DENT STATION with CHESTERGATE

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Re: Helix climbing....

 

Another good point is that the uphill struggle will all be on the outer larger radius and the downhill on the tighter inner radius at both ends so this should help somewhat.

[Physicsman]

Time will tell Chris!

 

I am now tempted to bodge something together just to give it a test. Trouble is I detest doing something which I know I will inevitably undo as it seems a total waste of precious time but logically it seems worth it at this point now that a few doubts are niggling me.

 

Mike, you have the same attitude as me. The problem is, my last layout ended up with so many design faults that I became paranoid and have tried to test most of the ideas I've chucked into KL before committing wholeheartedly.

 

I hope the helix works out for you. We'll no doubt hear the screams of frustration if it doesn't!

 

Jeff

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Reading Jeff's comment above I am wondering if anyone can hear my screams!!!!!!

A few posts ago ChrisG got me wondering if the spirals would work as desired, in short - they don't. Strange thing is I did ask around what could be expected of this system and the info I received gave me the confidence in going ahead.

In the end I laid some track and had a few trial runs with a variety of loco's all of which were so very different in their pulling capacity it was cruel to watch.

To quickly summarise: The best performers I tried were, a Hornby Clan on 7 MK1s followed by a Bachmann Class 40 again on 7 MK1s. Eight was just too much for both.

At the other end of the scale a Hornby Black 5 and a Bachmann K3 were abysmal. I gave up after that disillusioned, disheartened and positively disgusted with the whole bleeding thing.

 

Anyway it looks like a complete re-think of the set-up is now in order so watch this space.

 

It only remains for me to sincerely thank ChrisG for a timely comment as the seed of doubt was followed up and proven to be a monumental folly.

 

And I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun!   

[JZ]

Any gradient on a model railway can seriously compromise haulage capacity. I have a 1:80 on mine and despite trials on a straight piece to determine the optimum gradient, when put into practice on a 48" rad, the result was different. Some loco's that took 7 on the straight had to have their load reduced to 5. I'm glad I didn't try model mine on Ilfracombe. I wish you luck on finding a solution that suits you.

[67A]

Hi Jules,

To be honest I had not really considered the curve as more of a problem, in fact I thought the wheels may grip a little better.

I was watching 'Stainmore Summit' at the Expo EM show in Manchester a couple of weeks ago and noticed a small bout of slipping from a few of the trains as they reached the summit and it did give me a little cause for concern then following ChrisG's comment I just had to try it out.

 

Love your Avatar!

[ChrisG]

Time will tell Chris!

 

I am now tempted to bodge something together just to give it a test. Trouble is I detest doing something which I know I will inevitably undo as it seems a total waste of precious time but logically it seems worth it at this point now that a few doubts are niggling me.

 

I'm going through the same process on my layout right now, and I have become convinced that conducting proper tests is NOT a waste of time. More an investment. It is difficult to put effort into setting something up that will be undone, but in the long run, it's the road to a successful layout. When I first commented, for some reason I didn't see the photos of the Helix - it certainly looks good (like the rest of the layout which looks magnificent) and I hope you can silence the doubters! 

 

I shall follow with interest and fingers crossed!

 

Chris

[ChrisG]

I'm going through the same process on my layout right now, and I have become convinced that conducting proper tests is NOT a waste of time. More an investment. It is difficult to put effort into setting something up that will be undone, but in the long run, it's the road to a successful layout. When I first commented, for some reason I didn't see the photos of the Helix - it certainly looks good (like the rest of the layout which looks magnificent) and I hope you can silence the doubters! 

 

I shall follow with interest and fingers crossed!

 

Chris

 

Oh dear, I seem to be exceptionally good at failing to see what has already been written...........:-(  And as I now see, you carried out the test and weren't happy with the results. What prompted my original comment was a friend who had a loft layout (now dismantled) with a short radius helix, who put me off the idea for my layout currently under construction. In fact the planning process for my layout was a long drawn out affair and what started as a grand plan with 4 stations, hidden loops and a helix is now two stations and no helix.....  But a much better chance of a) being "finished" one day and b) running reasonably well.

 

Chris

[Sasquatch]

I had some minor problems on Goathland with its grades. Funny thing was the garage floor caused most of it. The best performers were on old Hornby class 29 which has been fitted with extra pickups and a hefty weight also my sons LNWR super D which will haul any load even 35 ply laidened coal wagons.

 

The other problem was trains derailing due to the weight behind the locos as they picked up speed going down hill. This was cured by slowing trains as they passed the summit evident in the videos on my thread.

