Another motorcyclist bites the dust

[Black Sheep]

I don't want to start an argument here, but in traffic that dense and at those speeds, a bike in between lanes is in a far safer position than sitting in a lane with a car or truck half a second off its back wheel, regardless of what the law may say. I've been hit hard from behind at speed in heavy traffic and it isn't an experience I intend to repeat.

I think the issue our friends on this forum have with bikes filtering is more the speed at which SOME (not all) do so, when you're sat in a car in stop-start traffic and you suddenly hear the roar of a bike's exhaust and it whizzes by before you have chance to actually see it can be a little un-nerving as you're left thinking "If I'd moved, would an incident have happened?"

[trisonic]

  

When I lived in a country that had this dangerous rule, I used to ignore it. One of the most dangerous places to be in a queue is at the back and against a car you stand no chance. I always preserve my life first by ensuring I'm at least alongside the car at the back of the queue so he can take the brunt of any collision. Sometimes the law isn't very well thought out.

I tend to agree with you. Prepare for huge fines if you do it here though (and don't argue the toss with the local cops they will not hesitate to handcuff you).

To be honest most motorcyclists don't seem to use them to commute over here - they all pile out on the road on Summer evening or weekends. It's more of a social thing, I think.

 

Best, Pete.

[BlackRat]

One thing happens on a fairly regular basis, whilst out on patrol would someone once again pulling out in front of you at a junction.

 

As per 'roadcraft' a feature 5 horn warning would be given along with a flash to let the user know of my presence.

 

This was often followed by a hand gesture from the errant motorist, or worse, but the best bit was you could actually see the moment of realisation when they knew not only what they had done,but who they had done it to!!!!!!!

 

You could always see the head and shoulders slump down!!!!!!

[pH]

As an ex ADI we used to use a saying "Its only a fool that breaks the two second rule!" basically a driver focus's on a marker such as a lamp post and starts the sentence as the car in font passes that point, if you pass this marker before ending the sentence then you are too close to the car in front. But this saying was for distance keeping within a 30 MPH zone as I recall.

It's self-adjusting for any speed. In two seconds at 60mph, you cover twice the distance you do at 30, so your separation distance doubles as well.

[newbryford]

  While I've  also seen lately people braking when ever a car comes the other way , or having driven along a clear dual carriageway braking before over taking a vehicle, this I think is a consequence of the "push the button if you see a hazard", test in the current driving test with people equating pushing the button as braking.

 

 

 

It depends on your definition of a hazard. (EDIT - additional info - see next two posts below)

Is it "something that MAY make you change speed and/or direction?"

Or "something that IS making you change speed and/or direction?"

 

The former is being pro-active and thinking about what may happen, the latter is reactive and is the way the hazard perception test is marked. Reactive is not the ideal way to drive - by that time, it could be too late, but until someone invents a better, manageable, pro-active hazard test, then unfortunately we're stuck with what amounts to a video game.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[BlackRat]

It depends on your definition of a hazard.

 

A hazard is anything that is potentially dangerous.................Taken from Roadcraft!

 

I wont add to any confusion by ........talking about actual or potential danger!!!!!

 

[newbryford]

It depends on your definition of a hazard.

 

A hazard is anything that is potentially dangerous.................Taken from Roadcraft!

 

 

You're right of course.

The DSA driving manual defines it as "anything that may involve you in risk or danger" and then simplifies it to the "may change speed and/or direction", which is an easier concept for new drivers to understand.

 

If anyone invented "driving" now, it'd be immediately banned on Health & Safety grounds!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Kenton]

There are good and bad cyclists out there (I've come across a fair few bad ones, including one absolute idiot who appeared from nowhere out of a side road and decided to try and cut my car in two - with most of his face across my windscreen and a fair chunk of his leg in my roof rack - he was "lucky" to have an ambulance take him to hospital. Turned out he wasn't insured either.

