Westerham, + Weald. Tarmac surface for the platform

[ronstrutt]

Hi

 

The two will be vacuum and steam heat. The other three are for the air powered pull push gear.

 

Specifically:

 

Blue for regulator control

Green for the main storage pipe

Yellow for the back pressure pipe

Oh, and there were electrical connections too.

 

Ok, I know, I'm just showing off now. (I just happened to read that this morning!)

 

With the mechanical/wire systems used on other railways it was a simple matter to detach the links to the regulator. The driver sat up front and worked the brake while the fireman worked the regulator on the footplate. All completely unofficial of course but the excuse was that the mechanical links were always giving problems. There were far fewer problems with the SR air system but sometimes the regulator just didn't seem to get connected up. .

[nest]

Trains on a Sunday?!? Blimy

 

Great work as always Adrian

 

Nestor

[westerhamstation]

A 15 second stop at Brasted was allowed, I don't know what the rush was, it's not like they were busy.

[jcredfer]

Principal of the College I went to, XXXXXX years ago, caught the non-stopper from Paddington to Exeter   .......

 

A 15 second stop at Brasted Reading was allowed,

 

 

....   at Reading.  ......     

 

Upon sitting down he was approached by the Guard, in a somewhat excited state, saying that Prinny could not get on the train here, as it wasn't a stop for the train   .......   

 

Prinny was not a chap to get excited 'though and couldn't quite seem to get into the same excitement of the moment as the Guard.  He considered for a moment and replied that as Reading was not a stop for the train, he couldn't possibly have got on it.    ..................         

 

 

Edit:  Nice brasted picture of Brasted   ....  nice, atmospheric and full of cobwebs   ......  ..........................          ........................     they are there, I can see them  .....  

Edited August 20, 2014 by jcredfer

[Dave Scott]

Short stops were a feature of the Southern though 15 sec does sound shor. I am new to RM and have found this thread fascinating.I knew Westerham post closure and the comment re trafic jams brought back memories. You appear to have captured the spirit of the line well. I cycled down there a few times, there was a good tea room on the green.

 

In some posts there was discussion could the line have been incorporated in electrification and the design of Dunton Green was quoted as a hinderance. No one mentioned the simple solution of attaching / splitting at Orpington. If the Westerham train picked up at Dunton Green Knockholt and Chelsfield what is now the stopper could run fast to Orpington to attach. In the evening the Westerham goes on the back. 

 

Great work

[ronstrutt]

...In some posts there was discussion could the line have been incorporated in electrification and the design of Dunton Green was quoted as a hinderance. No one mentioned the simple solution of attaching / splitting at Orpington. If the Westerham train picked up at Dunton Green Knockholt and Chelsfield what is now the stopper could run fast to Orpington to attach. In the evening the Westerham goes on the back. 

 

Great work

 

Without giving yet another reason not to buy my book when it finally appears, BR did consider this option. (To be fair to them, there were some on BR who did want to keep the line open and tried every which way to save it.) The argument against it was a circular one: there were passengers from Chelsfield, Knockholt, and Dunton Green who wanted to go to Sevenoaks (and vice-versa), who would not be able to do so under this plan, as all their stopping trains would go to Westerham. To solve that, the skip-stops would have to stop at Dunton Green, in which case it would have been pointless for the Westerham train to go on to Orpington and beyond. Crew costs would also have been doubled as it would not have been possible to operate Westerham to Orpington with one set of men per shift.

 

The main problem was that a train that called at all stations from Dunton Green took far too long to get to London. For example, the 7.38am from Westerham arrived at Dunton Green at 7.49 and connected into the 7.51 all stations (except St Johns) to Charing Cross. It finally arrived at 8.43: 65 minutes for 26 miles. The next train, the 8.10 was better. It connected into the 8.23 from Dunton Green to Cannon Street, which was fast from Orpington to London Bridge but, with an arrival at 8.56, your office had to be very close to the station and you had to be a fast walker to get in for 9 o'clock.

 

BR surmised, probably correctly, that with the growth in the use of cars and in the days before parking became a problem, Westerham passengers would, before long, find it quicker, cheaper and more convenient to drive to Croydon or Bromley and catch a train from there. From East Croydon or Bromley South to Victoria took only 20 minutes and from Bromley North to Charing Cross or Cannon Street only 30 minutes, and for less than half the price.

 

The other alternative in steam days would have been to stop one or two expresses at Dunton Green but restarting a heavy up express at the bottom of Polhill was to be avoided at all costs in view of the gradient and the tunnel just ahead.

