East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[stewartingram]

Were the 108s really lightweights? I know the 79xxx series were built of aluminium, but were the 108s steel?

 

Stewart

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Were the 108s really lightweights? I know the 79xxx series were built of aluminium, but were the 108s steel?

 

Stewart

The 108s were a few tons lighter than some others e.g. Class 101, and the trailer cars slightly less than a 105's trailer cars but hardly lightweight compared to the 79XXXs

[Pannier Tank]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Were the 108s really lightweights? I know the 79xxx series were built of aluminium, but were the 108s steel?

 

Stewart

 

You are right Stewart, I stand corrected. I'm getting them mixed up with the 79xxx Derby Lightweights which replaced the Derby Units. 

[stewartingram]

18 minutes ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

You are right Stewart, I stand corrected. I'm getting them mixed up with the 79xxx Derby Lightweights which replaced the Derby Units. 

That wasn't a pop at you btw, more a general question. I've seen the 108s called "lightweights" a number of times, just wondered if they really were in the same league as the 79xxx.

 

Stewart

[stewartingram]

On the same theme, the 101s from Met-Camm - which to me really had a heavy look to them - had predecessors in the earlier ones also in the 79xxx series. Were these early ones alloy, or steel? On a technical level, they were "yellow diamond", with the 101s being "blue square" wiring, so were incompatible with one another. Technical matters like this aside, was there much of a design change between them, or was it more of an update in design?

 

Stewart

[Pannier Tank]

5 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

That wasn't a pop at you btw, more a general question. I've seen the 108s called "lightweights" a number of times, just wondered if they really were in the same league as the 79xxx.

 

Stewart

 

None taken Stewart. I think I was confusing Derby & Derby Lightweights, must be my age! The Derby Lightweights didn't last long as they were replaced by the Class 105 Craven Units. 

[Chris116]

4 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

That wasn't a pop at you btw, more a general question. I've seen the 108s called "lightweights" a number of times, just wondered if they really were in the same league as the 79xxx.

 

Stewart

According to the Colin Marsden book DMU and EMU Recognition Guide the Derby Lightweight DMBS (79008-79046) were 27 tonnes. The Class 107 DMBS (51985-52010) were 35 tonnes and the Class 108 DMBS (50599-50629) were 29.5 tonnes.

[Markmiller2008]

12 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Were the 108s really lightweights? I know the 79xxx series were built of aluminium, but were the 108s steel?

 

Stewart

 

108s are made of Aluminum too.

 

Mark

[caradoc]

15 hours ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

There were a few Oxford to Cambridge / Cambridge to Oxford that crossed at Bletchley which stopped all other through traffic whilst this took place. I often used to watch the 15:50 to Oxford and the 15:53 to Cambridge which were the Derby Lightweights (Class 108) DMU's. Invariably they were on time, not like today, which run when they feel like it!.

 

It has always seemed strange to me how few trains ran through between Oxford and Cambridge, considering the size and importance (in academic terms at least !) of the two cities. In 1966 for example, there were only four through trains from Oxford to Cambridge, at 0753 (which stopped almost everywhere), 0944 (express), 1432 (stopper) and 1848 (express after Bletchley). Perhaps getting a path across the WCML was an issue even then ? Presumably building platforms on the flyover was impractical, although now planned for East/West Rail.

[Mike Storey]

17 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

It has always seemed strange to me how few trains ran through between Oxford and Cambridge, considering the size and importance (in academic terms at least !) of the two cities. In 1966 for example, there were only four through trains from Oxford to Cambridge, at 0753 (which stopped almost everywhere), 0944 (express), 1432 (stopper) and 1848 (express after Bletchley). Perhaps getting a path across the WCML was an issue even then ? Presumably building platforms on the flyover was impractical, although now planned for East/West Rail.

 

Until Sectorisation, inter-regional trains were largely ignored as a good source of revenue, largely due to regional, internal interests and the difficulties of generating interest between regions. So the daily number of inter-regionals was limited, bar Trans-Pennine and Summer Specials perhaps. (Cue avalanche of examples contradicting that....).

 

But Regional Railways came too late for the Oxford - Cambridge route.

[caradoc]

Good point Mike, I don't suppose being split between three Regions helped !

 

[1E BoY]

7 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Good point Mike, I don't suppose being split between three Regions helped !

 

 

Up until nationalisation (1/1/48), Bletchley was the hub of the LNWR/LMS operations in the area which stretched to Aylesbury, Dunstable, Banbury, Newport Pagnell etc. as well as Oxford and Cambridge. There were LNWR / LMS sheds at both Oxford and Cambridge which came under Bletchley. At Oxford, Rewley Road was the LMS station adjacent to the GWR one. The structure was subsequently moved to Quainton Road where it is in use as an exhibition hall. Oxford MRC operated a very impressive exhibition layout of this station for many years.

