Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

Can we deal with a few GC myths here?

• The 30 & 40 ton bogie coal wagons were built in 1903/4, the Baldwin loco dates from 1914, so they were unlikely to be part of the same project.
• The bogie coal wagons could only be unloaded by hand, so they were very unlikely to have be used for export coal.
• Coal handling at Immingham docks was by wagon lifts and end door wagons, so these were likely to have been the wagon used in the 100 wagon trains.
• A 1200ton GWL train (i.e. a 100 wagon train) was beyond the capacity of most UK railways in 1914.

Agreed on all points. Whatever scheme Sam Fay and others allegedly had in mind, it would either require wagons of different design to the 1903/4 loco coal wagons, or further new unloading facilities at Immingham such as a large tippler (despite the end tipping facilities for standard wagons having only just been built), along with "induced" co-operation from the colliery operators. I built the models of the earlier bogie wagons to illustrate what further GC bogie coal wagons could have looked like, there being no other examples available, and these wagon models are useful in other ways too. Sidings, loop and section lengths are other obvious stumbling blocks. Even without the Great War, it may all have been beyond even Sir Sam's ability to remove objections and raise finance.

Edited July 9, 2016 by gr.king

[peach james]

Close, but slightly wrong.  The original design was for a loco capable of pulling trains of the then-new 40-ton wagons from the South Yorkshire coalfields to the then-new port of Immingham.  According to the George Dow book that features the appropriate drawings for both the Baldwin and Gorton designs, the American version was going to be capable of pulling 100 wagons (remember these are 40-ton not 10-ton), and would have required the opening out of Conisborough tunnel to accommodate the 13ft 6in height, and then onto the Doncaster avoiding line.

 

Graeme King has built an Anglicised version, and also some of the wagons.

 

With a little math, I am kind of doubtful about the numbers involved here- in order to move 4000 tons (40x100=4000 tons) * .25 (weight of waggons)= 5000 tons * 4 (lb/ton, average force to <10 mph)= 20 000 lb TE required to keep the train moving at 10 MPH or less on level ground.  If the grades are less than 1%, then that lb-f is still moderately valid, but that would still imply a minimum starting TE of >40 000 lb, which implies a minimum weight of 160 000 lb on the drivers (/5 = 32 000 lb/axle, or 16 tons/axle).  So, while it _might_ be possible with a x-10-x engine to move those kinds of #'s in 1914, it would have been near the limits of practical.  The whole plan seems to be right on the limits of what could be done.  Now, there were some very interesting things done around that time- the electrification of Shildon-Middlesbrough is one example.  The technical limits of the UK loading gauge were being approached or exceeded in the immediate pre ww1 period.  From many prospectives (like, oh, say, 19240 or so...and that was just one day...) WW 1 was an entirely tragic event.  International trade only exceeded 1913 volumes recently- the changes wrought by WW1 were enormous.

 

 

James

[t-b-g]

With a little math, I am kind of doubtful about the numbers involved here- in order to move 4000 tons (40x100=4000 tons) * .25 (weight of waggons)= 5000 tons * 4 (lb/ton, average force to <10 mph)= 20 000 lb TE required to keep the train moving at 10 MPH or less on level ground.  If the grades are less than 1%, then that lb-f is still moderately valid, but that would still imply a minimum starting TE of >40 000 lb, which implies a minimum weight of 160 000 lb on the drivers (/5 = 32 000 lb/axle, or 16 tons/axle).  So, while it _might_ be possible with a x-10-x engine to move those kinds of #'s in 1914, it would have been near the limits of practical.  The whole plan seems to be right on the limits of what could be done.  Now, there were some very interesting things done around that time- the electrification of Shildon-Middlesbrough is one example.  The technical limits of the UK loading gauge were being approached or exceeded in the immediate pre ww1 period.  From many prospectives (like, oh, say, 19240 or so...and that was just one day...) WW 1 was an entirely tragic event.  International trade only exceeded 1913 volumes recently- the changes wrought by WW1 were enormous.

 

 

James

 

According to Dow Volume 3 the Baldwin would have had 100 tons available for adhesion on the driving axles and a Tractive Effort of just over 56,000lbs. A later Robinson design also shown in the book was heavier and more powerful.

 

There were several very ambitious schemes, more than a fair share involving Sam fay and the GCR, that just turned out to be impractical given the facilities available. If the locos had been built and the 100 bogie wagon trains become reality, they would have been impossible to handle with the facilities available at the time. Rather like the 100 wagon (traditional 4 wheelers) worked by the P1 class on the ECML, they were a good idea but rather ahead of their time. 100 years later the railways are just about able to cope with such trains but back then, it was just too much.

