Heljan LNER Tango 2-8-0

[BrushVeteran]

It may be worth checking that the combination levers next to the cylinders have not been squeezed in too far during handling and may be fouling. Obviously worth checking everything from the drive axle as occasionally clearances are tight.

[coachmann]

It might be worth checking to see if the 3-to-1 gear is over running at speed and buggering up the middle cylinder.....

[wilks]

My O2 arrived today from hattons.

After having run half a length of slightly curved track it stopped running and the wheels are now jammed.

So far I am unable to see what the cause is.

The valve gear, especially on the right side,  has too much sideplay and could interfere with the front driver but this is not what has happened.

 

Leen.

Leen

 

Check the connecting rod on the right side between the third and fourth driving wheel has not caught on the moulded brake block. It only happens when going forward.

 

Paul

[3737]

Thanks for your reactions.

I still cannot find what has caused the problem without dismantling the loco.

No, this time it's not the conjugated valve gear and it's not the brake block or the union link either, the latter of which would for sure have caused problems in curves sooner or later.

 

On the Dutch forum someone informed me that Heljan and some other H0-manufacturers, that share the same gear cog supplier, have gear cog problems since about a month or 6.

I will let Hattons know tomorrow and the loco will most probably be returned to Liverpool.

 

Leen.

Edited January 31, 2016 by 3737

[BrushVeteran]

Thanks for your reactions.

I still cannot find what has caused the problem without dismantling the loco.

No, this time it's not the conjugated valve gear and it's not the brake block or the union link either, the latter of which would for sure have caused problems in curves sooner or later.

 

On the Dutch forum someone informed me that Heljan and some other H0-manufacturers, that share the same gear cog supplier, have gear cog problems since about a month or 6.

I will let Hattons know tomorrow and the loco will most probably be returned to Liverpool.

 

Leen.

Leen

 

Just send it back to Hattons' and insist on a replacement. It would be interesting to know what the fault is though as we are unaware of any gear-train problems. None of the samples experienced this and we have run them for some well extended hours.

[3737]

I feel a bit ashamed to have to admit that my two inspections of the loco have not been thorough enough.

After having put the right glasses (+4) on, I discovered that after all it was indeed a brake block causing the blockage.

After taking the culprit away the loco went off as it should.

I will glue the brake block back on later.

Thanks for trying to help and fortunately it is not the cog.

 

Leen.

Edited February 1, 2016 by 3737

[coachmann]

 Someone asked me how old members are on RMweb. He had noticed that whenever someone reported a 'fault' on a new loco, RMweb went viral and other members started jumping up and down afraid of catching a deadly bug. He imagined that their minders had to open the boxes for them and only let them handle the contents under supervision seeing as they were incapable of sorting anything out.   

Edited February 1, 2016 by coachmann

[CUTLER2579]

Light Blue Touch Paper and Stand Well Clear.

[coachmann]

I like a bit of a chuckle   in a morning....

[No Decorum]

This old member is fine, thank you. I appreciate your asking.

[Black 5 Bear]

Someone asked me how old members are on RMweb. He had noticed that whenever someone reported a 'fault' on a new loco, RMweb went viral and other members started jumping up and down afraid of catching a deadly bug. He imagined that their minders had to open the boxes for them and only let them handle the contents under supervision seeing as they were incapable of sorting anything out.

[Black 5 Bear]

Is it really such a wild expectation to receive an item which is fit for purpose ???? I for one value others comments, before I commit and waste my hard earned cash.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Black 5 Bear

[Horsetan]

.... Heljan and some other H0-manufacturers, that share the same gear cog supplier, have gear cog problems since about a month or 6.

 

I suppose they could always find a suitable alternative from an eBay supplier in Hong Kong....

[Ian Hargrave]

I feel a bit ashamed to have to admit that my two inspections of the loco have not been thorough enough.

After having put the right glasses (+4) on, I discovered that after all it was indeed a brake block causing the blockage.

After taking the culprit away the loco went off as it should.

I will glue the brake block back on later.

Thanks for trying to help and fortunately it is not the cog.

