jukebox Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Did you want some more pics? if not TUFF. Cripes, the finish on that Castle is stunning - or at least your photo is, Andy. Very evocative. It is Clive, and is absolutely huge with lines going everywhere, non-stop activity, express locos galore mixed with long freights, scratchbuilt built buildings aplenty, etc., basically a show winner for the general public and they love it, cramming round it all day long. Leaves me cold though. I guess the thing about "crowd pleasers" like that is that Joe Public want to see something moving. They call locomotives "trains", remember! Nuances aren't noticed. Big engines, long trains, plenty of action are. I can understand your description of being "left cold"; perhaps because it has the veneer of authentcity, but under scrutiny it's a "train set" with lipstick? I do not mean that in a derogatory way, just that it appears to be, as was said above, something from the pages of a Hornby Catalog. Or possible two stuck together! But on the plus side, layouts like that keep the model railway hobby fire burning, and maybe even start the spark in a handful of youngsters. It is, after all a broad church we worship in, right? Cheers Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I'd have to agree with Scott- that it appears to be a train set, but it is one that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, exhibition managers are reluctant to hire in a 80' long layout in order to get a good run between 2 stations. Over here, even with the use of ice arenas for FreeMo, it still isn't common to have anything like real lengths of track between action centres. I'd need about 400 feet of run to go to the "next" station if I was going to model them- either to New Biggin or Appleby. (outside ???) A layout organized as a S with both sides of the middle being (2 track and a centre divider) might work, but it would take about 48' by 28', and require a 5 ton to transport (at least !) It quickly becomes a case where it is no longer practical to make a portable layout like that. James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I went to the SMRE exhibition years ago, mid 70s and there were two crowded layouts. One was Kirkby Lonsdale P4, surrounded by all the "railway modellers". The larger crowd, the "general public" were around the 18'x8' Hornby Dublo train set. The general public must have been the main source of income though. In those days the show ran from Thursday until Sunday in the City Hall, not the two days in an out of city centre school gym. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Cripes, the finish on that Castle is stunning - or at least your photo is, Andy. Very evocative. I guess the thing about "crowd pleasers" like that is that Joe Public want to see something moving. They call locomotives "trains", remember! Nuances aren't noticed. Big engines, long trains, plenty of action are. I can understand your description of being "left cold"; perhaps because it has the veneer of authentcity, but under scrutiny it's a "train set" with lipstick? I do not mean that in a derogatory way, just that it appears to be, as was said above, something from the pages of a Hornby Catalog. Or possible two stuck together! But on the plus side, layouts like that keep the model railway hobby fire burning, and maybe even start the spark in a handful of youngsters. It is, after all a broad church we worship in, right? Cheers Scott I'd have to agree with Scott- that it appears to be a train set, but it is one that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, exhibition managers are reluctant to hire in a 80' long layout in order to get a good run between 2 stations. Over here, even with the use of ice arenas for FreeMo, it still isn't common to have anything like real lengths of track between action centres. I'd need about 400 feet of run to go to the "next" station if I was going to model them- either to New Biggin or Appleby. (outside ???) A layout organized as a S with both sides of the middle being (2 track and a centre divider) might work, but it would take about 48' by 28', and require a 5 ton to transport (at least !) It quickly becomes a case where it is no longer practical to make a portable layout like that. James This was a view I got of the Layout from a Stage at one Show a couple of years back. This shot shows one side. Now the other side and again with the Station to the left. Top corner. Bottom end. One GIANT Train Set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 I went to the SMRE exhibition years ago, mid 70s and there were two crowded layouts. One was Kirkby Lonsdale P4, surrounded by all the "railway modellers". The larger crowd, the "general public" were around the 18'x8' Hornby Dublo train set. The general public must have been the main source of income though. In those days the show ran from Thursday until Sunday in the City Hall, not the two days in an out of city centre school gym. Hi Dave It goes back to the old agrument, are exhibition layouts to entertain the public or to display our modelling skills. A well made and operated model should be able to do both. I am a modeller not a card carrying member of EQUITY. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 The seaside permanent display model railways were certainly poppular with the passing public in years gone by. They were nothing more than huge train sets with every cliche mini scene going. The new one at Mablethorpe, Monks Bay is a little different though, an Allan Downes miniature world, amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 There are some rather dire large layouts out on the exhibition circuit that bear little or no resemblance to the prototype but are always surrounded by people and quite often win Best Layout In Show when voted for by punters, I guess because they like lots of colourful moving things rather than appreciating the effort that has gone into building the layouts in attendance. Same goes for people who vote for layouts that depict the era they are interested in, regardless of whether that layout is shite compared to others there. Fair enough I suppose, they are the layouts that entertained them but it does make me think that when the punters vote for best layout in show, it is meaningless. BCB won the top award at Railex, but voted for by other exhibitors. Thing is, exhibition managers are quite obviously going to book these crowd pleasers, it make sense to but from a personal perspective, I wouldn't want to be stood behind one operating as I would feel