 

Also I have little sympathy for bikers who weave in and out of traffic or go storming up the inside of a queue of parked cars.

 

And all those who have never driven a car and can appreciate that a drive has blind spots. Or who have no lights on at dusk and dawn (or even total darkness).

 

However, motorists are probably in the wrong most of the time. Almost every day I see motorists overtake a cyclist and pull in too suddenly or simply not leaving enough room. The trouble is just how many motorists (the majority of road users) have ever ridden a bike and given the chance to appreciate their vulnerability? Cyclists are becoming quire a rarity on the road so motorists do not think to look for them.

[Norm81]

As a cyclist, I'm acutely aware of the dangers of being on the road on 2 wheels rather than 4.

 

As a motorist, I'm aware of the ever thickening of windscreen pillars creating larger blind spots.

 

I think everyone is in such a rush these days it's easy to become fixated on something else, you're running late, you've a lot to do, etc. Reminds me of the plane crash where they ran out of fuel as the captain was too busy trying to debug a landing gear issue.

 

Incidentally the latest driver to overtake me not leaving enough room was on a driving lesson (!), maybe this is where the problem lies, lack of education?

[alastairq]

I used to ride a motorcycle....back in the 70's and 80's....sole form of transport too.

 

I  also had a major collision [me, rather than the motorcycle, as it happened]...with a car [anybody notices how incredibly hard a mini front wing was?]...which left me off-work for nearly a year.

 

And back  in that time [late'60's, to early 80's] I was convicted on several occasions for DWDC, Speeding, etc....[only got  a max of 3 points on licence....all the others were 'endorsements'... remember those?

 

You young 'uns don't know how lucky you are with penalty points...in those days, three endorsements got you a ban [ie, 3 offences]....these days you need at least 4 offences! Who says the Law has got worse?

 

 

But, in those days, the ratio of trafpol to vehicles was very much higher.....and for a young driver, mirror work was soon seen as vitally important [a Jam Sandwich had to follow you at a pre-set distance for 2/10ths of a mile for a 'pull'...so you looked out for White Zodiacs....!!]  [And the coppers were ten times larger than they are today!]

 

At the age of 21 [1972!] I started work as a proper bus driver....something I did pretty much continuously for 25 years!

 

And my licence stayed clean from 1984!

 

About this time, when into my second marriage, family argued I should 'give up' motorcycling, as they worried so much!

 

So, I sold my motorcycle.....and in revenge, bought myself a Renault 4.

 

 

I have to admit, whilst riding my motorcycles [had a preference for Kawasakis, for some reason]...that ....since driving buses had made me so much more 'aware' as a road user.....[yup..I know about the convictions, but I was very aware...just got caught, tis all!]......I tended to do nothing that I would not have considered doing in a car [or a bus!]....and if I ever filtered, I tended to do so very slowly and carefully....I was quite conscious of the fact that my filtering on a bike might well upset the sensibilities of other road users [which is a problem others have hilited on this thread?}.....they were upset even more if I tried it in a double decker bus!

 

 

But at no time ever have I been frightened of riding a motorcycle. [embarrassed, maybe!]

 

And at no time have I ever considered myself as a 'biker'........a motorcyclist, yes, but not a biker!  [Trialsmaster trousers saw to that!]

 

But, just over 16 years ago or so..I underwent three life-changing events.

 

One, I got married for a third time.....two, I assisted at the birth of my youngest son........and three, I changed jobs big style......going to work as a [specialist, now] Instructor at the Defence School of Transport, Leconfield.

 

At the time, I didn't really receive any sort of 'advanced' driving instruction.....but I learnt how to teach.......and in doing so, quickly found I needed to truly understand driving and riding,. and what goes on......and how road users think and tick.

 

I fell back on my years of experience...my mistakes, how I got it wrong, and why.

 

And I feel I now have a considerable understanding of what lies behind so-called 'advanced' driver training [since I conduct it]....to the extent that I'm always ready to learn more...but equally, I feel I have sufficient know-how to argue with the best of them if I disagree about something.

