Modelling a traditional parcels train

[Metr0Land]

Hope it's not too far    but London area LMS searchlights can be found here

 

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/London/CWJ.htm

Edited December 28, 2014 by Metr0Land

[The Stationmaster]

The person on the footplate's looking back and asking 'What happened to the rest of the train..?'

Is this taken somewhere near Mirfield, which had some sort of 4-aspect signalling? Those 'searchlight' signals behind the train are unusual, at least to me- they remind me of some that used to be on part of the DC Lines out of Euston.

Heaton Lodge Jcn was one of the fringes for the Mirfield experimental scheme.  It was not 4 aspect signalling as is normally understood in Britain but it did use multiple aspects and was basically a system of speed signalling - there is a detailed, illustrated. explanation of it here -

 

www.signalbox.org/signals/lmsspeed.htm

 

(sorry but for some reason the link won't paste so I have copied it but it still won't show as a link - seems to be a common problem with Firefox but it should work if you copy and paste it)

Edited December 28, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[APOLLO]

Mirfield LMS Speed signalling.

 

http://www.signalbox.org/signals/lmsspeed.htm

 

http://www.railsigns.uk/sect6page3/sect6page3.html

 

Complicated to say the least.

 

Brit15

[Michael Delamar]

46490 at Dudley (pjs 360) by geoff7918, on Flickr

[Porcy Mane]

Hymec and Gresley.

 

 

The guy who posted the photo on smugmug is asking for help identifying the locos (and Locations?)

P

[gwrrob]

To rekindle this thread and a nice photo easily replicated with the use of rtr stock.Very modellable.

 

[Weaselfish]

Great photo but parcels stock is new territory for me. What stock have we got here please? I think I might just recognise a Fruit D one vehicle from the end but that's as far as my 'knowledge' goes...  

[Metr0Land]

2 x LMS 50' BG's and a BR Mk1 BG leading?

[Southernman46]

Hymec and Gresley.

 

 

The guy who posted the photo on smugmug is asking for help identifying the locos (and Locations?)

P

Did this get an answer ? - looks like the London end of Pangbourne station

[Porcy Mane]

Did this get an answer ? - looks like the London end of Pangbourne station

I sent a message once I'd ID'd the location but nothing has been updated AFAIK.

 

P

[rovex]

Just been catching up on this thread. I presume parcels trains ran prenationalisation on an inter-regional basis.

if that's correct I also presume the trains were fairly mixed depending on the origin and destination of each van.

perhaps someone could shed some light on the scene pre 1948.

And this being the case how quickly post 1948 did this break down

thanks

Dean

[gwrrob]

2 x LMS 50' BG's and a BR Mk1 BG leading?

Would that be the Hornby model R 4233 then.

[Fat Controller]

Would that be the Hornby model R 4233 then.

The BR one is R4619 or 4625 (Railroad); I couldn't see a maroon or crimson ex-LMS one, but they have done it. Bachmann have also covered the type in the past; again, they don't seem to have a crimson or maroon one in the range at present.

[gwrrob]

The BR one is R4619 or 4625 (Railroad); I couldn't see a maroon or crimson ex-LMS one, but they have done it. Bachmann have also covered the type in the past; again, they don't seem to have a crimson or maroon one in the range at present.

It's a LMS maroon one I was after.

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating thread, great photos, many memories jogged!

 

One thought; one question.

 

Surprised that the SR EMUs don't seem to get a nod: MLVs were used on their own, and with trailing vehicles, and there were various PAN (= parcels and newspapers) units at different times.

 

My question is very similar to Rovex's in Post 415: it seems quite a challenge to find pre-BR photos of parcels trains (WarwickshireRailways.com is the only source that I've stumbled upon), and I'm left mystified as to whether there was as much inter-company operation of vans pre-war, as there was inter-regional operation under BR. Does anyone know?

 

I run coarse scale 0 gauge, so am no rivet-counter, but I do like to run formations that look semi-plausible. So, is it OK to have GWR, LMS or LNER vans in my SR parcels and newspaper train?

 

Guidance gratefully received, Kevin

Edited August 14, 2015 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

Fascinating thread, great photos, many memories jogged!

 

One thought; one question.

 

Surprised that the SR EMUs don't seem to get a nod: MLVs were used on their own, and with trailing vehicles, and there were various PAN (= parcels and newspapers) units at different times.

 

My question is very similar to Rovex's in Post 415: it seems quite a challenge to find pre-BR photos of parcels trains (WarwickshireRailways.com is the only source that I've stumbled upon), and I'm left mystified as to whether there was as much inter-company operation of vans pre-war, as there was inter-regional operation under BR. Does anyone know?

 

I run coarse scale 0 gauge, so am no rivet-counter, but I do like to run formations that look semi-plausible. So, is it OK to have GWR, LMS or LNER vans in my SR parcels and newspaper train?

 

Guidance gratefully received, Kevin

 

I rather doubt that, pre-1948, you would have seen any non-SR vehicles on a newspaper train. That would originate in London on SR metals so no reason really for "foreign" vehicles.

 

But some parcels trains would no doubt include other railways' stock as parcels originating elsewhere in the country.

[chrisf]

But some parcels trains would no doubt include other railways' stock as parcels originating elsewhere in the country.

 

That must be right.   Imagine the time and staff required to tranship all those parcels between vehicles at frontier points!

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

That must be right.   Imagine the time and staff required to tranship all those parcels between vehicles at frontier points!

