BBC2 The Railway: Keeping Britain on Track

[Steve Williams]

They might point out that you are getting the product cheaper because it's put on the shelf for self-service so that's where your refund comes from. The same reason you pay for items to be delivered when you order on-line, there is extra cost and it's passed on to you.

 

Phil

The real reason we are getting the stuff cheaper of course, is because they buy in bulk and screw the supplier down mercilessly. Off-topic, I know, but I would happily pay an extra five pence or so, for milk, if I knew that it would be passed on to the dairy farmer, thus ensuring they have a reasonable standard of living and also ensuring the herds of dairy cows were preserved.

[RJS1977]

.

 

By the same logic, why should those who don't use trains have to (via taxes) subsidise those who do?

 

As Steve said earlier, "because it is the right thing to do"?

 

Ed

 The difference is that if the rail services weren't subsidised, that would lead to fewer passengers and hence more traffic on the roads, thus inconveniencing the non-rail users. So the non-rail users are still getting benefit from subsidy of public transport even though they're not using it!

[Ron Ron Ron]

Apparently £20 was the lost property charge for a laptop, back at the end of BR days, according to a comment on another forum.

I've no idea how true or accurate that is though?

As already stated, someone has to pay for the provision of this service and IMHO it's only fair that it's the person who is responsible for losing their stuff, who should cover the cost.

[winterbournecm]

I enjoyed the Tube programme recently, and also enjoyed this BBC production too. Some of my colleagues on the WR, Ray Thompson MOM and Swindon Control guys briefly featured too.

 

I sometimes question the move back to the slower pace of life, mechanical signalling and a better "family feel" with my colleagues. Watching the frantic pace of life up the line, the pressure, the blame culture and most of all folk in some top positions who spout purile dross all day. I know I've done the right thing.

 

I realised long ago that the art of talking the talk at interviews etc pays far more qualification than 20 odd years of experience.

[Kenton]

old lady left behind

It may not be PC - but why not? That old lady these days has access to platform assistance (or whatever it is called these days) should have to turn up in adequate time to get herself on to the train rather than delaying others, and if she is ga ga then probably should be in care. The train timetable should (ideally) place the train at a location on the scheduled time to allow the expected number of passengers to board and then depart to the next station, to arrive early or on time. The passenger side of that contract should be to be there in advance of the "arrival" time and to board in an efficient manner. If you are late then you do not have any right to make everyone else late.

The real reason we are getting the stuff cheaper of course, is because they buy in bulk and screw the supplier down mercilessly. Off-topic, I know, but I would happily pay an extra five pence or so, for milk, if I knew that it would be passed on to the dairy farmer, thus ensuring they have a reasonable standard of living and also ensuring the herds of dairy cows were preserved.

Coming from a farming family, I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just the price paid to the farmer for a pint of milk and the apparent unbalanced distribution of "cost" paid to the farmer, distributor, processor, wholesaler, retail chain. Certainly more involved than the NFU or "Organic" lobby would like the public to believe. Besides I don't want cows "preserved" in aspic I'd rather have mine rendered down and served up in my horse burgers.

The difference is that if the rail services weren't subsidised, that would lead to fewer passengers and hence more traffic on the roads, thus inconveniencing the non-rail users. So the non-rail users are still getting benefit from subsidy of public transport even though they're not using it!

Then the subsidy could be spent on better/more roads. The idea that the railway takes cars off roads needs to be set against the fact that the railway is no longer the network we once had. How many of these rail travellers require a car or some other public transport to get to and from the train? It seems I'm alone in the view (unsurprising on a social network with a railway bias) that while government (public) "investment" in the new capital projects extending the railway or its capacity is perhaps OK - the subsidising the daily commute of the passenger definitely is not.

[Phil Parker]

Then the subsidy could be spent on better/more roads. The idea that the railway takes cars off roads needs to be set against the fact that the railway is no longer the network we once had. How many of these rail travellers require a car or some other public transport to get to and from the train? It seems I'm alone in the view (unsurprising on a social network with a railway bias) that while government (public) "investment" in the new capital projects extending the railway or its capacity is perhaps OK - the subsidising the daily commute of the passenger definitely is not.