 

The bogie coal wagons were put into traffic branded for loco coal from the outset, so I am not sure that they were initially intended for coal exports. maybe the plan was to use them once the facilities were upgraded but that is conjecture on my part. But they were fitted and even the wildest idea of a 2-10-2 blasting along at 50 or 60 mph with 100 bogie wagons is quite something.

[Tony Wright]

Looks good Tony. Would you consider doing a coach building/conversion workshop at Hobby Holidays. it could include something like this as well maybe? I'd come. 

 Have a good weekend and please pass on my best wishes to Phil at HH as I know he was almost on the point of packing in the courses.

Sincerely, Phil  @ 36E (Toot as you pass by)!

Phil, I'll mention it to Phil.

 

There were six in attendance today and (amazingly) I was able to help sort out a valve gear problem on an O Gauge Royal Scot, solder the boiler to the firebox of an O Gauge Castle, fix together a pair of rods for a P4 L1 and solder some nuts to the footplate of a tiny OO diesel. 

 

These sort of courses are really good (as you know), allowing modellers to develop their skills in a friendly environment. Kit-building is alive and well at Hobby Holidays. 

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

thanks for the kind words, a reflection more on the quality of the kit and an interesting prototype I think, although good reference material did help. If you describe yourself as, 'just mucking around with modelling' then I would be quite happy if my own work was described thus. Extrapolating from your description then the epitome of modelling in our hobby must be mucking around  with bells on.

 

The stores vans above was a rather interesting modelling prototype. Daily workings of these vans would take them back and forth between the major works and locations such as sheds. They could be attached to passenger, parcels or freight trains in order to traverse the network. They also provided useful employment for a variety of former pre grouping six wheel passenger brake vans and carriage conversions. An everyday if unassuming sight on the steam railway, and an interesting prototype that is rarely modelled.

 

On the subject of carriage construction, mixed media would be my preferred method. Teak carriages did not have textured grain, they were as flat as steel ones. A set of brass sides in conjunction with the 3d printed ends and roof would be a much better option. Perhaps a 3d printed floor pan with brass overlays for the sole bars would also work quite well.

Thanks again, Andrew.

 

Perhaps models of stores/tool vans should be in greater numbers. My memory recalls a time going back nearly 60 years when one such van (I can't recall whether it was four or six-wheeled) used to be propelled at least once a week off 6A (Chester) shed by a 7P 4-6-0 (it was always a rebuilt Scot, Pat or COMET or PHOENIX) into the station to then be attached to a Crewe-bound passenger train which the same loco took. 

[t-b-g]

Thanks again, Andrew.

 

Perhaps models of stores/tool vans should be in greater numbers. My memory recalls a time going back nearly 60 years when one such van (I can't recall whether it was four or six-wheeled) used to be propelled at least once a week off 6A (Chester) shed by a 7P 4-6-0 (it was always a rebuilt Scot, Pat or COMET or PHOENIX) into the station to then be attached to a Crewe-bound passenger train which the same loco took. 

 

One that could appear on your layout Tony is the one I built for Retford. It was an ex MSLR 4 wheeler (as now preserved by the VCT on the KWVR) and it used to work between the S & T facilities at Retford and Peterborough. It used to be attached to passenger trains as it often carried fragile items and they didn't want it being shunted roughly on a goods service.

 

I don't seem to be able to find a photo of it lettered but here is a snap of it finished apart from transfers. I found some suitable ones in the Modelmaster range.

 

Tony G

[Tony Wright]

It seems to me this is part of a long cottage industry tradition of people making what they can rather than what the customers would like.

I think that's a bit harsh, Bill. 

 

Without a large number of cottage industries making what they can, there'd be nothing for many modellers to use, whether they liked it or not. 

 

Andrew Edgson gave me the 3D-printed parts to try (as you gave me your latest carriages), and that's what I've done - given them a go. My 'criticism' of the finish is meant in a constructive manner (as was my 'criticism' of your use of resin for trussing, brake rigging and footboard supports), and, I'm sure, using the suggestions given on this thread, the end result will be all right. If the finish can be improved (and I'm told it will be), then this is a new technology which can be exploited. There's no doubt that the finish isn't anywhere near the same standard as your resin kits (where the surface finish is just about perfect), but might it get there eventually? My knowledge of 3D-printing is very limited, hence the question.

 

Many thanks,

 

Tony.  

[Headstock]

Thanks again, Andrew.