 

Leen.

And bless you for having the honesty and fairness to admit it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Is it really such a wild expectation to receive an item which is fit for purpose...

 Of course not. But I would guess at what Coachmann may be driving at. Ever since I got involved in trying to put all the visible detail on locos using decently scaled parts, it has been a fact that the resulting model has to be handled and stored with care; and troubleshooting exactly what slightly displaced or damaged component was making the mechanism run like a limping dog, or not at all, became an essential skill.

 

An abiding frustration of mine with this hobby, is so often the lack of decently disciplined problem analysis. We still don't know for sure if the Hattons/Heljan B-G has a fundamental design flaw in the mechanism, or if the problem reports only apply to the normal small proportion of any OO production.

 

Having given my O2 an aggreagate six hours running following receipt, I'd say it is fundamentally sound as a mechanism design - fit for purpose. Doesn't mean it is immune from infant mortalities and other failures, but that it has the bones of a good job.

[rodger5591]

Thanks for your reactions.

I still cannot find what has caused the problem without dismantling the loco.

No, this time it's not the conjugated valve gear and it's not the brake block or the union link either, the latter of which would for sure have caused problems in curves sooner or later.

 

On the Dutch forum someone informed me that Heljan and some other H0-manufacturers, that share the same gear cog supplier, have gear cog problems since about a month or 6.

I will let Hattons know tomorrow and the loco will most probably be returned to Liverpool.

 

Leen.

 

Mine arrived today and also locked up on its first run. But I managed to find out why and seemed to have fixed it, which may be useful others with a similar problem.

 

When I opened the box to get the loco out (always on a white cloth spread on the kitchen table to catch the loose bits these days), the right hand side sanding pipe was floating loose, which later proved to be significant.

 

Looking at the right hand side motion, the leading crank pin screw head was jammed against the crosshead arm (drop link). I eased the combination lever forward with the tip of a scalpel, and the jam unblocked. However on the next revolution (in reverse), it happened again. So turned it over and noticed the slide bars on the left side were parallel to the cylinder, but on the right side they were bent out at an angle. Also the cylinder on the right was set at angle, with the lower edge much closer to the frames than the top. The pip on the sandpipe box is supposed to sit in a locating hole in the frame behind the cylinder, but there wasn't enough space to fit the assembly on the right side due to the lower edge of the cylinder being so close to the frame (which is presumably why the person assembling the loco just put it loose on the box - there was no sign of any glue on it).

 

So the problem was a poorly fitted right hand cylinder, which didn't allow enough clearance for the leading crank screw coming out of the bottom of its travel when in reverse, compounded by an attempt to fix the jamming by bending the slide bars out at an angle to the cylinders. To try to fix it, I gently placed a small screw driver between the frames and the bottom edge of the cylinder, and eased the bottom edge of the cylinder out just enough to be able to slide the sanding pipe box into place and fix it with superglue.

 

Once in place, the sandpipe box is wide enough to force the lower end of the cylinder into its correct position in the vertical plane. Back on the rolling road and no more locking up. I then eased the bent slide bars back to parallel and still no locking up. Its been running for about an hour now, in both directions, and seems fine (fingers crossed). In fact it runs so quietly I have to keep checking that it is actually still running and not jammed again.

[Ian Hargrave]

This has developed into a swings and roundabouts situation.I have been deeply sceptical of the quality and performance of this model since problems with the Beyer G surfaced a while back.Here is another example of problems in assembly leading to the inevitable malfunction of the model. And no,it simply should not occur.

 

Fortunately,there is another side to the coin.A number of forum members report delight and success with the O2.I read with much interest the posts detailing its finish,performance and capabilities.Particular thanks to 34,B&D for his sound and informative judgement.Thus,much against my 'better judgement '.....whatever that is......dear reader,I took the plunge and bought one.It felt as if I were in a game of Russian Roulette as I removed this incredibly weighty and substantial model from its box.Bits count? Two,actually...the front bogie wheel set and a front footplate stay (tiny). The former clipped straight back and the latter will needs be re glued.