 

We're veering off topic, but I'd like to pick this up.

 

Where would you put the "more roads"?

 

Railways are very efficient at delivering large numbers of people to town and city centres. If everyone took a car instead, "more roads" would involve knocking down a lot of buildings. Even more would have to be sacrificed for the parking. You could argue every city should be leveled and then re-built around cars but then you end up with Coventry. The cost and complaints would be pretty serious.

 

A good example is near me in Warwick. Most of the rush hour traffic has to travel down a narrow street with listed buildings on both sides. They can't use a bypass or other road for the journeys. The solution to freeing up traffic would be to widen this road but that means spending millions to buy the buildings, and then knocking half of them down. On top of this you'll be hounded by heritage groups and fighting legal battles all the way. This is why no-one will touch the idea,

 

This is a small town. Most towns already have a lack of parking supply. Cities are even worse. Railways are far from a dead idea. While most people will drive to the train, there are ways to deal with this such as a Parkway Station. The fact that we no longer have the nework we did is regretable but not insurmountable. You could say the same about street tramways which we disposed of but European cities seem to find very useful.

 

Phil

[James]

I watched the Reading programme this morning and one of the highlights must have been the BTP Christmas tree

 

I also noted just how miserable the travelling public can be en masse - I'm very pleased I don't work deirectly with the public and have huge admiration for those on the railway who do!

[winterbournecm]

The "buzz words" were fab. We used to ting our cups with a spoon if anyone dared mention one:

• we need to understand
• what are the issues?
• have we closed this out now?
• Whats the timeline?
• Its a win - win

Probably a subject for a thread itself. Camisole management I used to call it - visible but no actual support whatsoever! 

[martin_wynne]

I would happily pay an extra five pence or so, for milk, if I knew that it would be passed on to the dairy farmer, thus ensuring they have a reasonable standard of living and also ensuring the herds of dairy cows were preserved.

 

The local convenience shops here have milk direct from a local farm/dairy:

 

 http://www.mawleytownfarm.co.uk/

 

Old-fashioned milk with the cream on top. Same price as the bulk stuff.

 

Martin.

[James]

There's a lovely clip on the BBC's site -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p015m4r9

 

I love the 'sarcastic bells' comment!

[EddieB]

There's a lovely clip on the BBC's site -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p015m4r9

 

I love the 'sarcastic bells' comment!

"This is 'proper railway'".

 

Amen.

[Steve Williams]

 

Coming from a farming family, I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just the price paid to the farmer for a pint of milk and the apparent unbalanced distribution of "cost" paid to the farmer, distributor, processor, wholesaler, retail chain. Certainly more involved than the NFU or "Organic" lobby would like the public to believe. Besides I don't want cows "preserved" in aspic I'd rather have mine rendered down and served up in my horse burgers.

 

 

I'm sure there is. I hardly think that the present situation helps, however.

[James]

"This is 'proper railway'".

His comment about it being a more 'organic' environment was interesting - the loss of the hands on feel of signal boxes (both lever frames and to a certain extent panels) is something which many signaller sympathise with.

 

A way of will ultimately be lost.

[APOLLO]

 Watching the frantic pace of life up the line, the pressure, the blame culture and most of all folk in some top positions who spout purile dross all day. I know I've done the right thing.

 

I realised long ago that the art of talking the talk at interviews etc pays far more qualification than 20 odd years of experience.

 

 

 

Exactly the same in the Gas industry, (where I spent over 40 happy years but now glad I'm out of it) and I suspect many more places also. Its the way of the world at the moment. Many reasons, mostly political and better not discussed here.

 

Someone suggested to build more roads ?. Who for ? The rich ? For that is the only people that will be able to afford to drive in a few years time. Petrol is nearly £7 a gallon. In a couple of years expect £10+. Alot more if it kicks off over in the middle east.

