Sure railway modelling is expensive, but compared to other hobbies...

[TheQ]

The technology battle is why in sailing there are many one design classes. This means those with money only have the advantage of a new set of sails each year. The biggest difference in performance between  boats in the class I sail... The Nut on the end of the helm..

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have a selection of the greatest foamings of the hi-fi press retained for entertainment purposes, to enliven any dull moments. 'The Abso!ute Sound' solidly anchored in pole position. Please understand it had some very sound (ho ho) content from extremely knowledgeable contributors, alongside  the wilder forays.

 

 

For some, and I probably mean mostly men, the ability to spend large sums on 'cool' activities such as mountain biking, golf, snowboarding, motorbikes etc. is seen as a measure of not only wealth and status but an indication of being committed and wanting to be taken seriously in such endeavours...

Mostly men until the advent of pay equality - and I am not suggesting that this is perfect yet - but the equivalent activity is now very evident among women. Clothes, shoes, handbags, phones, and probably other accessories, hair and other 'beauty' treatments; and increasingly cars. Not so very long ago the field of competition was craft dominated (rather like building a model railway!) the cooking, knitting and sewing activity taken beyond the essentials of 'fed and clothed' for display of skill. (My Ma could knit, and some. When Arran pullovers were in fashion we all had the Arranest pullovers you have ever seen. Still have two of them over forty years later, and they are excellent - when the weather is cold enough.)

[brack]

At least in some branches of our hobby people can build things themselves from scratch. Models of the more esoteric prototypes tend to have more self or scratch built stuff and modelling those sort of things is often less consumerist. I can't buy a great deal of what I want, so I'm not tempted to throw Hornby a few hundred quid for a short train. If anyone is disillusioned by the more commercial side of things I'd suggest looking at those modelling light railways, narrow gauge or similar may provide SA bit of perspective. Of course the arrival of RTR 009 and 7mm small locos might eat into those bastions of creativity and originality too.

Of course if operating/running stuff is what you enjoy and what you're after and you haven't time to scratch build the amount of stuff you need/want you might find yourself reaching for the wallet to populate your busy main line. Your choice, but lack of cash need not limit your participation as there are different forms/aspects of our hobby, whereas lack of funds may well impact your ability to amass hi-fi, photographic or high end cycling equipment.

[The Johnster]

My approach is to buy RTR if it's available, build kits if it's not, and scratch build if there's no kit either.  I do not have the necessary skills to scratch build locomotives that run well to the standard of modern RTR, which provides most of the items necessary for my 1950s South Wales BLT.  

 

Scratch, as a material to build model railways out of, is mostly free and often very cheap, but I'm not convinced of it as a way of saving money.  Some materials, such as obviously wheels, motors, and gears, cannot usually be built by even skilled modellers from it, and if you factor in your own time as a cost it can be very expensive indeed.  This comment is not intended to be be a discouragement of scratch or kit building; I have had an enormous amount of pleasure from the forays I have made into this world, even the less successful ones, and the satisfaction when things go well is beyond the wotting of box openers, but I don't unquestioningly buy the idea that scratch or kit building is inherently 'better' than RTR; it's horses for courses.  

 

As things stand it looks as if I am going to have to scratch build the pre- diagram A28/30 auto trailers I need, unless Dapol put their 7mm Diagram N through a 4mm shrinking ray, and I'm considering kit building a 2721 to replace my Hornby.

[jjb1970]

A hobby is about much more than the cost. If we discount those who are primarily interested in displaying their wealth or just being seen in the right circles then it should be about the joy and satisfaction a hobby or interest brings, it is about passion. I really don't begrudge spending money on the things I enjoy and it is remarkable how people are willing to save or make sacrifices elsewhere to pursue their passion. Hobbies such as horse riding, high performance cars, flying etc are generally seen as the preserve of the wealthy yet I know plenty of regular working people who follow these hobbies despite the sacrifices and financial stretch necessary. I know I have said it before in this thread but compared to many of the alternatives railway modelling is not an especially expensive hobby, particularly if you consider that the cost tends to be distributed over an extended period and you can slowly build up a layout and the accompanying stock and accessories. I have spent far more on bikes and hi-fi equipment than any model and been happy about it. Note that this is not an argument that prices are irrelevant or that I am not sceptical about the arguments used to support some prices. Snake oil and outright chicanery is rife in hi-fi for example (too often with magazine reviewers on board and cheer leading) but I have no issue paying for well engineered high performance products even if in rational terms it is daft. That said I would also say people need a sense of perspective. Having known modellers who spent £££££££'s on models while living in squalor I think people need to keep sight of a wider world.