 

Perhaps models of stores/tool vans should be in greater numbers. My memory recalls a time going back nearly 60 years when one such van (I can't recall whether it was four or six-wheeled) used to be propelled at least once a week off 6A (Chester) shed by a 7P 4-6-0 (it was always a rebuilt Scot, Pat or COMET or PHOENIX) into the station to then be attached to a Crewe-bound passenger train which the same loco took. 

 

 

One that could appear on your layout Tony is the one I built for Retford. It was an ex MSLR 4 wheeler (as now preserved by the VCT on the KWVR) and it used to work between the S & T facilities at Retford and Peterborough. It used to be attached to passenger trains as it often carried fragile items and they didn't want it being shunted roughly on a goods service.

 

I don't seem to be able to find a photo of it lettered but here is a snap of it finished apart from transfers. I found some suitable ones in the Modelmaster range.

 

Tony G

 

Great stories, you know it's the real railway that  keeps me building things rather then buying them of the shelf.

[t-b-g]

Great stories, you know it's the real railway that  keeps me building things rather then buying them of the shelf.

 

I think I should probably point out that Tony Wright's stories are first hand, things he saw with his own eyes. Mine have had to be told to me by others. Unlike Tony W, I wasn't there to see them for myself.

 

You are quite right though. It is tales like those that make me want to recreate the scene in 4mm scale by making models of the vehicles involved, rather than just waiting to see what scenes I can recreate using whatever Bachmann/Hornby etc. choose to supply.

[jamie92208]

It is that side of railway operation that's so vital to record. I was having a difficult time working out how to shunt the yard on Green Ayre as the trips all came via a short stretch of main line through the station. I couldn't work out how two of the trips had dealt with the need for a brake van as they had to be propelled. However when I sonnet a morning with two retired locomen the mystery was solved. Apparently there was an entry somewhere in the sectional appendix that allowed 4 or 5 wagons to be propelled from the main yard to the goods yard as long as a lamp was on the leading wagon buffer beam. They apparently kept a stock of specially adapted lamps with one long hanger to go round the buffer shank and a short hanger to go on the coupling hook. I've now got ta make a few of those and leave a stock by the door to the yard office.

 

It's great to see items such as stores vans coming to life as it really makes the railway more interesting.

 

Jamie

[Headstock]

Another couple of items nearing completion, again taken from the real railway. The guards van acted as a shunter's truck for Leicester's yard shunter, J50/4 68981. A simple Parkside kit, it required about 70 drill holes to fit all the handrails and lamp brackets, it could have ended up as a cheese van. Buffers and transfers are still to add, and a nice set of 3d printed lamps will set it off nicely. The horse box is another Parkside kit and was built by John Marsh for the Lambourne - York race special, taken from the 1949 western division special trains notice. Unfortunately the glazing was not very well secured, and fell out. The roof had to be removed and then refitted to sort the problem, fortunately without damage. The springs and J hangers were replaced by John with the correct patten for XP rated vehicles, he has done the same for a couple of the Hornby horse boxes. Did anybody know that the Hornby model has the wrong springs for XP rated horseboxes?. The replacement springs were again 3d printed. The ex GE lowmac will run in the Leicester - Ruddington pick up goods, one of the many ex army vehicles sent to auction at the Ministry of Supply depot located there. It's an old D&S kit while the wagon is a repainted Oxford Die-cast model. The whole thing awaits the fitting of chocks, chains and shackles. Somehow I managed to lose one of the brake leavers, so another had to be manufactured using the original as a template. The joys of model railways.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Headstock

[EHertsGER]

 

"Without a large number of cottage industries making what they can, there'd be nothing for many modellers to use, whether they liked it or not."

 

Thank you for that Tony, for here is the next subject in the 'wither kit building' thread. I think the City calls them 'startups' but for me it was 'I can't be fagged to fret six sets of frames, all identical' so commissioned a commercial set (for the LNER F4/5/6 of Gibson origin in P4) then thought others might like them too (no idea if they would....). Not exactly a well thought out business plan, but I don't suppose cottage industries are.

 

Anyway, wither kit building? There may be others like me who have decided that some forms of production could well be 'farmed out' to better results (to say nothing of mutually employing like minded cottage industries in the process) and possibly buidling a new, admittedly very small, support infrastructure among ourselves.

 

Regardless, I got my frames (now I have to build the damn things!). It's probably a bit further along than 'open the box, wave magic soldering iron and, hey presto!' that, if my experience has anything to go by, is grounded in chucking together Airfix kits on Saturday morning (dry by Lunchime?), but build kits we will, even if it does mean 're-building' the kit itself even before we start assembling it...

