Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

I haven't got any photos of weathered prototype coach roofs.

 

Facing the same dilemma as yourself, I took the following picture from the footbridge at Highley on the SVR some years ago. Quite happy to share it with all.

 

Now, before someone else jumps in - yes, I know its preservation but surely roofs are still subject to the same depositing of smoke / soot / atomised oil from steam locomotives? The SVR even has a tunnel of a reasonable length! Perhaps only the slower speed of operation makes a difference compared to weathering patterns of yore?

 

What's interesting (to me) is the variation of roof colour / weathering on the teak set compared to the Mk1 set to its right. It's often said by Tony and others that one run up and down the ECML and any trace of white on carriage roofs would be long gone. Not sure if it would be quite THAT quick but point well made. How often did staff go atop roofs with mop and bucket in them days and give them a heavy clean? (carriage washing plants being more aimed at cleaning carriage sides) How often do they do that on the SVR for that matter? (especially with 'Elf n Safety lurking round every corner these days!)

 

I think the carriage closest to the camera is of most interest. Note the greater accumulation of dirt round the ventilators and the pass-comm. gear at the end compared to the rest of the roof.

 

Hope that helps.

[billbedford]

Now, before someone else jumps in - yes, I know its preservation but surely roofs are still subject to the same depositing of smoke / soot / atomised oil from steam locomotives? The SVR even has a tunnel of a reasonable length! Perhaps only the slower speed of operation makes a difference compared to weathering patterns of yore?

 

 

Did you check that the carriage restorers used white lead or some more modern synthetic substance for bedding in the canvas on the roofs?

[Dunsignalling]

Facing the same dilemma as yourself, I took the following picture from the footbridge at Highley on the SVR some years ago. Quite happy to share it with all.

 

CIMG4445.JPG

Now, before someone else jumps in - yes, I know its preservation but surely roofs are still subject to the same depositing of smoke / soot / atomised oil from steam locomotives? The SVR even has a tunnel of a reasonable length! Perhaps only the slower speed of operation makes a difference compared to weathering patterns of yore?

 

What's interesting (to me) is the variation of roof colour / weathering on the teak set compared to the Mk1 set to its right. It's often said by Tony and others that one run up and down the ECML and any trace of white on carriage roofs would be long gone. Not sure if it would be quite THAT quick but point well made. How often did staff go atop roofs with mop and bucket in them days and give them a heavy clean? (carriage washing plants being more aimed at cleaning carriage sides) How often do they do that on the SVR for that matter? (especially with 'Elf n Safety lurking round every corner these days!)

 

I think the carriage closest to the camera is of most interest. Note the greater accumulation of dirt round the ventilators and the pass-comm. gear at the end compared to the rest of the roof.

 

Hope that helps.

I was up on the SVR last week and the roofs of the five Gresley coaches in use (the recently-shopped 2701 excepted) are a good deal darker than that right now.

 

Only one of the rest was as pale as the nearest in your picture.

 

Delete - looking at the wrong set of photos - two are freshly repainted.  

 

John

Edited July 18, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Facing the same dilemma as yourself, I took the following picture from the footbridge at Highley on the SVR some years ago. Quite happy to share it with all.

 

CIMG4445.JPG

Now, before someone else jumps in - yes, I know its preservation but surely roofs are still subject to the same depositing of smoke / soot / atomised oil from steam locomotives? The SVR even has a tunnel of a reasonable length! Perhaps only the slower speed of operation makes a difference compared to weathering patterns of yore?

 

What's interesting (to me) is the variation of roof colour / weathering on the teak set compared to the Mk1 set to its right. It's often said by Tony and others that one run up and down the ECML and any trace of white on carriage roofs would be long gone. Not sure if it would be quite THAT quick but point well made. How often did staff go atop roofs with mop and bucket in them days and give them a heavy clean? (carriage washing plants being more aimed at cleaning carriage sides) How often do they do that on the SVR for that matter? (especially with 'Elf n Safety lurking round every corner these days!)

 

I think the carriage closest to the camera is of most interest. Note the greater accumulation of dirt round the ventilators and the pass-comm. gear at the end compared to the rest of the roof.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Simple answer is that the only bit of the roof which was cleaned was that where the output of the CWM (carriage washing machine) caught it - and the brushes on modern machines didn't get that far up.  In the years when I was involved in carriage cleaning the roofs weren't touched at al and on the WR (sorry) we had no Standard Time for roof cleaning although we did have one for 'backs' (coach ends).