I'm wondering if the cant helped in any way on my layout and if applied to a helix would cure the worst? 

 

Regards Shaun.

[LNER4479]

Hi Mike,

 

Sorry to hear of your difficulties after the promising start to your project.

 

I assume (although maybe you could enlighten us) that your use of the spirals is due to space considerations? Otherwise, wouldn't you simply have run the layout round your room with the fiddle yard at the back in classic 'roundy roundy' style?

 

The only successful use of a stacked spiral I've seen is at the spectacular ModelEisenbahn in Hamburg (largest model railway in the world?)

 

At the risk of this just appearing to be a gratuitous excuse for showing a picture of this remarkable set up(!), if you look to the left of centre you will see a stacked spiral, used to get the trains to and from the spectacular high level bridge that you walk under (I think this took the trains from Germany to Austria)! What you can't see (and apologies therefore that I didn't take a further picture) is that this spiral is NOT a continuous circle but in fact a lozenge shape, ie 180deg curves followed by straight lengths and therefore is something like 4ft x 8ft in footprint.

 

What this tells me is that the actual size of spiral you need for it to work successfully is in truth a little larger than you'd like and therefore not as much of a space saver as you might think.

 

Do you have the space to set up your spirals 'lozenge' shaped, at 90deg to the main axis of your railway? Even a short straight (say 2 feet?) between the curves might make all the difference?

 

Finally - a 'Clan' plus 7 bogies didn't sound too bad to me! Presumably therefore you have aspirations to run longer trains than that? I only say that as 7 bogies was the maximum train length on my previous layout which had gradients (no spirals though!), generally between 1-in-75 and 1-in-90.

 

Good luck with whatever resolution you choose and shall keep following with interest.

 

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Having calmed down a little after the disaster and found the blade in my craft knife was too blunt for the wrists I have had a few ideas, none of which are set in stone as yet.

 

To answer a few of the above comments:

I hoped to run actual train lengths as seen on the S&C e.g 10 coach Thames-Clyde etc. so six and seven were too much of a compromise.

The lozenge shape was and still is a possible solution, problem is each end is a different size and at one end the idea would more than likely work and at the other it may not so another bout of testing would be required however I am more against this now than ever due to the extremely poor performance of some loco's which just refused to even attempt to climb.

The reason for the spirals was to allow one side of the den for modelling and the other for the layout, if I opt for the round and round I will lose this option.

 

Decisions - bleeding decisions.

[Sasquatch]

How about running the helix arround the edge of the room and doubling back at either end. This will need 8 - 12 " of wall space opposite the layout though. 

[Andrew P]

Hi Mike, I have just had a catch up and at 01.30 in the morning it doesn't make good reading, mind you it probably wont at any time of the day or night.

 

I do hope you resolve the issue and can complete the rest of the project.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

All the best,

Andy

[lezz01]

Hi Mike.

Now I know this is going to sound stupid but have you thought about banking the helex? Super elevation I mean, although you could bank the whole thing like a race track, like the old track at Monza or the super speedway ovals the "septics" race around, as its hidden it wouldn't mater if it looks as stupid as it sounds. Works for the real thing as it helps to mitigate the centrafugal force and gives higher speeds through the curve. So it should have the effect of lowering the resistance and thus increase the hauling capacity of the locos. You can exagerate the degree of banking to a point where its not quite tipping over. Just don't stop on the helex and it should work out fine although I would fit some sort of barrier on the inside so that if the worst happens your prize stock won't hit the deck. Just a thought haven't tried it myself you understand but as you've come this far its got to be worth a punt.

Regards Lez.Z.

[colin penfold]

I don't know what sort of modelling activity you wanted to have on the other side of the den, but if you go for eye level staging of the layout couldn't you comfortably put your workbench, spray booth, shelves or whatever under the layout? If you went for rail level around 56-60 inches depending on your standing eye level you would get about 48-50" clear underneath. Then you could avoid the compromises involved in the helix and still accommodate everything?

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Many thanks for the constructive comments received and following a fair bit of head scratching I have decided to try the extended helix, in essence its the two semi-circles of the original spaced apart by 1150mm; therefore taking the original 'mean' diameter of 900mm the distance covered to gain a height of 70mm was approx. 2.8mtr, with the extensions in place this increases to approx. 5mtr !  The rise is about 4mm per 300mm. If this does not allow longer trains to climb to the top (500mm higher) I will probably settle for slightly shorter trains. There is of course the new DCC concepts gadget coming out but at around £20 per 500mm plus magnets for all my loco's its a no-brainer! Perhaps DCC Concepts would like to use Dent as a showcase eh?