 

I understand that many of the decisions drivers and riders make, aren't based on sound driver techniques, but more on the emotive side of life.

 

there cannot be any 'good' drivers.

 

Because, even the most skilled driver is only as good as the hour, on the day.

 

So, for me, the length of time one has held a licence...or the number of miles travelled each year [to me, time behind the wheel/bars counts for more, not miles covered].....is pretty meaningless of I'm sat next to someone displaying numerous driving faults.

 

But......with time, come righteousness.

 

The longer we have a licence, the more convinced we are that we are 'right'...and others are 'wrong'.

 

The new drivers coming onto the roads today are far better educated in driving, than ever I was 45 years ago.

 

[Training as a bus driver with London Transport was a real eye-opener!]

 

 

Yes, I was amazed at such little reference to the most important road users' manual, the Highway Code.

 

Yet, on a daily basis at work I see incredible ignorance of what it contains too.

 

 

I do feel that the current lack of apparent emphasis on the HC at starter level is worrying.

 

 

 

I also agree with the sentiment above that we should not 're-act' as drivers..[for, in doing so, we are, essentially, already 'too late'] but should anticipate..or, to use a buzz word, be 'pro-active.'

 

Sadly I daily observe what little riders actually do to take some responsibility as vulnerable road users.....to protect themselves.  By that I mean, the manner with which they move down the road.

 

And..SMIDSY is something that plagued me as a bus driver as well....having endured several round rammings over the years...

 

Motorcycles?

 

well, a several years ago I bought a nice Honda CG125....rode around quite a bit on it too..but that has had to go, since I never really used it enough to warrant it's presence....son-and-heir needed too much transporting about....

 

 

Now, at over 60 years of age, I'm not sure whether I'll bother again.....but maybe, just maybe I'll be able to afford, one day, to buy my car of boyhood dreams.....

 

A Dellow

 

Or maybe, a Yamaha Serow?

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for all the sympathy and balanced views folks - knew there was a potential for this thread to go pear shaped but hasnt.

 

And yes there are good and bad amongst all road users - we all have to respect each other. Suspect I have only survived this long because I have adopted many of these strategies - and since the age of 16 I refused to ride in groups except with my brothers.

 

Having been rear ended I have to agree that it is far more dangerous to sit at the tail of a queue. Filtering has to be done considerately though - and is best done by ensuring that you surprise no-one, never come up along the front car in a queue just as they go to pull off for example. Are modern bikes too quiet?

 

And all the posters discussing making eye contact and line of sight are spot on - valid for all road users. Eyesight is a funny thing - peripheral is very strong, go out at night in the dark for half an hour and use your peripheral vision and you will see what I mean.

 

The real paradox aroound here - and I suspect in many other places - is that in creating cycle lanes roads have been made more dangerous for other road users as lanes get narrowed and lines of sight become obstructed.

 

I suspect no return for me - SWMBO was on the back of the bike not this time but the one before and broke her leg - she now has a plate and 6 screws but can still dance the night away thank goodness. My life will change as a result of this decision but may be a few Bacchy 43s will dull the pain? We'll see!

 

Phil

[30801]

As a motorist, I'm aware of the ever thickening of windscreen pillars creating larger blind spots.

My car is a small city car and it has massive pillars.

You don't quite get the full effect in the photo but I can SMIDSY an HGV quite easily.

Right hand bends have to be negotiated with a fighter pilot head wobble to see where I'm going.

[MichaelW]

 

The real paradox aroound here - and I suspect in many other places - is that in creating cycle lanes roads have been made more dangerous for other road users as lanes get narrowed and lines of sight become obstructed.

 

 

They are also dangerous for cyclists - especially the narrow "we'll paint on a line and advertise what a cycle friendly council we are" lanes that have appeared near me.  With a special lane marked out, drivers think it's ok to pass with barely any space left for the bike.  I have to admit I use the line as a good marker as to where I should start thinking I'm too close to the kerb!  