 

We will need all our railways, and more, as time progresses. Re-nationalisation may yet come about, again a political question.

 

Brit15

[Captain Kernow]

The "buzz words" were fab. We used to ting our cups with a spoon if anyone dared mention one:

• we need to understand
• what are the issues?
• have we closed this out now?
• Whats the timeline?
• Its a win - win

Probably a subject for a thread itself. Camisole management I used to call it - visible but no actual support whatsoever! 

 

I like this, but unfortunately an error has occurred, and I have reached my quota of positive votes for the day.

[The Stationmaster]

The "buzz words" were fab. We used to ting our cups with a spoon if anyone dared mention one:

• we need to understand
• what are the issues?
• have we closed this out now?
• Whats the timeline?
• Its a win - win

Probably a subject for a thread itself. Camisole management I used to call it - visible but no actual support whatsoever! 

I first began to encounter this sort of garbage with a chap who became my immediate boss in the 1980s and who had previously been bag carrier for the Board Chairman.  This bloke would come out with warped English such as 'I have met with' which translated as 'I've just been to a meeting' and 'I was talking to so & so' meaning 'when I was at the meeting I actually said something'.  Great bloke at buzzwords and t seemed to stand him in good stead as he finished up working for Railtrack.

 

Fortunately in my final big railway job I was among quite a  few time served railwaymen, in fact I think were ultimately fairly unusual as an operating company in that respect, and while most of them never used that sort of language a few from outside did but quickly learnt that it didn't work on me so stopped using it in my presence.

[Adam]

 I would argue that adherence to 'right time' is never the cause of a lost connection. The cause is element(s) in the connection not running right time. The railway is of its nature a utilitarian instrument, and on that principle the only permitted deviation from a right time departure is when there is known to be recovery potential sufficient for right time arrival at whatever is the next timed point. Which probably means generally no deviations, no discretion, old lady left behind. I have read several accounts of railway managements tightening up on this principle; and by and large the passengers pretty rapidly got educated on their role in enabling the service to run properly.

 

However, the last such account dates from the 1960s, when self-discipline was a concept still held in high regard, and those who suffered as a result of lack of it got short shrift. So this is probably 'dream on' territory...

 

It isn't as if the railway doesn't try in this regard; there are no shortage of announcements, notices and the odd patient member of staff to explain that trains now have central locking and no amount of hammering on the door button will change this... Passenger education is tricky, however; observational evidence is that customers don't read or don't listen in any situation (customers used deliberately here; it isn't only the railways). SWT and Cross Coutry seem to have made some efforts to explain this in every available fashion at Southampton for example.

 

Yes it's frustrating when the down FGW Cardiff service is late enough for me to miss my connection at Salisbury - the Exeter service is often held in the Tisbury loop after all - but I do understand why this is and cheerfully pop into Salisbury to grab a coffee; no amount of ranting or muttering will resolve the situation. One route is running to time, the other isn't.

 

Adam

[James]

One of the best phrases I've heard to describe the use of 'buzzwords' within our organisation is to say someone has been "touched by the hand of Westwood"

[RJS1977]

What's the Hornby HQ got to do with it?

[James]

What's the Hornby HQ got to do with it?

If you were NWR, you'd know - worth googling and you may understand what I meant!

[PaulRhB]

Yes it's frustrating when the down FGW Cardiff service is late enough for me to miss my connection at Salisbury - the Exeter service is often held in the Tisbury loop after all - but I do understand why this is and cheerfully pop into Salisbury to grab a coffee; no amount of ranting or muttering will resolve the situation. One route is running to time, the other isn't.

 

There's actually a 5 minute hold available at Salisbury on the Exeter service, IF the guard rings Salisbury to request it! Frequently for the known busy ones the SWT staff actually hold it anyway by asking their control but if its not asked for the panel can't hold it as we pick up the delay despite the time in Tisbury loop. We do ask when known people are on who wouldn't think to check but the best guarantee is to ask the guard to ring ahead.