[Blandford1969]

Simple answer is that the only bit of the roof which was cleaned was that where the output of the CWM (carriage washing machine) caught it - and the brushes on modern machines didn't get that far up.  In the years when I was involved in carriage cleaning the roofs weren't touched at al and on the WR (sorry) we had no Standard Time for roof cleaning although we did have one for 'backs' (coach ends).

There is a carriage washing plant on the road at the far side of the carriage shed at Kidderminster. I can't remember the frequency of washing off hand, but seem to remember its at least once a month. So no need for going on roofs

[Mallard60022]

Wow, Tony! Those buildings look absolutely fantastic, what a transformation. The prototype vs model photos are stunning. Great work by Bob.

 

Just one question - what was the purpose of the first storey room on the Up side? Looks like a lift shaft but that doesn't make much sense with the footbridge (unless it was a relic from pre-4 track days?).

 

Or maybe it was for locking up naughty trainspotters? ('An hour in the tower for you my lad! And no Tizer allowed!'!)

Possibly the water storage tank for services?

Phil

[St Enodoc]

Facing the same dilemma as yourself, I took the following picture from the footbridge at Highley on the SVR some years ago. Quite happy to share it with all.

 

CIMG4445.JPG

Now, before someone else jumps in - yes, I know its preservation but surely roofs are still subject to the same depositing of smoke / soot / atomised oil from steam locomotives? The SVR even has a tunnel of a reasonable length! Perhaps only the slower speed of operation makes a difference compared to weathering patterns of yore?

 

What's interesting (to me) is the variation of roof colour / weathering on the teak set compared to the Mk1 set to its right. It's often said by Tony and others that one run up and down the ECML and any trace of white on carriage roofs would be long gone. Not sure if it would be quite THAT quick but point well made. How often did staff go atop roofs with mop and bucket in them days and give them a heavy clean? (carriage washing plants being more aimed at cleaning carriage sides) How often do they do that on the SVR for that matter? (especially with 'Elf n Safety lurking round every corner these days!)

 

I think the carriage closest to the camera is of most interest. Note the greater accumulation of dirt round the ventilators and the pass-comm. gear at the end compared to the rest of the roof.

 

Hope that helps.

The ribs on the roof of that Mark 1 on the right look way overscale.

[great central]

Did you check that the carriage restorers used white lead or some more modern synthetic substance for bedding in the canvas on the roofs?

May be totally irrelevant but a good many years ago I helped to re-do the roof on my mother in law's caravan. They were originally traveling showmen (fairground operators). The van, known as a wagon, had a clerestory roof which they knew as a 'mollycroft'.

Anyway the material used was canvas stuck down with copious amounts of gloss white paint. Then given several further coats until the canvas was thoroughly covered.

[Mallard60022]

I have on occasion used paper masking tape (the cheap stuff for decorating) on Van roofs to give 'that canvas texture look'. It needs to be well stuck down but it looks OK in my opinion. Not sure I would dare doing it on a Gresley domed end shape roof though.

Phil

[jwealleans]

I mix talcum powder into the paint on canvas roofs. It gives a slight texture, finer than paper and also matts the paint down so there's a greater contrast with the (usually varnished) sides.

 

The LNERCA website seems to have vanished, but as Bill has suggested, I'm sure I read on there that white lead is no longer used on roofs.This is the closest I can find, but seems to confirm.

Edited July 18, 2016 by jwealleans

[grob1234]

Those buildings completely change the character of the whole station area, they look superb. I should imagine you're rather chuffed with those, Tony.

[billbedford]

I mix talcum powder into the paint on canvas roofs. It gives a slight texture, finer than paper and also matts the paint down so there's a greater contrast with the (usually varnished) sides.

 

 

 

Halford's primer use talc as their filler.

[billbedford]

May be totally irrelevant but a good many years ago I helped to re-do the roof on my mother in law's caravan. They were originally traveling showmen (fairground operators). The van, known as a wagon, had a clerestory roof which they knew as a 'mollycroft'.

Anyway the material used was canvas stuck down with copious amounts of gloss white paint. Then given several further coats until the canvas was thoroughly covered.

 

Traditionally the 'paint' on canvased roofs was made with white lead, then from the late fifties, early sixties paint manufacturers started replacing white lead with titanium dioxide. They did this because TiO2 was much less reactive, easier to handle, cheaper, brighter (brilliant white) and doesn't fry babies brains. This was generally seen as a Good Thing™ except it has caused endless argument from people who don't understand their paint chemistry.