dirty As a punter, I tend to only go to society shows (and others I know book quality layouts) nowadays. Maybe I am a layout snob, but I have no interest at all in watching these multi-track action packed layouts nowadays although at some shows they are an advantage as they leave a better, uninterrupted view of the Finescale layouts which are usually smaller. At the Stafford show this year, Humber Dock (minimal space P4) was next to some family fun layout (Stafford MRS's modern image one). I was alone in front of Humber Dock chatting with Ian for over 20 minutes, his small layout is beautifully modelled. The layout next to it (Whiteacres?) was in a throng of punters the whole time and when they moved on, they only cast HD a cursory glance. I guess that if you want a sure fire popular exhibition layout then all you really need to do is smash down a ton of Peco track, open some Skaledale boxes and spend a few grand at Hattons. I would rather build a layout that takes a lot of effort and looks like it did, and only attracts a handful of interested people even if most punters just give it a glance and think 'meh' because I want to feel proud of what I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted June 22, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 Meh... Meh, meh!.... Meh, meh, meh.....!!!!! I agree with a lot of what you say. Jeff Meh..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 *snip* Thing is, exhibition managers are quite obviously going to book these crowd pleasers, it make sense to but from a personal perspective, I wouldn't want to be stood behind one operating as I would feel dirty *snip* I felt that way painting the mankini on 1:76 scale Mankini-Jeff. You lot have only ever seen him from the front... Took me weeks of scrubbing to get that stain from my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 There are some layouts out there in exhibition land where you wonder whether the layout builders have ever seen a real railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted June 22, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 I felt that way painting the mankini on 1:76 scale Mankini-Jeff. You lot have only ever seen him from the front... Took me weeks of scrubbing to get that stain from my mind. Just imagine how I felt when I opened the package and there was a "mini me"!! Jason, too often it's the superficial things that impress people. A Skaledale mill or one you made are the same to the average punter, irrespective of the 100 hours you've spent on it. As long as the loco looks bright, shiny and makes a bit of a noise, they are well pleased. I'd expect kids to look at things that way, but hope that "proper modellers" (are there actually that many around??) might be a bit more discerning. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted June 22, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 There are some layouts out there in exhibition land where you wonder whether the layout builders have ever seen a real railway Often the case in the published media, too. I DON'T think you are being a snob. You aim to build it "as it is" to the best of your ability. Unfortunately, there aren't many like you, so the majority (including myself) settle for less. Ironic that in the era of the internet, when it's never been (relatively) easier to model the prototype, many still produce way-out fantasy models. Rule 1 applies, but such efforts shouldn't be winning "best in show". Now where's my latest Thomas Black 4? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 The first person at an exhibition who asks me in all seriousness whether the buildings on The Mill are Metcalfe ones, I swear I will stamp on their nutsack. When demoing my buildings at Shipley Show over the past couple of years, you would not believe the number of people who referenced Metcalfe buildings, either asking which kits they were, or telling me they had built them and implying I should have used them instead as they are great so I shouldn't have bothered, etc. One cheeky old Git who nearly got punched asked whether the signalbox I slaved over for hours was a Skaledale one. No, it is Jasondale and if you want one the same, the price starts at £150.00 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I'm in the process of painting eyes and mouths on all my kit built rolling stock, because, I can (rule 1) My favourite layout of all time is that well known exact scale Craig & Mertonford Light Railway. I was absolutely enthralled by P.D. Hancock's articles in the Toddler (which let's face it was the RMWeb for us boys in the late 60s & early 70s). I bought the book, which is still in pristine condition after 40 years and is still pulled out and read from cover to cover when I am in need of inspiration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Probably the only large layout which has seriously impressed me was Dewsbury Midland by the MMRS. I know some people would whinge about it being described as Finescale 00, but it does exactly what it's supposed to do and to very good effect! My only complaint is that I've never managed to see it running in steam days, only in blue diesel mode! Regards Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 There are some lovely large layouts out there; Leicester South, Mostyn, Clutton, Dewsbury Midland to name but a few but the majority of decent large layouts are either based on prototype locations or on prototype practice rather than an excuse to have track everywhere. Some layouts, you can be drawn into thinking it is based on a real location even if it is not; you are presented with a miniature view of the real World. Unfortunately, there are as many layouts (if not more) where you look at them and think Why would the real railway be like that? And you know instantly that the answer is 'it wouldn't' and any illusion is shattered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Very true Jason but I sometimes wonder whether we modellers are largely to blame. There are a good few clubs out there who will happily put aside the preferences of their individual members, many of whom are fine modellers in their own right, in favour of a quick-build crowd pleaser rather than stick to their guns and take the time to build something worthwhile! I don't think the current magazines have helped by dumbing-down to the level where Peco, Metcalf and Scaledale becomes the norm rather than the exception! The layouts you mention are lovely things to which I'd add BCB, but how often do you see them other than at exhibitions? It's