 

Long live cottage industries!

 

Best,

Marcus

[Mallard60022]

Tony, I'm reposting this that Chris Tooth posted on my thread. Just look at the coaches! Halwill Junction; suggested as 1961

 

......and here are the same first 5 coaches (no GUV at the front) near Rotherham 1960 as far as I can see. 

Thanks to R Carroll.

 

I never knew ex Quints got into Cornwall but I have checked and yes, a Maroon pair and M & C pair, with MK1 replacement for the CK, did so in the late 50s and early 60s. Some sort of Summer Holiday Extra from Sheffield to the WC.

I wonder if anyone on here knows a bit about this set of coaches on these workings?

Thanks

Phil

 

[Headstock]

Tony, I'm reposting this that Chris Tooth posted on my thread. Just look at the coaches! Halwill Junction; suggested as 1961

Atlantic-Express-Railway-Halwill-Junction-CS224X.jpg

 

......and here are the same first 5 coaches (no GUV at the front) near Rotherham 1960 as far as I can see. 

13798772333_28242df9b4_b.jpg

Thanks to R Carroll.

 

I never knew ex Quints got into Cornwall but I have checked and yes, a Maroon pair and M & C pair, with MK1 replacement for the CK, did so in the late 50s and early 60s. Some sort of Summer Holiday Extra from Sheffield to the WC.

I wonder if anyone on here knows a bit about this set of coaches on these workings?

Thanks

Phil

 

Something very odd about the first photo, it looks half colour tinted. I don't think that exactly the same five carriages are in the two shots, the first would seem to be a twin and two Gresley teak carriages, an end door leading a compartment door type. The second photo is a twin, a MK1, a Thompson and then a teak Gresley.

P.S. The MK1 and Thompson both look like thirds, sorry seconds.

 

edited to change third to second

Edited July 11, 2016 by Headstock

[Headstock]

There was a Sheffield Bournemouth summer Saturday services, the SR set on this working has been modelled on LSGC. When the LM got control of the GC they started scraping passenger services right left and centre. This meant that an awful lot of stock was displaced from their intended workings. The LM couldn't do a lot about the interregional services however. (except close the line) A lot of stock found gainful employment on these summer Saturdays train. This may explain at least one of the photographs above.

[robertcwp]

Tony, I'm reposting this that Chris Tooth posted on my thread. Just look at the coaches! Halwill Junction; suggested as 1961

Atlantic-Express-Railway-Halwill-Junction-CS224X.jpg

 

......and here are the same first 5 coaches (no GUV at the front) near Rotherham 1960 as far as I can see. 

13798772333_28242df9b4_b.jpg

Thanks to R Carroll.

 

I never knew ex Quints got into Cornwall but I have checked and yes, a Maroon pair and M & C pair, with MK1 replacement for the CK, did so in the late 50s and early 60s. Some sort of Summer Holiday Extra from Sheffield to the WC.

I wonder if anyone on here knows a bit about this set of coaches on these workings?

Thanks

Phil

I agree that the two trains are not the same.

 

LNER-designed stock appeared in lots of places in BR days, and not just on holiday trains:

 

42104_OCT-64 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Mallard60022]

Thanks chaps. I can never knowingly remember seeing Gresley coaches at Plymouth in the late 50s and early 60s but they must have been there. I can't even remember noticing the Gresley shape coaches when I was watching stuff at Kings Cross and Liverpool Street in 1960/61, or possibly even when riding in Gresleys between Newcastle and Kings Cross a couple of times in 1961/2.  What I do remember are the oval windows in what must have been Thompsons in a 1962 journey behind 60026 from Newcastle to the X. I suspect '26 came on at Grantham but I'm not certain as I think we left Newcastle behind an A1. Anyway, who cares but the trains I put in my posts are quite interesting to us Southern 'boys'.

Phil

[Headstock]

Regarding the first photo, I believe these were referred to as link E sets. They were formed when the original 5 carriage sets that comprised two twins and a composite were disbanded. The twins were then separated and marshalled with more 'traditional' stock. By the 1960s they began to be displaced from their original workings, so it is perhaps not surprising that they could turn up in rather unusual locations.

[Headstock]

I agree that the two trains are not the same.

 

LNER-designed stock appeared in lots of places in BR days, and not just on holiday trains:

 

42104_OCT-64 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Hi Robert,

 

Any news on your article?