On the track....slow and hesitant at first....and then she came alive and settled into her stride like a thoroughbred.Effortlessly smooth and silent...arguably the quietest steam R-t-r I have......and muscular in power.Thus far,no blips,thank the Lord.It seems I got a 'good un'.

Am I pleased ? You bet I am. Well done,Graham and Tony.

[Horsetan]

......It felt as if I were in a game of Russian Roulette ....

....but with only one chamber empty?

 

I was thinking more of T.S. Eliot's Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock:

 

"....In the room the women come and go

Talking of Michelangelo.

And indeed there will be time

To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?”

Time to turn back and descend the stair...."

[Matabiau]

I have just had to send my O2/3 back as it displayed a number of assembly faults. Apart from the usual bits floating around in the box due to a lack of glue in the factory one of the front lamp irons was broken off and nowhere to be seen, but more significantly the chimney was poorly moulded with a part of the rear rim missing. The retailer told me they have had no end of returns for these O2s and are having to check them one by one when they arrive in the shop.

 

I never got the chance to try it out on the track to see how it runs, a pity as it is otherwise a handsome beast.

 

I noticed that the outside cylinders are metal, presumably to give the loco more weight. Unfortunately the paint wears off easily, particularly where it rubs on the moulded plastic packaging. Heljan should be advised that the metal parts of the loco should not come into contact with the packaging, a great idea to improve traction but not thoroughly thought through.

[Tony Wright]

I've read with great interest the comments on this thread about the Heljan O2. Obviously, given my involvement in the project, I have to declare an interest, which probably makes any comments I have biased. 

 

Over the over-two years' development of this (these) model(s), Grahame Wareham (Brush Veteran) and I have taken great pains to get things as near 'right' as is practicable. I've assisted with the research, but a major input on my part has been to do with the locos' (all of them) performance. At first, the motion was poor, particularly the return crank arrangement, so I took pictures, made a mock-up modification and I'm delighted that the big-end is now a substantial piece of kit which shouldn't fail. If, as it might appear, that some models' valve gear has 'jammed up', then that must have occurred in the packaging/shipment stage. On one of our pre-production samples, the gear had been squashed together in handling; easily cured by bending back out the interfering pieces. If this has occurred on a production sample, may I suggest simple remedial work of this kind, please? Yes, I know it should not be necessary, but the valve gear on these O2s is as 'near-scale' as is practicable on an RTR model. Picking it up by the gear will also result in the parts being squeezed together - something which the likes of Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang never had a problem with - they just made it bomb-proof!

 

During all the testing of the running, no derailments occurred, though on earlier samples the back-to-backs were tight. A recommendation was made and this was acted upon. The test track was Little Bytham, which has very well-laid track indeed. If derailments happen on other railways, is that unique to Heljan's Tango, or do other vehicles come off the road? If so, please check the trackwork. 

 

Comparisons will, inevitably, be made between these models and other 2-8-0 equivalents. As you'll see on the next BRM DVD, these Heljan 2-8-0s will take at least 20 more wagons than an O1, O4 or 'Austerity'. For those with small railways, this is irrelevant, but it's nice to know up to 70+ wagons can be taken by an RTR product. 

 

As for finish, numbers and the comments about the chimneys, I'll be renumbering/weathering/modifying one for BRM as soon as I get one. 

 

I'm sure there'll be critics (it keeps us on our toes!), but my (admittedly biased) view is that you have a very good RTR loco at a reasonable price, given that costs are constantly rising. For those who have the requisite modelling skills (and they're not too difficult to acquire), then any 'changes' can be easily made to make this Heljan O2 really exceptional. You have now the opportunity of owning a Gresley 'Tango' in OO, without the 'need' to kit or scratch-build. Indeed, if the former path is chosen, the costs of a complete kit/wheels/motor/gearbox are way above the cost of this RTR loco - well over £200.00, maybe more.