the reason I don't buy magazines these days other than MRJ. I know a lot of people like to jump on the bandwagon and point out that its the only way to attract younger people into the hobby, but what are they going to produce in their turn if they are not shown how the railways really were? Regards Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 The first person at an exhibition who asks me in all seriousness whether the buildings on The Mill are Metcalfe ones, I swear I will stamp on their nutsack. When demoing my buildings at Shipley Show over the past couple of years, you would not believe the number of people who referenced Metcalfe buildings, either asking which kits they were, or telling me they had built them and implying I should have used them instead as they are great so I shouldn't have bothered, etc. One cheeky old Git who nearly got punched asked whether the signalbox I slaved over for hours was a Skaledale one. No, it is Jasondale and if you want one the same, the price starts at £150.00 Hi Jason, That reminded me of a friend of mine who at one time manufactured 'Gauge 1' coaches, from Pullmans to full brakes and they were stunning, the Pullmans even had place settings and working table lamps! He was attending an exhibition with a demonstration stand taking orders when a 'snob' shall we say said "I am very taken with your corridor connections, tell me how much would a pair of those be?" No please or thank you, as quick as a flash he answered "£800.00 a pair and you get a free coach" Priceless one thinks - what! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 The first person at an exhibition who asks me in all seriousness whether the buildings on The Mill are Metcalfe ones, I swear I will stamp on their nutsack. When demoing my buildings at Shipley Show over the past couple of years, you would not believe the number of people who referenced Metcalfe buildings, either asking which kits they were, or telling me they had built them and implying I should have used them instead as they are great so I shouldn't have bothered, etc. One cheeky old Git who nearly got punched asked whether the signalbox I slaved over for hours was a Skaledale one. No, it is Jasondale and if you want one the same, the price starts at £150.00 Hi Jason and all I was demoing the strange art of scratchbuilding diesels from plastic card, when this boy about 7 years old pointed to my scratchbuilt class 37 and said "That's the Hornby 37, I've got one". If I can fool a 7 year old with my homemade engine I must be doing things right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 I have to agree with every point brought up about exhibiting to the public. Dunster usually makes an appearance at the local show here. I accept that alien layouts are lucky to get more than a glance over here, however, I was surprised when quite a few of the youngsters started recognizing Pannier tanks as Duck and Ivatt tanks as Arther, Brilliant!!! On the one occasion I took Goathland the story was a bit different. I managed to hold a crowd for the best part of two days and was disappointed to not even get a sniff at the voting, loosing out to the Lego exhibit and a fairy tale set up of plastic figurines on an astro turf carpet! The best part of it is to let the kids behind stage and get them to drive the trains. One little chap was dragged screaming from the hall after I suggested to let the next kid who had been watching with him mom have a go. That's how you ignite that little spark! Edit: Note to self. Build two big boxes for the youngsters to sand on. so that they can get a better view!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hi Guys, having read the above comments, all I can say is that my NEW project will probably NOT be welcome, but will be based on prototype practices to a major degree, but NOT 100% accurate as the Buildings will be ready to plant and the track plan will be for operation and enjoyment. Its actually not a lot different to the original KL1 plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2015 The discussion is really about exhibition layouts mate, not home layouts. As said above, a lot of the large exhibition layouts are club built and you would have thought that of a team of people, the end result would sometimes be better but maybe they are specifically building crowd pleasers. What does do my nut in is the sheer number of layouts you see at shows which purport to using RTP stuff to show the public what can be done, with some exhibitions having more than one of them. To me, it says 'this is what I am capable of doing' rather than 'this is what you can do'. Controversial? Moi? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hi Guys, having read the above comments, all I can say is that my NEW project will probably NOT be welcome, but will be based on prototype practices to a major degree, but NOT 100% accurate as the Buildings will be ready to plant and the track plan will be for operation and enjoyment. Its actually not a lot different to the original KL1 plan. You just carry on doing the Andrew thing as you see fit Mister P. It works and we've all seen what a fine job you make of it. There's a big difference between RTP and RTP with a bit of intelligent thought and consideration behind it! Regards Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 The discussion is really about exhibition layouts mate, not home layouts. As said above, a lot of the large exhibition layouts are club built and you would have thought that of a team of people, the end result would sometimes be better but maybe they are specifically building crowd pleasers. What does do my nut in is the sheer number of layouts you see at shows which purport to using RTP stuff to show the public what can be done, with some exhibitions having more than one of them. To me, it says 'this is what I am capable of doing' rather than 'this is what you can do'. Controversial? Moi? You just carry on doing the Andrew thing as you see fit Mister P. It works and we've all seen what a fine job you make of it. There's a big difference between RTP and RTP with a bit of intelligent thought and consideration behind it! Regards Bill I'm thinking along the lines of a traveling Circus or something. :nono: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Psst! You wanna buy a giraffe wagon mate? Got one here, kit built, professionally weathered, just needs wheels and couplings... Love Gostude hat coat roller skates ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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