[Tony Wright]

Thanks chaps. I can never knowingly remember seeing Gresley coaches at Plymouth in the late 50s and early 60s but they must have been there. I can't even remember noticing the Gresley shape coaches when I was watching stuff at Kings Cross and Liverpool Street in 1960/61, or possibly even when riding in Gresleys between Newcastle and Kings Cross a couple of times in 1961/2.  What I do remember are the oval windows in what must have been Thompsons in a 1962 journey behind 60026 from Newcastle to the X. I suspect '26 came on at Grantham but I'm not certain as I think we left Newcastle behind an A1. Anyway, who cares but the trains I put in my posts are quite interesting to us Southern 'boys'.

Phil

I think they're interesting to everyone, Phil; not just those who follow the Southern, so, please, keep it up. 

 

Other than on their indigenous patches, I remember riding in Gresley cars between Chester and Shrewsbury and between Cardiff and Shrewsbury (the last mentioned overnight, where my mate and I had one side of a compartment to ourselves, to stretch out and sleep, after a long day at Barry Docks in 1966). 

 

 

I don't recall the shorter Gresleys, like this Isinglass 3D-printed one already featured. It's only when I took a picture in tight perspective that I noticed how bowed it looked. The sides are like that, and I had to tweak the solebars to fit. Is this unrealistic? I know that carriages with turnbuckle trussing could have that trussing adjusted, pulling a body back straight, but I don't think a vehicle with steel solebars would deflect quite as much; vehicles with wooden frames, perhaps. 

 

Changing the subject, another day and another couple of friends visiting. What they brought was most interesting. The following were all built from kits by Colin Foster (who has built for Pete Waterman). All I can say is I think they're superb, and they ran as well as they look. I just left my friends to it as I processed these pictures. They had a fine time, proving how uncomplicated and reliable LB is. Neither of them had ever run it before.

 

 

 

Built from a DJH kit

 

 

Also from a DJH kit.

 

 

And another, earlier DJH kit.

 

 

This is the fifth A1/1 which has run on LB, built, like my own, from a Crownline kit.

 

 

I think this one's from a Nu-Cast kit.

 

 

As is this one, complete with unique extended tanks. 

 

 

Like several of my own A3s, this was built from a Wills/SE Finecast kit and is ex-Riddings Junction. A Carlisle Canal A3 through LB would be very rare indeed.

 

 

Then this appeared, bought off EBay. I made this actual loco over 20 years ago to run on Biggleswade, from a Millholme kit. Without doubt, it is what it is, but it still went fine, taking 13 bogies with ease at high speed. 

 

What a great day!. Thanks Graeme and Ted. And, my apologies for pointing out the too few spokes in the D49's bogie wheels and the too many in the 9F's and 78xxx's!

Edited July 11, 2016 by Tony Wright

[robertcwp]

Hi Robert,

 

Any news on your article?

Submitted, so now out of my hands. I'm unlikely to have time to write anything for quite a while, possibly until retirement.

[Mallard60022]

Robert, may I thank you for having such photo's as the one I posted on here. Could I ask, would you prefer not to have these posted without prior permission?

Many thanks again and apologies if I have infringed your CW.

Sincerely,

Phil R.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Mallard60022

[JeremyC]

<snip>

 

Scott.jpg

 

I think this one's from a Nu-Cast kit.

 

Tony.

 

I don't think Nu-Cast ever did a D30 'Scott', the only cast kit for this class I'm aware of is the GEM one, which is still available. There is also an etched kit made by PDK, my example of which is shown below.

 

D30 'Dugald Dalgetty'

 

Jeremy

Edited July 12, 2016 by JeremyC

[micklner]

   The Millhome A2/3 above is the weirdest thing I have ever seen in Locomotive kits, it looks similar to the Dreadnoughts in the Battle of Jutland on TV last night !!. I had one which I built and sold off a while ago , from memory it never looked as badly proportioned as that one!! The Loco itself on mine didn't look to bad, but as for the Tender as you have written before in your excellent LNER Pacifics book , hit it with a hammer and use it as weight in other models!.

  As to Great Northern I am starting on my fourth one !! One PDK , and a three more using Graeme Kings resin/etched conversions on a Hornby A3 base.

Edited July 12, 2016 by micklner

[coachmann]

I built a model of Great Northern in Thompson style back in 1964 using a Triang A3 boiler with everything else added in Plastikard. The weakest part was the motion that I had shortened and butt soldered! Strengtheners were later added and the loco was sold together with all my other handbuilt locos to the Handymans Shop in Oldham before I departed for sunnier climes by the sea. Plastikard remains a very useful modelling material to this day although we rarely see it used in loco construction......or do we?