Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

As I've mentioned, there is a parallel thread in this section where discussions take place regarding the hobby at a crossroads. Interestingly, much of what's being discussed has already taken place here over the last few years.

 

 

Discussions about the difficulties in building kits, for instance. Kits like this archaic Millholme H16, which I'm building for a friend. Seeing the thread has spurred me on to do some more and actually get it finished. Other than having visitors, LB will have to wait for a week or two. 

 

Coincidentally, Irwell has just released a most splendid set of A4 paperbacks on the SR big tanks.  

[peach james]

My dad had a Stanley hand drill as well - unfortunately it got lost during one of my international moves and I haven't found one since that performs as sweetly.

 

 

There's Dad, riding with a pair of the cheapie (Pascal's) versions, making up the diff.  IIRC, they were 59 teeth on the crown.  Yes, a prime number.  Suffice to say, we broke the occasional tooth off.  Good thing the replacement drills were $1/each when bought on special...

 

Dad's workshop is fully equipped.  I came back out here after going to Great British Train Show, and then spending 2 weeks helping move him.  That included the fun task of moving the the "medium" mill.  The base was ~250 lb or so...and I got the Colchester Bantam and brought it out here.  I still have to connect it to hydro, that will be a tomorrow thing, because I have to turn 1/2 of the house off to do it- including the internet & TV connection.  It's much easier to do that when only my wife and I are home, rather than when the lads are home.  It didn't help that the young boy brought home a tummy bug, and then shared it with the rest of us. So as far as tooling went, dad's place was fairly fantastic.  By the time I was 12, I was operating a turret lathe for spending money on the weekends- even "only" getting 1/2 of the partwork price for the air valves was serious coin (about $15/hr if you applied yourself to the job(1988)), so it was well worth doing.  I bought a fair amount of my modeling stuff with money earned that way.  There are more photos of what the basement looked like up on Flickr- https://flic.kr/s/aHsjKr5nE4

 

The only 4mm modeling I did in that shop, I think, was making a set of frames for a Sentinel which is still sitting downstairs (for the Nu-Cast body, with NWSL mechanical components).  It doesn't have wheels, because I couldn't decide which gauge to make it for- either 18.83 or OO.  I've used my watchmakers lathe to turn a few other oddments for models, but not a huge amount.  I made a fair wack of bits for various larger models though, I think dad is up to about 35 engines that he has finished (not started- I don't think there have yet been any that he started & finished...).  Mind, when I say that, the little wagon downstairs is 99% his work- he didn't build the boiler as it was gifted to him after someone else bent it, and it wasn't any use for the traction engine it had been intended for.  (the barrel wasn't straight, so they stuck it into a pipe, and hit it, giving it a dent right where the cylinder should have sat).   https://flic.kr/p/tXNmp3  I made the original pump for it, and plumbed it all up the first time, then it got redone because driving the pump off the crank didn't work, the crank spins way too fast in bottom gear to allow for the pump to work right.  I think there might have been some drawings for the valve gear, but that's about it for what drawings were done for making this little wagon.  It's very much a hybred, as it is not a model of any one wagon type.  A lot of the design ideas were tried on different companies wagons, but never combined like this one has- so it is a small steam wagon and not a model at all...)

 

Anyway, as far as skills go, I think they still exist, but are being slowly eroded.  In some ways, they have changed, because it is far easier to have the computer make some of the parts for the models now than either one of us could (at least, if we had CNC machines, which have dropped in price a LOT over the last 25 years), but it changes the skillset, not that skills are required to make things.  

 

James (no longer "the young whippersnapper" in the club...)

[Focalplane]

Stanley (and lookalike) hand drills certainly get around! Mine has circled the globe, even been in countries I have yet to visit while in a container. When compared with its modern counterparts, the old drill looks (and is) solid.

[St Enodoc]

countries I have yet to visit while in a container.

I've never travelled in a container Paul. What's it like?