[coachmann]

Re white roofs, yes the Severn Valley examples do show how roofs weathered, but this occurs in slow-motion on a lightly used heritage line compared with an intensively used railway system where virtually all locomotives were steam. Those lovely white roofs very quickly polluted down to dark grey bordering on black in steam days. I only saw teak coaches on the Standedge and Woodhead routes and both featured long tunnels under the Pennines. No white roofs have stuck in my memory, although this isn't too surprising when one considers white roofs would have stopped being applied in early 1949 or even sooner.  I continued to see teak mainline corridor coaches until 1954 by which time I was 12 years old, although some non-corridor coaches lingered on longer in 'teak' on the ex GCR lines around Manchester

Edited July 18, 2016 by coachmann

[jwealleans]

The LNER painted roofs grey during the war. Some carriages built or refurbished afterwards did have white roofs, but they'd be a vanishingly small number in the context of the whole system.

[ecgtheow]

Many thanks to all for responses to my question about what weathered coach roofs looked like. It's all very helpful & once I get round to actually weathering a few coaches in about 2 weeks time (if the weather holds), I will put some photos on here to show if I have succeeded or NOT!).

 

William Jenkins (ecgtheow)

[Tony Wright]

Wow, Tony! Those buildings look absolutely fantastic, what a transformation. The prototype vs model photos are stunning. Great work by Bob.

 

Just one question - what was the purpose of the first storey room on the Up side? Looks like a lift shaft but that doesn't make much sense with the footbridge (unless it was a relic from pre-4 track days?).

 

Or maybe it was for locking up naughty trainspotters? ('An hour in the tower for you my lad! And no Tizer allowed!'!)

Thanks for the compliments, Graham. 

 

I'll pass them on to Bob (and his grandson, Scott). I don't think either of them look at RMweb. 

 

When the line was quadrupled in the early years of the last century, the station was almost completely rebuilt, so it's no relic. The first storey structure you ask about is a water tower, built to serve the station and its ancillary buildings, there being no mains water at the time (as postulated by Mr Duck). It's very similar to the one that used to be at Corby Glen, but that had a pitched roof. Oddly enough, there were no loco-watering facilities at LB, crews obviously hoping their steeds didn't die of thirst before reaching either Corby Glen or Essendine. 

 

It's easy to forget that as late as the '50s, many structures (not just those in the countryside) did not have mains water. Two ladies who used to live in the station cottages in the early-'50s say that they had the luxury of running water in their homes, provided from the tank at the station. They had to make do with outside privies, though.

 

Bob and Scott are modelling these cottages and their thunder boxes as their next commission (a chequebook modeller, me!). In this regard, I claim pragmatism.I know I cannot build buildings to that standard, have almost reached my Biblical life-allocation and I'm writing an article on LB for the MRJ; so, I have to get cracking. Not only that, the station buildings form a chapter for the Crowood book to be published later this year. Not only not only that, having just delivered my latest Deltic book to Irwell, I'm now tasked with writing one on the Class 50s (how did I have time to work?).

 

Pictures for Bob and Scott's portfolio offset the costs considerably (so the cheque wasn't heavy), and it's yet another example of horse-trading. I am delighted with those buildings (who wouldn't be?) and even more delighted with how they fit into the overall scheme. Because I haven't compromised by trying to squeeze far too much in, resulting in the likes of daft bends going on/off scene (thanks for taking my advice in that regard), the 'open' feeling of LB, representing such a fast main line, is really coming together; thanks to a not inconsiderable input from your good self. 

 

I think, as I've said many times, the overall effect is the result of good friends' teamwork, all pooling resources to bring about this representation of the fastest stretch of main line in the realm. I'm very fortunate to be part of that team.  

Edited July 18, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Those buildings completely change the character of the whole station area, they look superb. I should imagine you're rather chuffed with those, Tony.

Thanks Tom,

 

As mentioned in the previous post, I am indeed chuffed - to bits!

[gr.king]

Having been away for a couple of days, sweating* either in the car or in Cambridge, I've only just seen the pictures of the lovely new station buildings on Little Bytham. They make a wonderful difference.

 

*I enquired this morning, after a very uncomfortably warm night in a Premier Inn, why in obviously hot weather they diligently turn the basic electric cooling fans OFF in guest rooms during the day before the arrival of the guest(s), leaving only the restricted window openings to vent the veritable furnace that most of their structures are, air-con not being on offer. Apparently it is so that the fans don't burn out......

 

So longevity of electric motors matters more than guest comfort?

[Mallard60022]

Slightly OT but......

Seaton Junction Station and Yards did not have Water Cranes for loco's. Seaton had water for the Branch loco's.