 

It comes, of course, down to a matter of choice. I'm not defending any model with mechanical faults (clearly, they shouldn't be there), but there have to be some inevitable compromises with regard to detail/finish. If one isn't satisfied, so be it. If it's too expensive, well, so be it. If it doesn't work properly, then reject it or send it back. If it's not up to 'your' standard, then the choice is there not to buy. However, all that said, I'd be surprised if there are not many, many guys/girls who are delighted with their Heljan Tangos.

 

I have no connection with Heljan, other than in an advisory role.

 

One of the LNER pre-production Tango will be at Stafford next weekend, having a run on Grantham. I'll be running a loco-clinic at Doncaster and I'll also be at Biggleswade and Glasgow, if folk wish to bring along their Tangos for me to look at. It's not for me to fix them (that would be to negate any guarantee) but just to answer any questions.    

[teaky]

As a slight aside, what would you estimate the weight of those 70 wagons to be?  I'm curious since there is a big difference between a RTR wagon and, say, a whitemetal kit built example and it might help to have an idea so that people can translate.  I've just weighed a Bachmann 5-plank and it was 30g, so 70 30g wagons gives a total train weight of 2.1kg.  If one's wagons are bult or modified to what I believe is a commonly adopted standard of 50g that would suggest a train of 42 wagons (still a long train).

 

 

Back on topic - Whilst the price compares favourably with kits, it is around the top end of RTR and really ought to justify this by being better made than the competition.  I can put up with a bit of re-glueing of small details, slight paint flaws in areas that will be weathered anyway, one-off tweaks of metal parts and adjusting back-to-backs slightly but there are some faults like the mis-moulded chimneys that would not be acceptable even at the budget end of RTR.  I am waiting for the O2/2, so I am hoping the production gremlins will have been sorted out by then.  I have not been put off by the problems so far but it has inclined me towards collection in person so I can see what I'm getting up front.

[coachmann]

Price might be regarded as top end now but I remember only a few years ago when members were complaining about paying £95.00! If you cannot afford it now or consider to expensive, one day you may have to live with the notion that you missed an opportunity when prices were lower.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

As a slight aside, what would you estimate the weight of those 70 wagons to be?  I'm curious since there is a big difference between a RTR wagon and, say, a whitemetal kit built example and it might help to have an idea so that people can translate.  I've just weighed a Bachmann 5-plank and it was 30g, so 70 30g wagons gives a total train weight of 2.1kg.  If one's wagons are bult or modified to what I believe is a commonly adopted standard of 50g that would suggest a train of 42 wagons (still a long train).

Since there is no 'standard wagon' why not think about using mass - which is well characterised - and gravity, which works well everywhere. I do a simple lift test: loco on straight and level track lifts a weight box by means of a thread running over a pinpoint axle in a fold up W-iron (from a compensated wagon set). This can be used to estimate both drawbar pull as a force and the force required to start any given sample of vehicles. Results:

 

 ...the O2 ..., 48g on my weight lift test. ... The Hornby O1 was next best of RTR 2-8-0s I have tried, 40g force. Not quite enough, though with the flywheel out and lead in for an extra 50g of weight over 'as supplied' it is now fine. (Other freight heavies: Bachmann WD 34g, Hornby 8F 30g, Bachmann O4 28g, Bachmann 9F 58g, estimated BG at circa 80g.)...

 

 

Now the difference between the Hornby O1 and the Heljan O2 of 8g force, would lead me to estimate that the O2 will pull 24 more wagons, as my wagon fleet averages 'three per gram force' to start. For such a simple characterisation, a close estimate to the '20 wagon' difference that Tony Wright reports in post 301 above.

[Tony Wright]

As a slight aside, what would you estimate the weight of those 70 wagons to be?  I'm curious since there is a big difference between a RTR wagon and, say, a whitemetal kit built example and it might help to have an idea so that people can translate.  I've just weighed a Bachmann 5-plank and it was 30g, so 70 30g wagons gives a total train weight of 2.1kg.  If one's wagons are bult or modified to what I believe is a commonly adopted standard of 50g that would suggest a train of 42 wagons (still a long train).