[Focalplane]

I've never travelled in a container Paul. What's it like?

 

Not yet!  But I have spent a night in one, a so called Container Motel in Luanda, Angola.  No windows, quite claustrophobic and all for $100  a night over ten years ago.

 

Apologies for going off topic.

[Headstock]

I've never travelled in a container Paul. What's it like?

 

A bit like the time when the aircon broke down on my train while travelling between London and Leeds.

[EHertsGER]

I have one of those screwdrivers as well! In my case it was passed down from my father - and made up about one third of his tool kit - along with a hammer and blunt chisel!

Oh, goodness, yes! Bevel driven hand drill (Stanley, just like the one in the Science Museum exhibit about how we used to live - exact same model - red), wheel brace (and I know how to use it), big flat blade screwdrivers with those lovely bulbous wooden handles, Whitworth wrenches (very useful for the vintage bikes I restore), clamps, chisels, a rip saw so often sharpened it is a keyhole saw now and more, all wrapped up in my Grandfather's sea chest (Battle of Doggar Bank, not Jutland. The Lowestoft Squadron was too far south..) with that patina of oil, sweat and handling of three generations or more...

 

And yes, my son fondles them and looks at me with that 'die already' wistfulness...

Edited June 29, 2016 by EHertsGER

[EHertsGER]

Not yet!  But I have spent a night in one, a so called Container Motel in Luanda, Angola.  No windows, quite claustrophobic and all for $100  a night over ten years ago.

 

Apologies for going off topic.

Luanda 1988-89. Oddly enough very fond memories. Surreal.

[Barry Ten]

I thought I'd post this here in case anyone needs a laugh...

 

 

i mentioned that I'd had painting difficulties with the first 70 foot coach, but I wasn't expecting them to come back and bite

me again with the second one. This time the chocolate and cream went on beautifully, with a lovely crisp separation between

the two colours. The only difficulty was that the paint started lifting back to bare brass as soon as I removed the masking tape!

At first it was only a few small areas and I (rashly) hoped I could rectify and carry on, but sanity prevailed and as soon as I handled

the model I knew I'd better off biting the bullet and stripping back. I've painted quite a bit of brass before and not had this problem,

so I can only conclude that the Tamiya primer I was using wasn't up to the job. It's great for plastic aeroplanes, maybe not so good

for brass.

 

This time, at least, the door hinges stayed in place, but the roof separated again. Oh well, onward and upward. I'll clean up,

reattach the roof, and this time use some of the etching primer I ought to have dug out the first time. I was too lazy to go

upstairs and find it when I had the Tamiya stuff at hand. There's a moral there.

 

One can get frustrated by this sort of thing but I try to take it in a cheerful spirit, after all if a hobby doesn't present challenges,

we wouldn't find it satisfying when things go well, but the downside is that sometimes things go wrong....

 

[coachmann]

You have my sympathy Barry. Back in the early 1970's primer paints were quite dodgy especially on brass and on aluminium. Casualties where coaches had to be stripped and a new start made with consequent loss of earnings were real ball breakers. Then Simoniz, which we usually associate with polish, came up with a really trustworthy red oxide cellulose primer and I used that until the EU interfered, as they had done with solder and other things. Most have come back on the market since, but I settled on Halfords Acid #8 etch primer.

[gr.king]

If I might ask please Larry, does that Halfords No8 really pass the "can't scratch it off smooth brass with a determined thumbnail" test? I've never tried it.

 

Are we talking about the U-pol #8 primer here by the way, rather than the Halfords own etch primer? There seems to be a definite difference, in price at least......

Edited June 29, 2016 by gr.king

[Focalplane]

I don't know if this helps, but I prepare the brass as follows before spraying with Halfords Grey Etch Primer. First I use CIF to clean off any solder/flux residues, then I go over the entire brass surfaces with fine steel wool, burnishing the surface immediately before painting. Blow the residue off with a high pressure can of air. At this stage I have used an alcohol based final clean up but this doesn't seem to be important. Only then do I spray the primer on to what should be a clean and slghtly keyed brass surface.