The timetable is built around Southampton and Westbury not Salisbury so we get everything in big rushes which means any hold knocks other trains immediately. The fact that we only have one Up platform which doesn't have an exit across all the down ones doesn't help regulating flexibility. Unfortunately our push to get platform 1 back into passenger use was bogged down by cost and mostly the difficulty in accessing the depot during the installation of the trap points that would be required either end to protect 1 from the depot and sidings. Depending on the rumours of cost saving or just design when it was built means one entrance to the depot really creates a bottleneck and its the only one for the diesel fleet.

 

Westwood is the Network Rail Management / training Centre

[Adam]

Thanks Paul, that's very interesting. I'll keep my views about the willingness of FGW guards to actually emerge from the rear cab and engage with passengers to myself.

Interesting too that Salisbury are prepared to make that effort - I remember a conversation with a signaller at Pen Mill, many years ago, who noted that on diversion days, Salisbury would invariably be on the phone to enquire about delays before 'Swindon' (sometime to the tune of an hour or two). Perhaps the legacy of the old SR - fundamentally a commuter network - and its concern for punctuality lives on, albeit by accident?

 

Adam

[bmthtrains - David]

I'm greatly enjoying this series, if only because it is showing the public how they behave in public! Anyone who works in a service related role (transport, retail, police, NHS etc) will be all too familiar with the ghastly and unnecessary anger, ignorance and sometimes bullying behaviour we often have to endure.

 

I would love to take one of those angry passengers and put them on reading station platform for a day as a train dispatcher and see how they get on...

 

David

[Kenton]

I'm greatly enjoying this series, if only because it is showing the public how they behave in public! Anyone who works in a service related role (transport, retail, police, NHS etc) will be all too familiar with the ghastly and unnecessary anger, ignorance and sometimes bullying behaviour we often have to endure.

 

I would love to take one of those angry passengers and put them on reading station platform for a day as a train dispatcher and see how they get on...

 

David

However, the service industry has a responsibility that I think it somewhat lacks these days. I get the feeling that this might be insufficient training, or perhaps over-working, or perhaps just the wrong people in the "job". While the "public" losing temper or becoming aggressive is not the right thing, I think there needs to be an understanding that the lack of information and the wider frustrations can trigger in many if not most people anger, resentment and ill feeling. The public do not readily understand the "job" that is being performed and the requirements placed on them by legal or procedural restrictions. This needs to be explained and in a level of language that is understandable. Simply using a position of authority to "tell" the member of the public to do something that appears to them to be unreasonable is not enough - indeed is likely to add fuel to their resentment. (This happens far too much in the NHS - the doctor knows best attitude).

 

There have been excellent examples in this series of individuals who have shown this aptitude and I expect the the railways are full of people who do put the customer first. They will try to understand the view from the public and will seek to calm the situation by explanation. But they too can sometimes be angry at the way they are treated by the public.

 

For me, there is nothing worse and most likely to make me Mr Angry, than someone in a professional service industry failing to be professional or displaying ineptitude. Too many jobs are about ticking the right box and not enough about understanding the customer. Customer facing skills are not something everyone has and that applies particularly to the "public" who increasingly are confined to their own bubble.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Paul, that's very interesting. I'll keep my views about the willingness of FGW guards to actually emerge from the rear cab and engage with passengers to myself.

 

Interesting too that Salisbury are prepared to make that effort - I remember a conversation with a signaller at Pen Mill, many years ago, who noted that on diversion days, Salisbury would invariably be on the phone to enquire about delays before 'Swindon' (sometime to the tune of an hour or two). Perhaps the legacy of the old SR - fundamentally a commuter network - and its concern for punctuality lives on, albeit by accident?

 

Adam

The Weymouth line - down from Castle Cary to Yeovil and Maiden Newton was 'de-controlled' so Swindon Control had very little interest in it officially although when diversions were taking place they might require monitoring information.  I'm not sure of the date you're talking of but when it was under WR ownership control of the Salisbury - Exeter line was in the hands of the supervisor at Yeovil Jcn who regularly made decisions regarding train regulation and amended crossing instructions.