[Dave Scott]

Without giving yet another reason not to buy my book when it finally appears, BR did consider this option. (To be fair to them, there were some on BR who did want to keep the line open and tried every which way to save it.) The argument against it was a circular one: there were passengers from Chelsfield, Knockholt, and Dunton Green who wanted to go to Sevenoaks (and vice-versa), who would not be able to do so under this plan, as all their stopping trains would go to Westerham. To solve that, the skip-stops would have to stop at Dunton Green, in which case it would have been pointless for the Westerham train to go on to Orpington and beyond. Crew costs would also have been doubled as it would not have been possible to operate Westerham to Orpington with one set of men per shift.

 

The main problem was that a train that called at all stations from Dunton Green took far too long to get to London. For example, the 7.38am from Westerham arrived at Dunton Green at 7.49 and connected into the 7.51 all stations (except St Johns) to Charing Cross. It finally arrived at 8.43: 65 minutes for 26 miles. The next train, the 8.10 was better. It connected into the 8.23 from Dunton Green to Cannon Street, which was fast from Orpington to London Bridge but, with an arrival at 8.56, your office had to be very close to the station and you had to be a fast walker to get in for 9 o'clock.

 

BR surmised, probably correctly, that with the growth in the use of cars and in the days before parking became a problem, Westerham passengers would, before long, find it quicker, cheaper and more convenient to drive to Croydon or Bromley and catch a train from there. From East Croydon or Bromley South to Victoria took only 20 minutes and from Bromley North to Charing Cross or Cannon Street only 30 minutes, and for less than half the price.

 

The other alternative in steam days would have been to stop one or two expresses at Dunton Green but restarting a heavy up express at the bottom of Polhill was to be avoided at all costs in view of the gradient and the tunnel just ahead.

I hope you all dont mind if I digress a little re Dunton Green stops. I used to commute to London from Staplehurst. One winter morning there was deep snow.A train evetually arrived and we sparked and flashed ane eventually got to Sevenoaks. There had not been an up for some time so control issued a stop order for Dunton Green. Having made our stop we flashed and banged and eventually expired on the bank despite being 12 cars. Another train was brought up behind and our driver got out to discuss tactics. Just at that point a news helicopter hovered to take some pics. Well being loose snow the downdraft created a mini blizzard. What had once been a man in a dark overcoat turned into the closest thing to a yetti. He was not best pleased. We eventually made Orpington around 13.00, I had gone to catch the 7.20 from Staplehurst. We were passed by a down coming out of Sevenoaks and the sensible solution would have been to have stopped the down and picked up the up passengers and taken them to Sevenoaks so all ups could at least have had a run at the hill

[westerhamstation]

Without giving yet another reason not to buy my book when it finally appears, BR did consider this option. (To be fair to them, there were some on BR who did want to keep the line open and tried every which way to save it.) The argument against it was a circular one: there were passengers from Chelsfield, Knockholt, and Dunton Green who wanted to go to Sevenoaks (and vice-versa), who would not be able to do so under this plan, as all their stopping trains would go to Westerham. To solve that, the skip-stops would have to stop at Dunton Green, in which case it would have been pointless for the Westerham train to go on to Orpington and beyond. Crew costs would also have been doubled as it would not have been possible to operate Westerham to Orpington with one set of men per shift.

 

The main problem was that a train that called at all stations from Dunton Green took far too long to get to London. For example, the 7.38am from Westerham arrived at Dunton Green at 7.49 and connected into the 7.51 all stations (except St Johns) to Charing Cross. It finally arrived at 8.43: 65 minutes for 26 miles. The next train, the 8.10 was better. It connected into the 8.23 from Dunton Green to Cannon Street, which was fast from Orpington to London Bridge but, with an arrival at 8.56, your office had to be very close to the station and you had to be a fast walker to get in for 9 o'clock.

 

BR surmised, probably correctly, that with the growth in the use of cars and in the days before parking became a problem, Westerham passengers would, before long, find it quicker, cheaper and more convenient to drive to Croydon or Bromley and catch a train from there. From East Croydon or Bromley South to Victoria took only 20 minutes and from Bromley North to Charing Cross or Cannon Street only 30 minutes, and for less than half the price.

 

The other alternative in steam days would have been to stop one or two expresses at Dunton Green but restarting a heavy up express at the bottom of Polhill was to be avoided at all costs in view of the gradient and the tunnel just ahead.

Hi Ron, Many thanks for your full reply, as usual you supply all the relevant reasons behind things, so thanks for that. I hope that when your book does come out, it will be a resounding success and sell well. All the best Adrian.

[ronstrutt]

Hi Ron, Many thanks for your full reply, as usual you supply all the relevant reasons behind things, so thanks for that. I hope that when your book does come out, it will be a resounding success and sell well. All the best Adrian.