 

Brass is often considered a "greasy" metal. The steel wool works to remove this surface and is a lot cheaper than using fibreglass sticks which are fine for nooks and crannies.

 

Aluminium takes paint better if it is allowed to oxidize a bit, so the steel wool stage should be omitted.

 

I had not heard of #8 acid etch primer before, I would like to know more!

Edited June 29, 2016 by Focalplane

[Mallard60022]

I thought I'd post this here in case anyone needs a laugh...

 

70footer2.jpg

 

i mentioned that I'd had painting difficulties with the first 70 foot coach, but I wasn't expecting them to come back and bite

me again with the second one. This time the chocolate and cream went on beautifully, with a lovely crisp separation between

the two colours. The only difficulty was that the paint started lifting back to bare brass as soon as I removed the masking tape!

At first it was only a few small areas and I (rashly) hoped I could rectify and carry on, but sanity prevailed and as soon as I handled

the model I knew I'd better off biting the bullet and stripping back. I've painted quite a bit of brass before and not had this problem,

so I can only conclude that the Tamiya primer I was using wasn't up to the job. It's great for plastic aeroplanes, maybe not so good

for brass.

 

This time, at least, the door hinges stayed in place, but the roof separated again. Oh well, onward and upward. I'll clean up,

reattach the roof, and this time use some of the etching primer I ought to have dug out the first time. I was too lazy to go

upstairs and find it when I had the Tamiya stuff at hand. There's a moral there.

 

One can get frustrated by this sort of thing but I try to take it in a cheerful spirit, after all if a hobby doesn't present challenges,

we wouldn't find it satisfying when things go well, but the downside is that sometimes things go wrong....

This might sound a bit odd BT but years ago, Alan of Comet (still with us AFAIK), encouraged the late Geoff Brewin to soak completed coach bodies and under-frames in strong vinegar for at least 24 hours. It sorts out solder residue but also seems to prep the Brass better for priming. If you try that and use the Etch Primer that Larry suggests you should get a good 'hold'. Maybe 'experiment with a plain Brass side in case you are not impressed.

ATB with the next paint job.

Sincerely, 

Phil

[96701]

This might sound a bit odd BT but years ago, Alan of Comet (still with us AFAIK), encouraged the late Geoff Brewin to soak completed coach bodies and under-frames in strong vinegar for at least 24 hours. It sorts out solder residue but also seems to prep the Brass better for priming. If you try that and use the Etch Primer that Larry suggests you should get a good 'hold'. Maybe 'experiment with a plain Brass side in case you are not impressed.

ATB with the next paint job.

Sincerely, 

Phil

Here is a photo of one of those very coaches to which you refer.

[Focalplane]

Yes, cleaning with cheap vinegar is a very useful stage, similar to the isopropyl alcohol I suggested above (except I was having a senior moment and could not renember its name). i can buy white vinegar suitable for this in the local French supermarket for around 50¢ a litre.

[Jol Wilkinson]

By using vinegar you are acid etching the metal surface. Carrs Acidip does the same thing. IPA acts as a degreaser, but does not etch.

 

Probably best to degrease then acid etch, rinse with purified water, dry and paint. Do not touch in between times.

[Focalplane]

The topic of preparing brass for priming has me going back 50 plus years to my childhood when i learned a lot about electroplating. I remember that degreasing and other chemical processes were used before any plating ensued. Companies like Cannings and Hockley Chemicals, the mainstay of the Birmingham trade (and both now gone) had a huge range of chemicals avaiable.