 

Chris

I believe that was one reason why the GWR was forced to adopt the narrow gauge

[Fat Controller]

There was a regular working involving a Siphon (sub-type unknown) from Nottingham to Neyland, albeit attached to various passenger workings. Apparently, this was tobacco traffic; were the denizens of Pembrokeshire big consumers of Senior Service?

Apart from that, Bogie Scenery Vans would work around the country with Repretory Companies and circuses.

David Gould's excellent book on SR Passenger Vans has quite a lot on booked workings for SR Vans, though most of the details their roaming off the SR is from BR days.

[Nearholmer]

Thanks chaps.

 

I'd still like to see photos of parcels vans "off company" before 1948 to totally convince me.

 

This is partly because I have a feeling that the railways own parcel services were in competition with one another between major towns. And, partly because the post office operates on a "hub and spoke" basis, which does involve unloading and re-sorting at the hubs, so that if each spoke was contracted to one railway company, no need for inter-running of vans.

 

The exceptions like the tobacco (wasn't there a dock at/near Neyland, implying export to Eire or the US?) and Palethorpe's sausages I do understand.

 

Kevin

[Fat Controller]

Thanks chaps.

 

I'd still like to see photos of parcels vans "off company" before 1948 to totally convince me.

 

This is partly because I have a feeling that the railways own parcel services were in competition with one another between major towns. And, partly because the post office operates on a "hub and spoke" basis, which does involve unloading and re-sorting at the hubs, so that if each spoke was contracted to one railway company, no need for inter-running of vans.

 

The exceptions like the tobacco (wasn't there a dock at/near Neyland, implying export to Eire or the US?) and Palethorpe's sausages I do understand.

 

Kevin

Neyland was a port (in fact, it wasn't much else), but by the time this tobacco traffic was running, the only vessels using it were fishing boats, as the ferries had decamped to Fishguard. 

Competition between railways for parcels traffic was only viable when there were roughly similar routes; though the LMS had a significant presence at Swansea, for instance, I doubt that any London traffic used the LMS routes, as it would have to go via Shrewsbury or Hereford before heading east. However, there was a through mails and parcels train to York, which would have implied LMS stock working off LMS metals at one end of its journey. Similarily, there was a service from Aberystwyth (GWR) to York. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks chaps.

 

I'd still like to see photos of parcels vans "off company" before 1948 to totally convince me.

 

This is partly because I have a feeling that the railways own parcel services were in competition with one another between major towns. And, partly because the post office operates on a "hub and spoke" basis, which does involve unloading and re-sorting at the hubs, so that if each spoke was contracted to one railway company, no need for inter-running of vans.

 

The exceptions like the tobacco (wasn't there a dock at/near Neyland, implying export to Eire or the US?) and Palethorpe's sausages I do understand.

 

Kevin

 

But we are not talking post office parcels here. They would be on mail trains in GPO vehicles. We are talking about railway parcels which would have been collected from a factory/warehouse, taken down to the local station and then dispatched to wherever in the country.

Some of those would indeed have been transhipped en route. The railways employed vast armies of men at key points on the network to load/unload vans, but only where there was a part load. If there was a full van load, the van would be shunted into another train to go forward.

But even so, on the cross-country routes in particular, there would have been LMS and LNER parcels vehicles travelling over GW metals on through trains and GW vehicles getting "up north".

No airfreight back then either so parcels would need to have got on to the Southern for shipment across the Channel.

Of course, much of this parcels traffic was not in dedicated trains (as per this thread) but hung on the back of passenger workings. It was quite common for there to be as many (and more) vans in a train as passenger coaches. I have a book which can probably illustrate this with pics. Will check tomorrow.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Can't supply photos, but a quick look at the GWR Carriage Working Notices from 1938-9 on Robert Carroll's BR Loco-Hauled Coaching Stock Yahoo group shows that there were not many purely parcels trains, most trafiic was attached to passenger workings. It turns up a lot of interesting workings such as:-

 

2.25pm Perishables Penzance to Crewe which conveyed an LMS brake from Penzance to Carlisle, A GW Brake from Penzance to Leeds and picked up a GW Brake from Yeovil Town to Manchester Exchange attached at Taunton.

 

1.25am Crewe - Cardiff conveyed a Siphon G from Manchester Exchange to Neyland.

 

1.35am Crewe - Cardiff Mails conveyed LMS Fish Trucks from Aberdeen to Bristol.

 

5.20pm Westbury to York conveyed LNE Brake Vans from Trowbridge to Glasgow and Westbury to Edinburgh.

 

Other references include a GW Siphon C from Manchester to Calne, a GW Siphon H from Neyland to Sheffield and another Siphon from Helston to Sheffield

[rovex]

So, pre-nationalisation the likelihood is that parcels van would have been attached to a passing passenger train. Detached on route and attached to something else going in the right direction. Correct?

 

If so would make for some interesting haunting movements in a station

[Joseph_Pestell]

So, pre-nationalisation the likelihood is that parcels van would have been attached to a passing passenger train. Detached on route and attached to something else going in the right direction. Correct?

 

If so would make for some interesting haunting movements in a station

I think that predictive text has struck again. But many such shunt movements would indeed have happened during the night.

 

In my researches into Cheltenham Lansdown, I have come across some regular detaching of parcels vans at Lansdown  from LMS trains to be taken forward by the GW over the MSJW.