[alfsboy]

I rode for 30 years or so and raced at club level for a bit. I also spent some time giving a bit of tuition to "normal" motorcyclists on their first track days. Without exception they would end the day amazed at how much they had learned about the capabilities of their bikes and themselves generally but, especially, their brakes and tyres. Many got back to me at later dates to tell me how much it had improved their road riding and how much of an extra safety margin it had given them.

 

People often wonder why racetracks might be safer than roads. You generally have a uniform surface with uniform grip. Everyone is going in the same direction. There is nobody to pull out in front of you and far fewer solid objects to hit. Also, if the worst does happen, medical help is close by.

 

I haven't ridden for 10 years now. I'm occasionally tempted but it would be for the occasional track day. Definitely not on the roads. Traffic volumes, mobile phones, speed( sorry-revenue) cameras all mean that the roads have no appeal for me any longer as far as bikes are concerned.

Although I was maniac on the Kawasaki which frankly was  far too quick for its brakes ,tyres ,frame and indeed riders and had a very tight on/off power band  to add to the dish ,i learned from about 14 on old bikes ,none legal, and then a cheap Cotton 197  when I was 16 .I was a member of the original 59 club ( still got me  arm patch )  and watched quite a few blokes i knew die ,some in front of my eyes . I learned about grip and surface conditions thanks the cop who lived over the road .He knew I rode illegally and underage but as he was as bent as a nine bob note didnt say anything ,live and let live .   He did drum into me  about stupid drivers ,wet roads ,going round corners when you dont know whats round it etc ,loose gravel  etc .The only thing he did ban me from was taking his daughter out on a bike LOL.He gave a me a  prewar 350 Aerial .My dad died when I was 10 so I needed some guidance .I have never  had an accident on a bike when I was driving .i had three when I wasnt ,all from cornering in bad conditions or just too fast for the corner so again i learned my trade well.Worst injury was a burnt leg from the exhaust .I dont do pillion .I was actually careful until I got the Kwacker

re Barn owls  and Acle straight

Before I got the Honda CB250n I used a Honda 90 scooter thing .amazing little bikes  for a while .I went to Lowestoft and used the Ferry to get there .I got stuck behind  a huge heard of cows and between the mud and their bowel movements i had no control of the bike .it just was worse than ice .I gather the farmer didnt clean it up and later a driver was killed skidding on it .On the return journey the wind got up and stupidly I  went to Gt Yarmouth .The wind down the Acle straight was horrendous and   from southerly.  I had to lean the Honda at about 45 degrees to keep it upright .This was a bit hairy  but far worse was when the wind suddenly dropped for a moment and I was halfway to the ground already .I just made it to Acle with some sanity .Oh the joy of the Acle straight ,never still ,never sensible ,always full of sheep .

[Norm81]

My car is a small city car and it has massive pillars.

You don't quite get the full effect in the photo but I can SMIDSY an HGV quite easily.

Right hand bends have to be negotiated with a fighter pilot head wobble to see where I'm going.

 

Looks a similar size to my wife's car's a-pillar. My car being of 1989 "vintage" gives me a direct comparison, I'd say they've doubled or tripled in size. Whenever I drive her car I find myself bobbing my head about just to see past the pillar!

 

I appreciate they're stronger in a crash and often have airbags in, but the restriction to vision makes it more likely you'll have one imo.

[newbryford]

The new drivers coming onto the roads today are far better educated in driving, than ever I was 45 years ago.

 

 

 

Yes, I was amazed at such little reference to the most important road users' manual, the Highway Code.

 

Yet, on a daily basis at work I see incredible ignorance of what it contains too.

 

 

I do feel that the current lack of apparent emphasis on the HC at starter level is worrying.

 

I would agree about drivers being more educated (apart from issues with the Highway Code as you mention, but this is being addressed). The roads are far busier than ever before and the test is tougher.