[Jol Wilkinson]

My approach is to buy RTR if it's available, build kits if it's not, and scratch build if there's no kit either.  I do not have the necessary skills to scratch build locomotives that run well to the standard of modern RTR, which provides most of the items necessary for my 1950s South Wales BLT.  

 

Scratch, as a material to build model railways out of, is mostly free and often very cheap, but I'm not convinced of it as a way of saving money.  Some materials, such as obviously wheels, motors, and gears, cannot usually be built by even skilled modellers from it, and if you factor in your own time as a cost it can be very expensive indeed.  This comment is not intended to be be a discouragement of scratch or kit building; I have had an enormous amount of pleasure from the forays I have made into this world, even the less successful ones, and the satisfaction when things go well is beyond the wotting of box openers, but I don't unquestioningly buy the idea that scratch or kit building is inherently 'better' than RTR; it's horses for courses.  

 

As things stand it looks as if I am going to have to scratch build the pre- diagram A28/30 auto trailers I need, unless Dapol put their 7mm Diagram N through a 4mm shrinking ray, and I'm considering kit building a 2721 to replace my Hornby.

 

Why does the question of putting a financial cost on your modelling time keep cropping up? Unless you are giving up some time/income to partake in your model making, then it is a red herring. Do those that buy RTR so that they can spend more time operating their models put a cost on the time they spend enjoying themselves?

 

For me, and I suspect many others, creating you own models provides value in itself. So  £200 spent on a kit, wheels, motor, etc. is better value than a RTR model of the same price because of the hours of enjoyment I get out of building it. Even if I encounter some difficulties or problems along the way, I would get more satisfaction from that completed model because I have put some effort into it and can say that it is uniquely "mine".

 

Elsewhere on RMweb a poll  of "How many locos do you have" showed that nearly 60% of respondents had more than fifty locos. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137703-so-how-many-locos-have-you-got/  If those people consider railway modelling is expensive, then they can only blame themselves.

[PMP]

Why does the question of putting a financial cost on your modelling time keep cropping up? Unless you are giving up some time/income to partake in your model making, then it is a red herring.

Absolutely! It also makes no sense taking salary variation into account.

 

This is an RTR makeover with probably ten hours in it, including £30 of components, do I charge them at National Minimum Wage or £45/hr for example. Pure build and paint time not including research etc. If it gets damaged or stolen then i’d have a job convincing any insurance company to fork out the thick end of £500 for it, whereas one of Jols LNWR kit built locos, with far more time and expense in components, would be worth that, and likely far more (rightly so), if costed commercially.

[The Johnster]

But, however you rate it, there is a cost to your time.  Time is 'spent' modelling, because it is a limited resource, and the time you spend modelling could be used in other ways, including earning more money but also at a cost to other activities.  This time must be earned by working so that you can afford to take it off work.  Also, modelling takes space somewhere in your home, admittedly less so if you just have a workbench (relevant to the scratchbuilding point) and not a layout, and as your home has a)limited space and b) also has to be paid for by working so that you can pay the rent or mortgage, and the Council Tax and services bills even if you own it outright, just having a workdesk or layout also incurs a cost.

 

What this cost actually is is debatable, and there are many and complex factors to consider, so most of us don't bother to consider it, but it is there just the same...

[HonestTom]

I think the "time cost" depends on how you view modelling. Is it about the end result, or do you get pleasure from the actual process of modelling? I don't view the time I spend modelling as something that "costs" me, because it's something I enjoy in itself. For me, things like going to work, shopping, housework etc are what "costs" time, because I'd rather be spending that time doing things I enjoy - seeing friends and family or indulging my hobbies.

[newbryford]

Indeed, it's been the trend for a while that cycling seems to be the new golf for a certain segment of society. Probably to the benefit of those who genuinely love golf as a sport or recreational past time rather than as a means of social climbing.

 

I play golf, cycle (road and off road) and do model railways. That's me kept busy.