 

 

Back on topic - Whilst the price compares favourably with kits, it is around the top end of RTR and really ought to justify this by being better made than the competition.  I can put up with a bit of re-glueing of small details, slight paint flaws in areas that will be weathered anyway, one-off tweaks of metal parts and adjusting back-to-backs slightly but there are some faults like the mis-moulded chimneys that would not be acceptable even at the budget end of RTR.  I am waiting for the O2/2, so I am hoping the production gremlins will have been sorted out by then.  I have not been put off by the problems so far but it has inclined me towards collection in person so I can see what I'm getting up front.

I'm sorry but I've no idea what the wagons weigh. 

 

When you visited Little Bytham last year (I think I've got that right, but it's easier to remember real names) you would have seen most of the train in the Down kick-back sidings. It consists almost exclusively of Bachmann/Hornby wagons with a few plastic-kit-built ones. All run freely and are lubricated, so rolling resistance is minimised. That said, it's still a substantial train.

 

Your point about the extra cost is well-made, but it must be remembered that there are a lot more variations of this model than of a Hornby O1, Bachmann O4 or Austerity. Other than livery and small detail variations, each is really just one model. With the Heljan O2/3-O2/4 there are different tenders and different boilers to consider, as well as livery types. Add on to that the extra differences when the O2/1 and O2/2s appear - different footplates, cabs and a GNR tender. I wonder what the cost would have been for a Bachmann O4 if O4/5s, O4/6s, O4/7s and O4/8s had been offered as well. 

 

You're also right about mis-moulding being unacceptable, but that's no more unacceptable than bendy footplates or derailing pony wheels - issues which have afflicted other more recent RTR locomotives. Too much oil, too, seeping on to the surface plastic spoiling any weathering. 

 

There is no perfect RTR locomotive, not at anywhere near the low prices asked. Speaking personally, I've made four of my five kit-built O2s (O2s (O2/1, O2/2x2, O2/3 and O2/4), so 'I'm all right Jack'. That said, one or two Heljan O2s will definitely run on Little Bytham. They pull more than my two sheet-metal O2s, anyway. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[teaky]

I'm sorry but I've no idea what the wagons weigh. 

 

When you visited Little Bytham last year (I think I've got that right, but it's easier to remember real names) you would have seen most of the train in the Down kick-back sidings. It consists almost exclusively of Bachmann/Hornby wagons with a few plastic-kit-built ones. All run freely and are lubricated, so rolling resistance is minimised. That said, it's still a substantial train.

 

Your point about the extra cost is well-made, but it must be remembered that there are a lot more variations of this model than of a Hornby O1, Bachmann O4 or Austerity. Other than livery and small detail variations, each is really just one model. With the Heljan O2/3-O2/4 there are different tenders and different boilers to consider, as well as livery types. Add on to that the extra differences when the O2/1 and O2/2s appear - different footplates, cabs and a GNR tender. I wonder what the cost would have been for a Bachmann O4 if O4/5s, O4/6s, O4/7s and O4/8s had been offered as well. 

 

You're also right about mis-moulding being unacceptable, but that's no more unacceptable than bendy footplates or derailing pony wheels - issues which have afflicted other more recent RTR locomotives. Too much oil, too, seeping on to the surface plastic spoiling any weathering. 

 

There is no perfect RTR locomotive, not at anywhere near the low prices asked. Speaking personally, I've made four of my five kit-built O2s (O2s (O2/1, O2/2x2, O2/3 and O2/4), so 'I'm all right Jack'. That said, one or two Heljan O2s will definitely run on Little Bytham. They pull more than my two sheet-metal O2s, anyway. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

 

I think you've answered my question about weight and it is reasonable to assume around 30g per wagon.  Quite a train!

 

On the other point I would level exactly the same criticism at other models and I think others have done just that.  Note that nothing I said related to the pragmatic limitations made in the design which Grahame has articulated in earlier posts.  I find these acceptable.  However, I do think Heljan have some issues with quality control at the moment which means that people need to buy with care which is exactly what I expect to be doing once the O2/2 comes on the market.

 

Regards,

Rob