 

There are moves to make people spend more time studying the Highway Code and using other driver education methods. Up until recently, all the theory questions were readily available - book, CD etc, but there has been a recent change to the question bank and the actual questions are no longer published. Admittedly, the "new" questions aren't too different from the previously available question set, but at least the theory test now tries to make the new driver think about the question and answer a bit more, rather than just learning all the questions by rote.

 

For those of a certain age that haven't done the theory test, as well as the hazard perception test, it now consists of 50 multiple choice questions, from a question bank of over 1000, covering a multitude of topics. The pass mark is 43/50. The current pass rate is about 65%.

If you think driver experience is enough to get you by I remember a TV programme a few years ago carrying out the theory test amongst so-called "experienced" drivers and the pass rate was well below 50%...................... I once did a 20 question test amongst a group of about thirty 50-75 year olds and only four made the pass mark and one of them was an ADI..... Some of the group told me a couple of weeks later that they'd gone and bought the latest copy of the HC to read.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[PhilJ W]

If you think it's bad in this country you should try Russia (well mostly anyway).

[Leicester Thumper]

As a cyclist, I do somewhat understand where motorcyclists come from when they state that they do not feel safe on the roads. 

 

For myself, I don't drive and don't hold a motorcycle license, as it stands, Cycling is good for me, the exercise helps with my depressive bouts, keeps some weight off the ol' tum and I can just chill out on the bike and see the scenery pass by.... However, I often too, see much idiocy on the British roads. 

 

I do abide by the Highway code, and from time to time refresh myself on the rules of the road as I am a road user, However, I will admit that I do sometimes don't stick to it when its 10pm at night on the way home from work.... I do However, have bright lights on my cycle fore and aft and also wear a very bright Orange HiVis vest (Orange because it was a quid at a vintage car rally!!! bl**dy good an all!) and yet, car drivers still do not see me. 

 

I am especially surprised how many drivers are on Britain's road and how many of them are aware of and know the rules of, the Highway Code, and it doesn't seem to be many apart from a few car drivers, the police, Some lorry Drivers and some Bus drivers. 

 

I have very recently nearly been Involved in a SMIDSY- esque incident as some pillock in front of me at a local junction went to turn left over my path without any particular warning or checking of the wing mirrors. I do air very cautiously at junctions as it is, however the Junction in question had a cycle lane in my direction of travel, so one assumed the car was going straight on. Needless to say, I felt very lucky I had not been harmed and that I decided to pedal out my frustration....

 

I also had an incident where an Irate builder had a full blown swearing and shouting rant at me...

 

I was at a crossroads, in essence. the main road with priority travelled from my left to my right. the van is opposite and wants to turn onto the road on my left, he indicates so. The Highway code states in this situation, that if a vehicle or road user is going straight over and a vehicle (such as the van) is crossing over my path, I have the right of way. As it was clear, I proceeded across and the guy was about a foot off hitting me and hooted his horn and who knows what. I simply said audibly 'Check your Highway code' and then the guy followed me for half a mile cut me up and then proceeded to try and have an abusive rant at me. I simply said, 'Very sorry if I have upset you, but the highway code says that in that situation I have the right of way over you, I have a Hi Vis Jacket and lights, you can see where I am going and I made my intentions clear to you.' He then profusely apologised, we shook hands and he left calmly. I sometimes think the person behind the wheel can have something to do with how people at on the roads. As my example has just pointed out, a stressed/wound up person is more likely to cause some form of harm in some way than a calm person doing the speed limit, not in a rush to be somewhere etc.

 

I tend to think that Motocycles are the best form of personal transport, they are quite nippy, don't take up too much room, are very fuel efficient and pollute less than cars. However, until road attitudes change then I can't see this idea being feasible.

 

Also for the OP, do you have a photo of the Bianchi? I am very keen to see it! My dad has two Raleigh Roma's in our garden, which were Bianchi engined machines.

