Level crossing stupidity...

[ruggedpeak]

39 minutes ago, craneman said:

The video evidence now circulating is highly suggestive (I'd almost say overwhelmingly so) that it was a hybrid Range Rover which caught fire, since (a) the source of the early fire corresponds to the location of the traction battery, and (b) the near immediate explosion caught on camera is wholly consistent with a battery explosion and inconsistent with any kind of diesel vehicle fire effect.

 

The statement by the as-yet-unidentified official that it was a "diesel vehicle" is likely either to be a mistake and it was a diesel-hybrid, or - especially if you are a conspiracy theorist - deliberate misinformation to prevent Joe Public from forming the impression that hybrids and EVs are remotely dangerous.

 

It is apparently true that there were no sprinklers in that car park (nor, I think, Liverpool Arena car park) since building regs do not require them. Perhaps that particularly absurdity will now change, a new car park must cost ore than sprinklers.

For some time you haven't been able to buy normal diesels from Land Rover, they only now sell hybrids. We don't know the age of this one. I agree the images are not consistent with a diesel vehicle fire, which tend to have clear behaviours in the absence of serious impact damage.

 

They appear desperate not to suggest it was an EV or hybrid. However anyone who has seen diesel burn in the open air knows several things:

 

1) it does not burn like that all

2) diesel gives off thick black smoke - the smoke here is light grey, consistent with lithium and related battery materials, not as thick but really, really toxic.

3) the intensity of the initial burn is consistent with it being gas fed - EV/hybrid batteries vent gas when they get hot which is why they are so difficult to put out initially. Diesel normally drips out  and the fire is limited for quite some time before it really takes hold.

 

Also the fire is on the nearside middle of the car. Diesel Land Rovers normally have a fuel tank and LP pump at the rear, everything else except sometimes the fuel filter, is at the front under the bonnet including the HP system. So basically diesel fires normally start when something splits or comes loose in the engine bay and diesel goes onto hot oily parts, so the fire starts in the engine bay and is normally detected once smoke starts to come through ther vents or the front wheel arch. If there is a leak at the fuel tank nothing happens as there is nothing hot except the exhaust but the fuel system is kept well away from that for obvious reasons, so the fuel can leak for days or weeks with no fire. The fuel filter has self closing valves and the amount of fuel under any pressure is negligible. Happy to be proven wrong but this does not look like a diesel related fire at all at this point.

 

Back to level crossings, will there be an EV driver who decides to take on a train at a crossing........?

Edited October 13, 2023 by ruggedpeak

[Michael Hodgson]

27 minutes ago, craneman said:

It is apparently true that there were no sprinklers in that car park (nor, I think, Liverpool Arena car park) since building regs do not require them. Perhaps that particularly absurdity will now change, a new car park must cost ore than sprinklers.

 

The cost of rebuildimg the car park will be as nothing to the value of the cars and their contents, the cost to the airlines and insurance companies of diverting all flights for 24 hours with alternative transport back to Luton, accommodation where provided, compensation claims for lost holidays etc

 

The fire brigade say that sprinklers are best practice, and given the number of cars written off, the insurance indistry isn't going to be too happy about having to pick up the bill for so much avoidable damage - so let's see whether they collectively allege negligence against the car park operators or even architects for not requiring it.

 

Perhaps the motor industry will also come under pressure to install as standard automatic lithium-compatible extuingishing systems (probably pushing car prices up even further).  

[ruggedpeak]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The cost of rebuildimg the car park will be as nothing to the value of the cars and their contents, the cost to the airlines and insurance companies of diverting all flights for 24 hours with alternative transport back to Luton, accommodation where provided, compensation claims for lost holidays etc

 

The fire brigade say that sprinklers are best practice, and given the number of cars written off, the insurance indistry isn't going to be too happy about having to pick up the bill for so much avoidable damage - so let's see whether they collectively allege negligence against the car park operators or even architects for not requiring it.

 

Perhaps the motor industry will also come under pressure to install as standard automatic lithium-compatible extuingishing systems (probably pushing car prices up even further).  

I think you are getting into dangerous territory suggesting negligence. It is/was an entirely open sided metal frame parking structure that will not have required sprinklers under fire/building regs. Note fire regs and buildings regs are two different regimes and are in some cases contradictory. I know the Luton car park quite well as I used it earlier this year in my diesel Land Rover!

 

It does raise questions about how the decision to use an unprotected lightweight structure right next to the airfield was made, but that will presumably have been airport management deciding matters such as cost, speed, planning etc over that or a concrete monstrosity which may not have collapsed. No doubt this incident will inform other sites thinking of using such a system. I would have expected the airport's insurers to have had some input into the process as well, certainly in my role managing car parks elsewhere I have been discussing EV fire issues with the insurers to ensure we do not end up with an issue if there is a fire. I didn't ban EV's but did "ban" charging points being put in confined space or underground car parks as EV's and chargers together seem to be more of an issue.

[ruggedpeak]

On level crossings, was watching one of those Fail Army videos, mostly people doing dumb stuff but there are some more serious clips.