 

Model railways takes up the most time and money.

 

Sport - I watch my local ice hockey team - £10 for 2 hours plus entertainment. Maybe 25 games per season including 3-4 away games.

Far cheaper (and better) than watching a bunch of 22 pansies rolling around at the merest hint of physical contact.

 

Not a hobby, but my disposable income has increased now that Junior is earning a decent wage. Heck - she's even paid for our away coach tickets for the hockey this weekend!

[tomparryharry]

As we know, expense can be extended, or reduced, depending on your circumstances. I've reasonably finished with my expenditure. My last major expense is the shed to house it all in.

 

As my age continues, I understand that there are certain time limitations upon me. Do I splash out on the latest 'must have'? Or, do I enjoy what I've got? There are one or two 'must haves' that I will buy, purely because I've said that I will buy when those models finally turn up. Those sad people whom read my posts will know which ones.... I really like the idea of a Heljan 47xx, or a Big Lizzie, but they never ran in my area. By the same token, no P2, or Flying Scotsman, etc.

 

So yes, it can be expensive, but if you're realistic, it doesn't necessarily need to be so.

 

 

Some of these modellers spend £10, and make it look like a million dollars. Now, they impress me no end.

 

Happy weekend,

 

Ian.

[Barry Ten]

But, however you rate it, there is a cost to your time.  Time is 'spent' modelling, because it is a limited resource, and the time you spend modelling could be used in other ways, including earning more money but also at a cost to other activities.  

 

 

 

By this logic birdwatching is an expensive hobby because it involves hours and hours of staring out of windows.

[Northmoor]

That said I would also say people need a sense of perspective. Having known modellers who spent £££££££'s on models while living in squalor I think people need to keep sight of a wider world.

Too right - at the last Ally Pally show I passed close to at least one chap who had just purchased a new locomotive, but whose household budget clearly didn't stretch to soap.

[Jol Wilkinson]

In today's society we are what we buy, not how we behave (or wash).

[Andy Hayter]

But, however you rate it, there is a cost to your time.  Time is 'spent' modelling, because it is a limited resource, and the time you spend modelling could be used in other ways, including earning more money but also at a cost to other activities.  This time must be earned by working so that you can afford to take it off work.  Also, modelling takes space somewhere in your home, admittedly less so if you just have a workbench (relevant to the scratchbuilding point) and not a layout, and as your home has a)limited space and b) also has to be paid for by working so that you can pay the rent or mortgage, and the Council Tax and services bills even if you own it outright, just having a workdesk or layout also incurs a cost.

 

What this cost actually is is debatable, and there are many and complex factors to consider, so most of us don't bother to consider it, but it is there just the same...

 

Accountancy gone mad.

 

My modelling area is around 25% of the total of my property.  So I could easily cost that at £100,000.

 

The knowledge of the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Accountancy gone mad.

 

My modelling area is around 25% of the total of my property.  So I could easily cost that at £100,000.

 

The knowledge of the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

Our house has seven 'Habitable Rooms' of which two are devoted to our hobbies, along with a double garage and half of the garden.

 

Take away the hobbies and we could manage with a house £150,000 less and a lot lower running costs. Problem is we would have nothing to do and nothing to spend the spare cash on. At the moment our hobby spending is probably feeding several people in the Far East.

[Colin_McLeod]

The cost of time is relevant if a scratch built item get stolen or damaged. What may have been pleasure building the first time can be a pain in the @$$ if you have to do it all over again.

[PMP]

By this logic birdwatching is an expensive hobby because it involves hours and hours of staring out of windows.

This bloke should be making a fortune!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-45905647

[PMP]

The cost of time is relevant if a scratch built item get stolen or damaged. What may have been pleasure building the first time can be a pain in the @$$ if you have to do it all over again.

So what do you charge for your time? If you’re a FTSE 100 CEO is your time invested in making the model valued the same as someone on a national minimum wage job? If not, why not? That’s what’s being proposed ‘your’ time is costed in the model building process, therefore any insurance value must based on what you earn, not what it would cost a professional modeller to supply a similar item.