[PatB]

I think the issue our friends on this forum have with bikes filtering is more the speed at which SOME (not all) do so, when you're sat in a car in stop-start traffic and you suddenly hear the roar of a bike's exhaust and it whizzes by before you have chance to actually see it can be a little un-nerving as you're left thinking "If I'd moved, would an incident have happened?"

Fair enough and I wouldn't want anybody to think that I condone all manouvers by all motorcyclists.  I do, however, think that it's important to recognise that there can be a considerable difference between what looks excessively risky from the perspective of a car driver and what actually is.  

[alastairq]

For those of a certain age that haven't done the theory test, as well as the hazard perception test, it now consists of 50 multiple choice questions, from a question bank of over 1000, covering a multitude of topics. The pass mark is 43/50. The current pass rate is about 65%.

 

 

Last time I asked... at-my-place-of-work i think the pass rate was some 95%! The difference, perhaps, of training continuously in an educational environment?

 

[i probably believe in continuous training for all categories of licence..........seems to produce a more conscious driver....? Far better than the odd lesson here and there?}

[GrahamB]

Leicester Thumper,

I have no wish to inflame the conversation, this thread seems to be progressing in avery balanced manner, but, when I used to be a motorcycle instructor, a fellow instructor came up with two sayings that will stick with me for life.

 

1. Right of way is a given thing, if you ain't given it, you ain't got it. (Apologies for bad grammer)

 

2. You may be in the right as right can be, but you'll be as dead as if you was dead wrong.

 

In my view, both apply to all road users.

[meil]

I have had several near misses, all whilst riding a BMW K1200, fully day glowed up including myself, and riding lights.

 

usual sorry I didn't see you........... and then it's a treat to say,

 

"which fully marked and clearly liveried part of this Police Traffic motorcycle didn't you see..........?"

 

We used to laugh all the way to the magistrates court!!!!!

 

Putting aside the possibility that he did it deliberatly (in which case you would be off to Crown Court with attempted murder) why didn't he see you? As you say "I have had several near misses" and

you say your bike is day glow and with lights. So why did he not see you?

 

It's not good enough to "laugh all the way to the Magistrates court" because there is somthing about you that is causing it.

[c2c]

It's self-adjusting for any speed. In two seconds at 60mph, you cover twice the distance you do at 30, so your separation distance doubles as well.

 

In theory yes but I believe the 2 second rule has now been changed to 3 seconds for good conditions and double for marginal. Lets not forget also that you calculate the distance you are traveling at by x1.5 so 70mph = 105 feet per second. It takes at least 1 second to react before applying the brakes, so in an emergency the 2 second rule doesn't buy you much time at that speed.

 

I'm a bit rusty now but I haven't forgotten that much, although there have been new things introduced to driver training since I was an ADI back in 1987!

 

DaveH

[New Haven Neil]

Putting aside the possibility that he did it deliberatly (in which case you would be off to Crown Court with attempted murder) why didn't he see you? As you say "I have had several near misses" and

you say your bike is day glow and with lights. So why did he not see you?

 

It's not good enough to "laugh all the way to the Magistrates court" because there is somthing about you that is causing it.

 

Hmm, a police officer on a marked police motorcycle....I really think you may have missed the point?

[Leicester Thumper]

Leicester Thumper,

I have no wish to inflame the conversation, this thread seems to be progressing in avery balanced manner, but, when I used to be a motorcycle instructor, a fellow instructor came up with two sayings that will stick with me for life.

 

1. Right of way is a given thing, if you ain't given it, you ain't got it. (Apologies for bad grammer)

 

2. You may be in the right as right can be, but you'll be as dead as if you was dead wrong.

 

In my view, both apply to all road users.

You are not inflaming the discussion at all, I fully aprreciate those words as it provides food for thought.

 

We all learn from experience, the mistakes of others and wise words and I will keep those quotes in my mind