In a book I have about summer workings and WR diversions along the SR due to incidents on the WR main line, there is mention of a group of big wigs trying to sort out a diverted WR train coming west. They find out it is a Hall, ask a trainspotter what the tender capacity would be (tenders varied so that's a laugh for a start and I forget where the trainspotter was supposed to be) and then arrange for it to stop for water at Seaton Junction. Good eh! Bit of fiction thrown into a so called record of actual events there methinks as these blokes were supposedly at Seaton Junction. Or, a very irate driver and fireman when they reach SJ. Sorry but I don't believe it (Meldrew's voice). As if the Stationmaster or Signalman at SJ would not have asked why the diverted train was stopping.

Anyway Tony, your cheque-book buys you fine art for your layout (buildings and maybe some other items). It is your collection so you do as you wish. Would you not buy a really fine painting by a superbly talented artist for your art collection or a beautiful piece of furniture for your home? You can paint and do woodwork but hey, they are better at it so get that cheque-book out and let it work for you.

If I didn't have a 'cheque-book' my railway would not exist. 

Phil  

[geoff west]

Wonderful buildings Tony, what a difference they make to the layout, it really is looking fantastic.

[Tony Wright]

Slightly OT but......

Seaton Junction Station and Yards did not have Water Cranes for loco's. Seaton had water for the Branch loco's.

In a book I have about summer workings and WR diversions along the SR due to incidents on the WR main line, there is mention of a group of big wigs trying to sort out a diverted WR train coming west. They find out it is a Hall, ask a trainspotter what the tender capacity would be (tenders varied so that's a laugh for a start and I forget where the trainspotter was supposed to be) and then arrange for it to stop for water at Seaton Junction. Good eh! Bit of fiction thrown into a so called record of actual events there methinks as these blokes were supposedly at Seaton Junction. Or, a very irate driver and fireman when they reach SJ. Sorry but I don't believe it (Meldrew's voice). As if the Stationmaster or Signalman at SJ would not have asked why the diverted train was stopping.

Anyway Tony, your cheque-book buys you fine art for your layout (buildings and maybe some other items). It is your collection so you do as you wish. Would you not buy a really fine painting by a superbly talented artist for your art collection or a beautiful piece of furniture for your home? You can paint and do woodwork but hey, they are better at it so get that cheque-book out and let it work for you.

If I didn't have a 'cheque-book' my railway would not exist. 

Phil  

Thanks Phil,

 

The reference to cheque-book modelling was my attempt at irony, which rather flopped, it seems. 

 

Without my cheque-book (or bank card), I'd have no railway either, but it's arrived at by a lot more than that, or at least I hope so. On a personal level, I couldn't participate in a constructional hobby where I didn't do a lot of the modelling myself, and help others to do the same on a practical level. It's my way of writing cheques to charities, via those I assist. I don't ask folk to contribute, don't tell them what the contribution should be and where to send it, and certainly don't check up afterwards. Others, of course, can please themselves and I certainly don't have the right to deny them that.

 

I certainly would not have a railway either, were it not for the combined talents of many friends, who've all contributed; mostly because they want to and we can trade 'skills'. I accept, it's indeed a privileged position.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Tony Wright

[polybear]

 

*I enquired this morning, after a very uncomfortably warm night in a Premier Inn, why in obviously hot weather they diligently turn the basic electric cooling fans OFF in guest rooms during the day before the arrival of the guest(s), leaving only the restricted window openings to vent the veritable furnace that most of their structures are, air-con not being on offer. Apparently it is so that the fans don't burn out......

 

So longevity of electric motors matters more than guest comfort?

Claim your money back under the Premier Inn "Good Night Guarantee"

http://www.premierinn.com/gb/en/terms/booking-terms-and-conditions.html#gng

(They can't argue that it is due to weather conditions beyond their control - Exclusion 1 - cos' they decided to turn the fans off).

Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

HTH

[jamie92208]

Just to help about the modern techniques for sticking canvas down I can perhaps add a little bit. I recently helpd to restore a horse drawn tram and we had to canvas the roof. The canvas supplier also supplies several preserved railways.   We used a mixture of a synthetic mastic mixed with white spirit until it was the consistency of thick paint.  This was painted onto the timber roof, then the canvas was placed on it and then painted again with the mastic mixture before being held down with beading etc.  I also use masking tape to re[resent canvas on model coach roofs.

 

Jamie

[gr.king]

Claim your money back under the Premier Inn "Good Night Guarantee"

http://www.premierinn.com/gb/en/terms/booking-terms-and-conditions.html#gng

(They can't argue that it is due to weather conditions beyond their control - Exclusion 1 - cos' they decided to turn the fans off).

Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

HTH

 

I have been thinking about it....