 

The efficiency of the electroplating system depended on many factors, one of which was the metal substrate, in our case, etched brass. Alloys can be very difficult to plate and required the most preparation. Plating is, of course, different from spray painting, but the common factor is preparation. To quote from Wikipedia:

 

Cleanliness

 

Cleanliness is essential to successful electroplating, since molecular layers of oil can prevent adhesion of the coating. ASTM B322 is a standard guide for cleaning metals prior to electroplating. Cleaning processes include solvent cleaning, hot alkaline detergent cleaning, electro-cleaning, and acid treatment etc. The most common industrial test for cleanliness is the waterbreak test, in which the surface is thoroughly rinsed and held vertical. Hydrophobic contaminants such as oils cause the water to bead and break up, allowing the water to drain rapidly. Perfectly clean metal surfaces are hydrophilic and will retain an unbroken sheet of water that does not bead up or drain off. ASTM F22 describes a version of this test. This test does not detect hydrophilic contaminants, but the electroplating process can displace these easily since the solutions are water-based. Surfactants such as soap reduce the sensitivity of the test and must be thoroughly rinsed off.

 

This short quote gives some idea of how our brass models can prepared and tested prior to spraying.

 

A comment about vinegar. The quote above about Comet suggests leaving the model in vinegar for 24 hours. Given the weak acidity of vinegar I would agree that vinegar will etch brass but will need time to do it. So vinegar may be used as a cleaner or a cleaner/etch. With a Gauge O coach I prefer the steel wool approach as finding a large enough container for a 24 hour etch would be difficult. The steel wool process also gives the opportunity to check over the model detail by detail.

[Tony Wright]

Some most-useful tips regarding the preparation of brass-sided vehicles for painting; many thanks.

 

 

 

 

Having just about completed this D&S ex-GER Restaurant Car for service on the M&GNR bit of my railway, attention will need to be paid to its painting. 

 

My technique for this is to vigorously clean the finished model with CIF and water, using an old, but firm, toothbrush, thoroughly washing afterwards. I then spray the model with Halfords acrylic red primer. I've found no need for etched primers. The top-coat is then Halfords Ford Burgundy Red acrylic car paint, sprayed neat from the tin; three thin coats usually sufficing. 

 

 

Before any paint is applied, any model must be thoroughly tested first; here the car forms the first vehicle in the 'Leicester' (after the closure of the avoiding line at Spalding, it was then the last car in the train after reversal in the station). What a joy to build it was - a quite superlative kit. Making something like this gives me the greatest pleasure, on several counts. For one, I've made it myself, will paint it myself and will thus become uniquely mine (building things oneself is central to this thread in my view). Secondly, I cannot believe that any RTR manufacturer has it on its radar, so a model such as this will always have to be built - and, abstracting myself from this statement, the hobby is the richer for it. At the moment it's also richer for having the need to build a B12/3. I built this one from a PDK kit, which Ian Rathbone painted perfectly. With Hornby's RTR version on the horizon, what chance for a kit-built B12/3 in the near-future? Little, I imagine, but the down-side as far as I'm concerned will be layout after layout showing one (I hope with modifications). Still, it should be a splendid model, though I'm happy to have mine right now. 

 

The second car, a Stanier Open Composite, also needed to be kit-built, on this occasion not by me. It came as part of selection of quite-well-built BSL bogie-less carriages (thanks Baz), to which I fitted bogies and concertina gangways, and weathered the underframes. As layout carriages, they look just fine.

 

Finally, a couple of questions, please. Were these ex-GER Restaurant Cars branded 'Restaurant Car' or 'Buffet' when painted maroon? In carmine and cream it was the former (which I might turn this out in). And, were the windows on the corridor side of the kitchen portion white, as with Gresley cars? The kitchen side windows were definitely white. 

 

If you'd like to see this car before it's painted, it'll be on my demonstration stand at the Chiltern Modellers' Day, at Parmiter's School, High Elms Lane, Watford WD25 OUU, on Saturday July the 16th. This is an event well-worth attending; contact exhibition@cmra.org.uk or chairman@cmra.org.uk. Telephone 01438 715580 or 01206 523686. 