 

Bletchley crews were often sent to the sub-sheds to cover vacancies particularly during WW2 which brought with much additional traffic. After 1948 the need for separate sheds was gradually eliminated and motive power and crews would have been supplied from the former GWR shed at Oxford and from the former LNER shed at Cambridge. 1E BoY spent many a happy hour watching Westerns, Warships and Hymeks heading over the flyover in the late 1960s. Former LNER locomotives were regular performers in steam days but not GWR ones, BR standards were supplied by the WR for such work. 

 

Bletchley was also the home base for other staff too. My grandfather was a signalman (and recalled in the early days of the war to the newly established London Division control office located under platform 8 now 6). It was during an early posting to Lord's Bridge near Cambridge that he met my grandmother who lived in the area. He lodged in the pub near the station which was run by one of her relations.

 

Up until sectorisation, Bletchley crews signed various routes (link dependent) which took them to far more locations than the current crews experience and of course using all available traction for freight, parcels and passenger workings. Can anyone remember the long line of 25's (see 1985 shot below) standing behind what is now Platform 6 on what locals referred to as the Field sidings? It was close to the Co-op fields, which was during my youth home to various football teams including the railway team which had its own sports ground at the far end.  

[rodent279]

25 minutes ago, 1E BoY said:

 

Up until nationalisation (1/1/48), Bletchley was the hub of the LNWR/LMS operations in the area which stretched to Aylesbury, Dunstable, Banbury, Newport Pagnell etc. as well as Oxford and Cambridge. There were LNWR / LMS sheds at both Oxford and Cambridge which came under Bletchley. At Oxford, Rewley Road was the LMS station adjacent to the GWR one. The structure was subsequently moved to Quainton Road where it is in use as an exhibition hall. Oxford MRC operated a very impressive exhibition layout of this station for many years.

 

Bletchley crews were often sent to the sub-sheds to cover vacancies particularly during WW2 which brought with much additional traffic. After 1948 the need for separate sheds was gradually eliminated and motive power and crews would have been supplied from the former GWR shed at Oxford and from the former LNER shed at Cambridge. 1E BoY spent many a happy hour watching Westerns, Warships and Hymeks heading over the flyover in the late 1960s. Former LNER locomotives were regular performers in steam days but not GWR ones, BR standards were supplied by the WR for such work. 

 

Bletchley was also the home base for other staff too. My grandfather was a signalman (and recalled in the early days of the war to the newly established London Division control office located under platform 8 now 6). It was during an early posting to Lord's Bridge near Cambridge that he met my grandmother who lived in the area. He lodged in the pub near the station which was run by one of her relations.

 

Up until sectorisation, Bletchley crews signed various routes (link dependent) which took them to far more locations than the current crews experience and of course using all available traction for freight, parcels and passenger workings. Can anyone remember the long line of 25's (see 1985 shot below) standing behind what is now Platform 6 on what locals referred to as the Field sidings? It was close to the Co-op fields, which was during my youth home to various football teams including the railway team which had its own sports ground at the far end.  

I well remember those long rows of 25's, later 31's. Also lines of Presflo cement hoppers, either unloading at BY, or waiting to be tripped to/from Pitstone. I also remember the Wolverton stone train coming over the flyover around 11am, headed by a 56. I worked in the Telephone Rentals building, the smaller one right next to the fast lines, which used to say Telephone Rentals PLC on the wall facing the railway. The stone train used to make the building rattle, as did every passing WCML express.

[Pannier Tank]

1 hour ago, 1E BoY said:

Can anyone remember the long line of 25's (see 1985 shot below) standing behind what is now Platform 6 on what locals referred to as the Field sidings?

 

I used to pop down the station most weekends to see the 25's & 31's Stabled in the Field Sidings. Happy Days. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

It has always seemed strange to me how few trains ran through between Oxford and Cambridge, considering the size and importance (in academic terms at least !) of the two cities. In 1966 for example, there were only four through trains from Oxford to Cambridge, at 0753 (which stopped almost everywhere), 0944 (express), 1432 (stopper) and 1848 (express after Bletchley). Perhaps getting a path across the WCML was an issue even then ? Presumably building platforms on the flyover was impractical, although now planned for East/West Rail.

I think there had been only the four weekday through trains for a good many years.  The 1963 Summer timetable shows only four as well.  If I go back to 1952 the Western public timetables didn't even acknowledge the existence of the trains (and my 1940s LMS and LNER public books are deeply packed away).  In 1963 the fastest train only took 2 hours but as you say the stoppers were much slower although even then the journey would have been quicker than via London.