 

Thanks, Adrian. I just wish I could model half as well as you. Little skill is needed to read through pages and pages of musty old documents. One day, though, we must club together and get you an H Class.

 

Just to add a further comment re the branch working, when electrification was authorised in 1961, it was on the basis of a 2 EPB shuttle on the branch alone. Just a thought, though, if the line had been built as first planned (ie as an extension of the Swanley to Bat & Ball line), we might now be looking forward to through trains from Westerham to Bedford, Peterborough or Cambridge in a couple of years time.

[Jaz]

A 15 second stop at Brasted was allowed, I don't know what the rush was, it's not like they were busy.

Absolutely gorgeous picture.....you get the just been photographed in real life look spot on.

[ronstrutt]

I just hope the 9.55 Flyer won't get too crowded on Wednesday. Where do you think the local populace will head for? Canterbury, Ramsgate, Broadstairs or Margate, or will they wait until Sunday and go to Hastings?

 

 

[westerhamstation]

Hi Ron,that's great, so many choices, for me it would be a trip to Margate and spend my pocket money at Dreamland. Or wait till Sunday and go to Hastings and have a go on the boating lake

and a plate of cockles. Happy times at both places. All the best Adrian.

[jcredfer]

It is no wonder the line got closed   .....................    what a cunning plan    ..........

 

Where do you think the local populace will head for? Canterbury, Ramsgate, Broadstairs or Margate, or will they wait until Sunday and go to Hastings?

 

 

......................     cheap tickets to attract people to buy   .......        ....................

 

and no sign of any return trips     ...........................    a few months like that and there can't have been anyone left, in Brasted, to travel  ...   line unused - must be closed - obvious  ..........   

 

...........................................................     even to the few politicians who chose to look  ....   

[Glynn Huggins]

Just a few pictures of my efforts to hide the end of the line, (for the time being). I am going to get another strip light which should improve the lighting at this end.

At the other end of the line... I have a few pics of my 'N' gauge model of Dunton Green which I posted today - I am very much aware of the shortcomings when compared to Adrian's marvellous efforts but spare a thought for my failing eyesight trying to detail in 1-148 scale!

[westerhamstation]

Hi Glynn, Dunton Green is coming on a treat, It's good to see some pictures of progress. We should get to Chevening Halt about the same time

All the best Adrian.

[ronstrutt]

At the other end of the line... I have a few pics of my 'N' gauge model of Dunton Green which I posted today - I am very much aware of the shortcomings when compared to Adrian's marvellous efforts but spare a thought for my failing eyesight trying to detail in 1-148 scale!

 

As I had a spare Saturday afternoon, I thought I'd knock up a quick model of the Dunton Green footbridge in its original location.

 

Realistic, isn't it? I do like the DCC smoke effects. Clever things these microchips.

[westerhamstation]

Hi Ron, what a brilliant photograph, those early railmen were really hardy people.Thanks for sharing the picture. All the best Adrian.

[jcredfer]

I am so inspired at the picture   ...............

 

As I had a spare Saturday afternoon, I thought I'd knock up a quick model of the Dunton Green footbridge in its original location.

Realistic, isn't it? I do like the DCC smoke effects. Clever things these microchips.

 

 

Particularly the double exposure of the Loco, to make it look like a double-header  ....................       

[ronstrutt]

Hi Ron, what a brilliant photograph, those early railmen were really hardy people.Thanks for sharing the picture. All the best Adrian.

 

I love the way that the driver of the train engine is leaning out, obviously trying to see why, when his engine seems to be working very hard, the pilot engine only has a lazy trail of exhaust coming from its chimney. Mind you, the pilot engine seems to have a tenderful of dust, so perhaps he's on go slow!

 

Note also how the footbridge stairs go in different directions, because of the partially staggered platforms.

 

This is, by the way, Grove Park in 1903 before the line was quadrupled there, the widening being the reason why the footbridge became redundant there and got moved to DG.

Edited August 23, 2014 by ronstrutt

[ChrisN]

Love those locos!  Have you noticed how clean they are!

 

Rule of double heading and banking, "We do all the work, they are there for the ride.

Edited August 24, 2014 by ChrisN

[JCL]

Hi Adrian

 

I can't hold it in any longer. I've tried to fight it, but I'm done, you've won. Your layout is so marvelous that I need to find out more about the Southern Railway (which has always been a foreign country to me). Have you, by any chance, the location of a good website I can read? And maybe something that will explain the class numbers/letters? It seems to be more complicated than the GNR and LNER.