 

 

[billbedford]

Instead of vinegar you could use Vikal or other limescale remover. All are weak acids, some I've had from a pound shop have been dilute hydrochloric.

[jwealleans]

Tony, I have emailed you a picture of one of these cars in Maroon which will help.

 

I have a photo of the kitchen side of one in LNER days showing that the glass at that time was frosted but not white - you can see the form of some of the kitchen equipment through it. The upper panes of the large kitchen windows also appear to be clear. I have no date for this photo so they may have changed, but that's the only shot I have of that side of one of these vehicles.

 

Edit to say that looking at other photos, although the corridor side windows don't seem to have been white, the panelling behind them apparently was.

Edited June 30, 2016 by jwealleans

[DougN]

Have to agree Tony, the D&S coach kits are enjoyable to build. They are a challange to get hold of too. Which I find makes the chase and the build so much more interesting. Not for me is to place the kits into storage awaiting big windfalls in the dim distant future. I was even given a NER 6 wheel coach which was a D&S which has been started but not finished. I am concerned though about it going around corners!

[Rail-Online]

Have to agree Tony, the D&S coach kits are enjoyable to build. They are a challange to get hold of too. Which I find makes the chase and the build so much more interesting. Not for me is to place the kits into storage awaiting big windfalls in the dim distant future. I was even given a NER 6 wheel coach which was a D&S which has been started but not finished. I am concerned though about it going around corners!

Adapt the chassis to take tha Brassmasters Clemonson underframe and it will go round your corners!

 

Tony

[Fat Controller]

Yes, cleaning with cheap vinegar is a very useful stage, similar to the isopropyl alcohol I suggested above (except I was having a senior moment and could not renember its name). i can buy white vinegar suitable for this in the local French supermarket for around 50¢ a litre.

You can also pick up dilute hydrochloric acid in the hardware sections of French supermarkets; it's sold as an acidity regulator for swimming pools. It's something like 5 Euros for 5 litres. The white vinegar is not to be confused with white wine vinegar; it's the stuff used for pickling vegetables, but also does a good job of descaling kettles etc.

There is, of course, a regular free source of dilute acid, though these days, we might balk about collecting it..

[coachmann]

If I might ask please Larry, does that Halfords No8 really pass the "can't scratch it off smooth brass with a determined thumbnail" test? I've never tried it.

 

Are we talking about the U-pol #8 primer here by the way, rather than the Halfords own etch primer? There seems to be a definite difference, in price at least......

Apologies for delay in getting back on this as I don't visit every day. I use the Upol Acid #8. Might seem expensive but you get what you pay for. It dries slower than usual primers so don't heat-dry it as it needs time to etch. I haven't tried the determined thumbnail test.....If it don't come off with marking tape its good enough for me.  I set my spray shop clock 2 hours on before spraying on colours. Only use it on top of bare metal or plastic, never on painted finish. Different colours are sprayed on half and hour apart thereafter so U-pol Acid #8 has speeded up my spraying process considerably..... (I used to leave the old primers 4 hours and more often overnight before spraying on top).

 

Cleaning brass etc before spraying..... I continue to use old fashioned non greasy and very effective Ajax (scourer powder).  Each to his own.

Edited June 30, 2016 by coachmann

[gr.king]

Ta. Very handy to know.

 

I suppose other acid cleaners that might be in the household armoury could include Harpic, kettle descaler, or as I often used when my home-brew boiler element needed a clean, citric acid crystals, although I've some recollection that the latter are no longer readily available from home brew suppliers because a use for them was found by the vermin who prepare illegal drugs for idiots who want to ruin their lives.

 

A weak (safer) acid will obviously do the etching job more quickly if the solution is used hot (with appropriate care), within the heat tolerance of any solders, whitemetal parts, plastic items and adhesives.