 

But the $64,000 question is just how many folk in the early 1960s actually wanted to travel from Oxford to Cambridge and vice versa, or even from Oxford to Bletchley?   The line was really a local service for intermediate communities rather than any other passengers and a fairly important freight route but that was about all.  And even then the local patronage was pretty patchy from what little I saw of it on occasional spotting trips to Oxford (and I didn't even consider it for a spotting trip to Bletchley when I could access the WCML in London far more easily from where I lived)

[D826]

Wouldn't LMS activity pre 1948 have been concentrated on Aylesbury High Street  (the 1841 branch from Cheddington) ?  Aylesbury itself would have been dominated by the LNER and GWR on the branch from Risborough wouldn't it ?

 

The Cheddington branch was used to stable redundant 16 ton minerals in the late 60's - (at the back of where Broughton is, and either side of the level crossing by what was the Prince of Wales pub).  

 

Also the original routing for the Master Cutler was up the GC metals.

 

Always thought Aylesbury would have been amazing if there had been a connection from Aylesbury High Street to Aylesbury Town.

 

Best regards

 

Matt W

[rodent279]

17 minutes ago, D826 said:

Wouldn't LMS activity pre 1948 have been concentrated on Aylesbury High Street  (the 1841 branch from Cheddington) ?  Aylesbury itself would have been dominated by the LNER and GWR on the branch from Risborough wouldn't it ?

 

The Cheddington branch was used to stable redundant 16 ton minerals in the late 60's - (at the back of where Broughton is, and either side of the level crossing by what was the Prince of Wales pub).  

 

Also the original routing for the Master Cutler was up the GC metals.

 

Always thought Aylesbury would have been amazing if there had been a connection from Aylesbury High Street to Aylesbury Town.

 

Best regards

 

Matt W

Had that happened, electrification from Aylesbury at 25kV linking in to Cheddington might well have seen off the GC at the time of Serpell, if not earlier.

[31A]

When Cambridge-Bedford was up for closure my late father was involved with a campaign to prevent it.  I seem to recall it being said that the ER were keen to introduce longer distance services even then, e.g. to / from Norwich, but the other regions weren't interested.  I also seem to remember it was said that the LM opposed Conductor Guard working so the stations remained staffed until closure, despite the ER already having introduced Paytrains on several other lines in East Anglia - ironic if true, as the Bedford-Bletchley section already had Conductor Guard working and still does, although I'm not sure whether all the stations on that section were unstaffed at the time.

 

[08221]

A few photos of BY station stabling point over the years...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by 08221
Spilling mostook

[Pannier Tank]

18 minutes ago, 31A said:

When Cambridge-Bedford was up for closure my late father was involved with a campaign to prevent it.  I seem to recall it being said that the ER were keen to introduce longer distance services even then, e.g. to / from Norwich, but the other regions weren't interested.  I also seem to remember it was said that the LM opposed Conductor Guard working so the stations remained staffed until closure, despite the ER already having introduced Paytrains on several other lines in East Anglia - ironic if true, as the Bedford-Bletchley section already had Conductor Guard working and still does, although I'm not sure whether all the stations on that section were unstaffed at the time.

 

 

I seem to recall that when the Oxford to Bletchley and Bedford to Cambridge sections were closed that the Bletchley to Bedford section became a Conductor Guard Working and that all stations became un-staffed Halts. 

[Rugd1022]

Some Bletchley photos (plus one of the old Bedford St.Johns) taken in 1983 / 84 by Richard Coleman, a member on here who rarely posts...

 

 

[chris p bacon]

15 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Some Bletchley photos (plus one of the old Bedford St.Johns) taken in 1983 / 84 by Richard Coleman, a member on here who rarely posts...

 

 

I'm guessing they're the old Oxford bays on the left.

 

When we spotted at Bletchley we didn't venture too far and generally didn't have cameras.

[Pannier Tank]

2 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I'm guessing they're the old Oxford bays on the left.

 

 

Platform's 1 & 2 were the Oxford Branch Platforms.

 

Platform 1 was removed and Platform 2 converted to North & South Bays during the reconstruction circa 1963 / 64. The photograph shows the South End Bay. Which was used for loading Royal Mail Vans that would be attached to the Down night Mail after the Oxford trains stopped running.

[rodent279]

31 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Some Bletchley photos (plus one of the old Bedford St.Johns) taken in 1983 / 84 by Richard Coleman, a member on here who rarely posts...

 

 

Awesome set of photos! So Presflos were a common sight at BY, it wasn't just my mind playing tricks!

[Pannier Tank]

36 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Some Bletchley photos (plus one of the old Bedford St.Johns) taken in 1983 / 84 by Richard Coleman, a member on here who rarely posts...

 

08 704 looks like she was recently out-shopped from Swindon Works having just been dual-braked; I would say early 1984.