 

cheers

 

Jason

Edited August 23, 2014 by JCL

[westerhamstation]

Hi Adrian

 

I can't hold it in any longer. I've tried to fight it, but I'm done, you've won. Your layout is so marvelous that I need to find out more about the Southern Railway (which has always been a foreign country to me). Have you, by any chance, the location of a good website I can read? And maybe something that will explain the class numbers/letters? It seems to be more complicated than the GNR and LNER.

 

cheers

 

Jason

Hi Jason, to save the planet everyone should go green, especially Southern Green. To get you started this site will ease you in and get you started on your green credentials.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/153-southern-railway-group/

I will pm you some more sites as and when in a plain envelope to save you any embarrassment. All the best Adrian

[cromptonnut]

I can't hold it in any longer. I've tried to fight it, but I'm done, you've won. Your layout is so marvelous that I need to find out more about the Southern Railway (which has always been a foreign country to me). Have you, by any chance, the location of a good website I can read? And maybe something that will explain the class numbers/letters? It seems to be more complicated than the GNR and LNER.

 

Two quite useful sites that you may wish to spend some hours browsing.

 

http://www.srg.org.uk/

 

http://www.semgonline.com/home.html

[ronstrutt]

Hi Adrian

 

I can't hold it in any longer. I've tried to fight it, but I'm done, you've won. Your layout is so marvelous that I need to find out more about the Southern Railway (which has always been a foreign country to me). Have you, by any chance, the location of a good website I can read? And maybe something that will explain the class numbers/letters? It seems to be more complicated than the GNR and LNER.

 

cheers

 

Jason

 

Welcome on board! There was something special about Southern branch lines. They were all readily identifiable as Southern but all had their differences and idiosyncrasies, in a way that the identikit GW branches never did. GER branches seemed to have that special feel too.

 

Others have pointed out some good sites. I would heartily recommend the SEMG site. Join up - it's free - and you get access to more. It's all good stuff and you can rely on it for accuracy.

 

As for locomotive classes, unlike the LNER, the Southern never reworked its locomotive classification. It simply continued with the pre-grouping class systems, so it can sometimes seem a bit confusing to a newcomer, but that was part of the Southern's charm.

 

As this is a South Eastern model...

 

Both the South Eastern, in the form of James Stirling, and the London, Chatham & Dover, in the form of William Kirtley, kept the number of classes to a minimum. Stirling designed only six - three main line passenger, and one each of goods, passenger tank, and shunter. Both companies simply seemed to take any handy and unused letter of the alphabet for class designations. When a design was rebuilt or a significant variation was introduced, a '1' was stuck on the class name so that, for example, the reboilered Q class became Q1s. The Chatham A and B classes got fiddled with so much that there were A2s and B2s. Needless to say, when the two railways 'fused' as the South Eastern & Chatham in 1899, there was some overlap but nobody worried too much. There was a Stirling R class (0-6-0Ts, famed for their work - three or four on a train - on the steep Folkestone Harbour branch) and there was a Kirtley R class (0-4-4T passenger tanks). After 1899, Wainwright rebuilt both and called them R1s. People just knew which was which.

 

Sorry, but both the 'SER/LCDR/SECR' and the London & South Western Railway (maybe the LBSCR too, for all I know) had no immediately-obvious locomotive numbering policy. The shareholders of many Victorian/Edwardian railways had an enormous fear of railway companies making loose and free with their money. Building too many engines was one of their greatest fears. The solution was that any new engine had to take the number of the withdrawn engine that it was replacing. If additional engines were built, they had to take numbers on the end of the existing range. That way it was very obvious when extra engines were being built - the numbers began to creep up.

 

As a result of this, the numbering of the P Class, to give one example, was 753, 754, 27, 178, 323, 325, 555 and 558. Numbers 753 and 754 were additional engines, but no. 27 replaced a Q class tank withdrawn in 1910, and was designed to handle similar duties.

 

NB: That is the reason for the so-called 'duplicate lists' too. These consisted of engines that needed to be replaced but still had some life left in them. They were moved to the duplicate list, freeing up their numbers in the main list, and acquired a zero on the front of their numbers. Occasionally, too, older engines were renumbered to free up a convenient batch of numbers for a new build.

 

Here endeth the first lesson.

 

I hope I haven't put you off.

[westerhamstation]

Don't get me started about Health and Safety, I have had to dig 144 holes for these fence posts, just to stop railway personnel from wandering off into the fields and getting frightend by the cows. Now I have got to paint all these 144 posts, and paint all the cotton so that it looks like rusty wire, and on top of that I have got to explain to Mrs W Station why she has got no cotton left.