[brack]

When royal mail damaged a model I'd built and sold I claimed in the post (the package looked like it'd been stood or sat on by a very fat bloke, but luckily I'd sent it insured). It wasn't destroyed (I pack things with an overabundance of card/bubble wrap/foam), just damaged: the front buffer beams broken, buffers detached, sandpipes bent, couplings off, paint scratched etc and having sold it for £130 I estimated £50 for the repair (mostly paint and glue plus posting it to/from me to the purchaser so I could fix it). I supplied photos of the damage, explained it was hand built and finished, costed out what was required and included £20 for 3-4 hours of my time in my total of £50. They in their infinite wisdom knew better than me what was required and sent me £30. Given it cost £12 each way to post it I was quite disappointed to say the least. Should've stamped on it and got the full amount back instead of being honest and trying to work out a fair cost - I sorted it so the purchaser could have the model they'd wanted, but lost time/money on the repair after I'd paid the postage.

 

Anyway, the point is that insofar as royal mail's insurance scammers are concerned, the time taken to build or paint a model is clearly not of any value at all.

[TheQ]

This bloke should be making a fortune!https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-45905647

We live about 25 miles from him, and a couple of years our garden got surrounded by binocular wielding twitchers, but by the time they arrived what ever it was had bu*****d off..

 

Just spent, 6.5hours of time getting the boat launched for tomorrow's race, followed by an hour of doggy walking how do you cost the value of that? My winters sailing will around, £200, and 200 hours, is it a cost or a benefit?

[The Johnster]

Well, you'll notice I didn't attempt to quantify the time cost of modelling from scratch or any other sort of modelling.  I'd have no idea how to do that, but as any 5th form economics student will tell you, everything has a value that can be expressed in monetary terms (though there are arguably things that should not be sullied with such expression) and a cost, determined by the Holy And Immutable Law Of Supply And Demand.

[njee20]

I'm sure I've said it already somewhere in the 10 pages but I'll say it again...

 

One of the things I like most about railway modelling is how well stuff retains its value. I have no qualms buying stock when I see it at good prices, even if I'm not entirely sure if I want it, because I know I can change my mind a week, a month or a few years later and it'll either be worth the same, or potentially slightly more. I model N where production runs are small and it's not uncommon for things to be worth huge amounts more in a very short space of time - FGW HSTs, ATW booksets, JPA cement tankers, all rapidly increased in value, but I presume the same is prevalent in other scales.

 

Compare this with cycling (where I've still just about spent more money!), where the rule of thumb is that a bike is worth 50% of its new price, less 10% for each year. With top end bikes this can be even less, as the number of people wanting to spend large sums on second hand bikes is very small. I used to be fortunate enough to be sponsored for bikes, I'd be able to buy them half price at the end of the season, which I did for several years and sold on for a profit. Then bike prices went silly, and it got very hard to recoup your money, even on something 6 months old, in immaculate condition and bought for half new price! You also get far more changes which can destroy the value of everything the precedes it - imagine if you got a whole new tooling on a model every 2-3 years...

 

The ongoing costs with modelling can be tiny too. Assuming you've got a collection you're happy with that's it. Maybe the odd spare here and there, but that's about it. Compare that with consumable parts on bikes which can easily run to hundreds of pounds a year, simply participating has an ongoing cost implication. Brake pads on a mountain bike are up to £25 per wheel, and can easily be destroyed in a single muddy ride.

Edited October 20, 2018 by njee20

[dj_crisp]

Reading this thread I've realised sleeping is seriously expensive.

 

Just think of how much modelling time I'm losing due to it!

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

The ongoing costs with modelling can be tiny too. Assuming you've got a collection you're happy with that's it. Maybe the odd spare here and there, but that's about it. Compare that with consumable parts on bikes which can easily run to hundreds of pounds a year, simply participating has an ongoing cost implication. Brake pads on a mountain bike are up to £25 per wheel, and can easily be destroyed in a single muddy ride.

Not only the financial side of bikes, today we were out for about four hours and some parts of the ride were a bit muddy. A good clean, lubricate and adjust anything noticed in the ride then put all the bikes and gear away took about an hour.

A couple of weeks ago we went on a short holiday including two cross country rides and two days riding round the MTB trails in Dalby Forest, a total of about 130 miles and 10,000 feet of ascents largely off-road. I spent two hours beforehand making sure the bike and kit were fit for the trip, about 30 minutes per day on maintenance and over two hours cleaning and servicing when we got back home.