 

One was two big 4x4 cop cars with their blue lights on at a level crossing somewhere in a deserty bit of the US, waiting for a huge container train to pass . As soon as the train clears, the lead cop car goes onto the crossing and gets hit by a loco and train coming the other way that they couldn't see. Cop car gets crushed and thrown down the railway line like a tin can, looked really bad 🤕

 

Update, found the clip

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by ruggedpeak
add clip

[johnofwessex]

Interesting article on car park fires here

 

https://anbeal.co.uk/page64.html

[Hobby]

24 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 I didn't ban EV's but did "ban" charging points being put in confined space or underground car parks as EV's and chargers together seem to be more of an issue.

 

That's interesting. On our way back from Germany we stopped over in Brugges and the car park we used was underground and had half a dozen or so EV charging points!

[Jonboy]

You wouldn’t fit a fire engine on the levels of the Luton car park height wise and I have a suspicion the car park would have a vehicle weight limit far below  that of a fire engine (round here there is car park built over a mezzanine with a 5 ton vehicle (not per axle or any other measure) limit.

 

 I haven’t seen any images of mains risers etc in the press yet but would assume they are present.

[craneman]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

Interesting article on car park fires here

 

https://anbeal.co.uk/page64.html

Indeed an interesting article, thanks for the link.

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

Interesting article on car park fires here

 

https://anbeal.co.uk/page64.html

Mmmm, not sure he's an expert in fire safety or vehicle fires. He's a structural engineer and jumps to a lot of conclusions without evidence. He bases his theories on fuel escaping from vehicles, that is not how fire spreads in that sort of setting IMHO. Basically once several vehicles are properly alight the dynamics of the fire take over and the temperatures become so hot that pretty much everything close by starts to burn or vapourise, large quantities of fuel are not spilling out and flooding across the floor, they will vapourise and ignite as soon as they leave the tank and enter that by now 400 degree + flaming environment. This further increases the fuel and temperature of the fire, which then causes other things to combust. However there are not tidal waves of flaming diesel setting other cars alight. That's only in Hollywood. 

 

And plastic tanks actually take longer to fail than metal ones in a fire. Basic vehicle safety. And fuel does not pour out out fuel lines in modern cars.

 

You can rely on an Aussie to have a clear view! Agrees with me about black smoke. And turns out the battery in LR products is under the left front seat..........

 

 

[kevinlms]

We have progressed from e-scooters and their riders, to car park fires and fire protection!

 

Here is another train level crossing incident from the same area, but with lesser impact to the road vehicle driver.

 

https://www.bay939.com.au/local-news/train-cab-collide-in-south-geelong/

[corneliuslundie]

One might expect a professional driver to know better.

(But then one could also say that of the lorry driver in the incident above)

Jonathan

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

One might expect a professional driver to know better.

(But then one could also say that of the lorry driver in the incident above)

Jonathan

Yeah, but the colour of the cab matches the paint on the road - perhaps he thought he was parked in a taxi rank?

[kevinlms]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yeah, but the colour of the cab matches the paint on the road - perhaps he thought he was parked in a taxi rank?

A taxi parked in a taxi rank - well I never!

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

One might expect a professional driver to know better.

(But then one could also say that of the lorry driver in the incident above)

Jonathan

There us an AOC(L) near us 0 barriers added a couple of years back - which  saw a number train and car interfaces before the barriers were installed so it received full monitoring kit,..  The best thing that kit has ever recorded was the arrival of a police car which stopped just short of the crossing and a copper got out, walked onto the crossing, looked both ways - and then signalled his mate driving the car to drive over the crossing.

[Budgie]

Does this count as level crossing stupidity?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67402745

[ruggedpeak]

11 hours ago, Budgie said:

Does this count as level crossing stupidity?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67402745

Certainly appears to involve both stupidity and a level crossing so yes! 🤣

[kevinlms]

26 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Certainly appears to involve both stupidity and a level crossing so yes! 🤣

Worse that it's official!

 

Since official, they ought to have made a temporary crossing nearby - after all, it appears that the trains weren't operating - even so there are ways around that. It's not like the level crossing has required work previously!

Edited November 20, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Wickham Green too]

"Last week, Network Rail informed the residents of Bunchrew, but not most of those living in the Englishton and Kirkton Muir area, that the road would be closed overnight." ............. Looking at the OS map, online, it seems that only three Bunchrew properties lie on the south side of the railway and the rest of the settlement is on and around the A862 where they'd not be troubled anyway ... the scattered population of Englishton and Kirkton Muir is a different matter.

[dunwurken]

Not much information on this one at Barbaraville in Easter Ross but at least no one was injured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67524238

Malcolm

[Michael Hodgson]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/crash-between-car-and-train-blocks-north-railway-line-betwee-333974/

[Hobby]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/chaos-on-scotrail-services-between-wick-and-inverness-333969/

 

"Chaos"?!! - a slight exaggeration!

"Blockage on both lines"  - it's single track judging by the photos, perhaps both directions?!

Do HSTs really get that far north?

[corneliuslundie]

Or both rails?

It is a half barrier crossing so either the equipment must have misbehaved or . . .

Jonathan

[Michael Hodgson]

On 25/11/2023 at 07:03, Hobby said:

"Blockage on both lines"  - it's single track judging by the photos, perhaps both directions?!

 

The line has two rails.  They were both blocked.

[corneliuslundie]

My thoughts exactly!!!

Jonathan

[25kV]

Cars and trucks on level crossings is one form of stupidity, but laying fresh tarmac over the rails between trains is a whole other kind - the solution?  Send your loco across anyway.