1965.

 

To me, having 1965 weathering on locos that are running on a 1957 layout is just about as bad as having them painted the wrong colour. So when I see a 1950s layout with 1960s weathering, it just doesn't "gel" with me.

 

When somebody gets it just right (as Barry has done on that superbly finished Duchess and that long boiler industrial and especially on that almost real looking Southern pacific) it can really lift a model loco to another level. On the other hand, sometimes an overall wash/spray of dead even light grey does the opposite and can spoil an otherwise excellent model.

 

The other thing is that weathering is really difficult to photograph well. So it may be the case that what looks not so clever in a photo looks great in real life.

 

Tony

Thanks Tony,

 

I always base my weathering on photographs if I can, though one must be careful not to take, particularly, colour images too literally.

 

I can remember 'proper' steam. The first photo of a steam loco I took was of a 'Pat' (45502) at Chester in the period after Christmas in 1957. It was filthy. VINDICTIVE and a 'Hall' I took pictures of at the city's walls just in the new year were equally filthy. The pictures were awful (what do you expect from an 11 year old?) but they showed how dirty the locos were. The D11s plying their trade out of the Northgate a year earlier (I didn't take pictures) were equally filthy in the main, as were the GC tanks, and the GC 2-8-0s of all types were heroically dirty - in the '50s. Birkenhead's Crabs had 3D weathering, and as for any Austerities - at times you couldn't read the numbers. 

 

Spotting on the GN main line at Retford, you could guarantee that any 50A or 52A loco, unless it was recently out of shops, had never been cleaned since its last overhaul. New England's A2/1 DUKE OF ROTHESAY was grey/black/brown whenever I saw it - all in the '50s. 

 

Oddly, the first SR loco I saw, at Waterloo in 1962, was gleaming - 34051. I took its pictures. As too was PORT LINE and SIR ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR.

 

You might well be right, but most locos I saw in the '50s were rather dirty.