 

The idea of a round and round poses more problems than just encroaching on my modelling space, at some point I will need to dismantle the layout and fiddle yard to set-up my Bermuda Road layout fully, with the helix I can work on Dent and set-up sections of Bermuda Road opposite when required.

 

I did like the idea of a Le-Mon's style bank but would this not encourage the stock to implode ?

 

I have made a start by stripping down one spiral and prepared the new base, there is little point in trying a little bit as a test so I intend to lay at least 3 levels before I try it out, pic's will follow once I have something to show.

 

Manchester show this weekend was pretty good, quite a few layouts right up my street and good trade support, Halifax last week was a little poor I thought.

[Sasquatch]

1 in 75 dosen't sound too bad!

If your helix is bolted it will be easy to introduce a cant on the curves which may help also giving the front inside drivers of locos a little more grip! 

 

Regards Shaun, keeping my fingers crossed!

[67A]

1 in 75 dosen't sound too bad!

If your helix is bolted it will be easy to introduce a cant on the curves which may help also giving the front inside drivers of locos a little more grip! 

 

Regards Shaun, keeping my fingers crossed!

Hi Shaun,

I am really worried a cant would cause lengthy trains to collapse inward, would this not be the case then?

[67A]

Hi all,

The first level is now assembled and cork laid ready for some track laying, keeping more than my fingers crossed I can tell you!

[Sasquatch]

Hi Shaun,

I am really worried a cant would cause lengthy trains to collapse inward, would this not be the case then?

Mmmmm! You have a point. Too much cant will tip a lenghty train, tight curves will also my son wanted to see how many he could get behind his super D and that gave out on the tight curve. That was a 16' mineral train. The gradients on Goathland are 1 in 50 with very gentle curves. 5 or 6 is my limit for a passenger train, there are some engines which are only happy with 2! Bachmann class 4 mogul comes to mind. I laid a lenght of string under the outside of the sleepers to achieve my cant which is easily removed!

Good luck with this.

 

regards Shaun

[67A]

Hi all,

 

SUCCESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!  - well partial success anyway. My friend John and I have raised the new spiral to the third level and I can get a 9 coach train up the gradient with the Clan that would only pull six previously. The Black 5 and K3 both managed six and a selection of diesels have shown no problems as yet.

 

I think that following a little overdue maintenance on the coach axles and perhaps a bit of weight in some loco's we should be satisfied with the outcome. I'll post afew pic's over the weekend but as things stand I'm a happy man - ish!

[Sasquatch]

! Lubing up all the axle points will help a lot too. The guys use graphite over here, they reccon it won't collect dirt as much as liquid lubricants.

[APOLLO]

Now a lot of people will frown at this - but it works well for me, and has done for several years.

 

On my loft layout I have one bit of gradient on the high level goods lines causing several locos with 20+ wagons to slip. My solution was to roughen up the rails with a sanding block. Works well, though needs to be re-roughed every 3 or 4 months. I run the block cross wise across the track, not along it.

 

Brit15

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Both the above comments taken on board, I would have used oil but will try some graphite for a change, and as for roughing the rails  -  they do that with weld on the 12" to the foot version, so there is a prototype for everything it seems!

 

Cheers guy's.

 

1st spiral is half way now!

[Physicsman]

Hi all,

 

Both the above comments taken on board, I would have used oil but will try some graphite for a change, and as for roughing the rails  -  they do that with weld on the 12" to the foot version, so there is a prototype for everything it seems!

 

Cheers guy's.

 

1st spiral is half way now!

 

Good to hear the spirals are working, Mike. So all is not lost.

 

Pictures please!

 

Jeff

[ChrisG]

Hi all,

 

SUCCESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!  - well partial success anyway. My friend John and I have raised the new spiral to the third level and I can get a 9 coach train up the gradient with the Clan that would only pull six previously. The Black 5 and K3 both managed six and a selection of diesels have shown no problems as yet.

 

I think that following a little overdue maintenance on the coach axles and perhaps a bit of weight in some loco's we should be satisfied with the outcome. I'll post afew pic's over the weekend but as things stand I'm a happy man - ish!

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

I was at the Farnham show this weekend and met the guys from Elite Baseboards who showed me a product called "Power Base" made by DCC Concepts in Australia, and imported here by Elite Baseboards. It is made up of metal bases which fit under the track and magnets which are fitted under the locos and give a significant increase in pulling power.   Once again, I am merely a satisfied customer of Elite, and have not actually used the Power Base product myself. They did show me the evidence on video, though.

 

Chris