Level crossing stupidity...

[rab]

While I am aware of the impact incidents like this have on train drivers and other railway staff, I find it hard to accept that people could turn such an incident into an argument over who knows what. A life has been lost here guys, have some respect.

[boxbrownie]

14 minutes ago, rab said:

While I am aware of the impact incidents like this have on train drivers and other railway staff, I find it hard to accept that people could turn such an incident into an argument over who knows what. A life has been lost here guys, have some respect.

Exactly, my post was referring to Jim’s lack of sympathy with the victim, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And if people have read my previous post regarding “jumpers” they should know how much I feel for the drivers/staff on the receiving end of such incidents.

 

I can only hope the poor driver got the support he needs and will recover from this harrowing incident.

[royaloak]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I can only hope the poor driver got the support he needs and will recover from this harrowing incident.

The driver is receiving all the assistance he needs, sadly TOCs get plenty of practice at assisting drivers after these incidents.

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Seriously? 
 

Might have been a momentary loss of concentration, a silly mistake or even a medical issue.

 

Lets hope the family have the same attitude as you this Christmas.........

Whilst in charge of a motor vehicle, the driver is wholly, and legally, responsible for his (or her) actions, including lapses in concentration, mistakes and medical issues. 

And a level crossing is something that you really should not take chances with, under any circumstances.

 

Jim

[johnofwessex]

3 hours ago, royaloak said:

Another one this morning at Paradise crossing near Truro, tis the season all right.

 

What happened?

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, royaloak said:

So basically its always the nasty railways fault for what happened to the poor innocent motorist, I will have to inform my work colleague who was driving the train of that fact!

 

Please explain the rules we are supposed to follow at a fully working AOCL please because I seem to have forgotten them!

 

 

No need for the sarcasm nor reference to "the nasty railway".  I did say that my comment was not in respect of the accident under discussion.  Someone posted that when a train and car are on a crossing at the same time it is either the fault of the motorist or a faulty crossing.  I was pointing out a possible third option such as the fault of the train driver, either in his/her response to a faulty crossing or in his/her approach speed.

 

There  was a fault at the NIR crossing but the train driver did not follow the rules in response to the fault and this resulted in the death of two occupants of the car and of one train passenger and multiple serious injuries on board the train and in the car.  The design of level crossings has since been modified to reduce the risk of a similar accident.

 

Regarding your request that I explain the rules, it's all in the report of the Railway Inspectorate into the accident at Slatt on 1st March 1990.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

 

What happened?

A person got hit by 1A82.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Whilst in charge of a motor vehicle, the driver is wholly, and legally, responsible for his (or her) actions, including lapses in concentration, mistakes and medical issues. 

And a level crossing is something that you really should not take chances with, under any circumstances.

 

Jim

I understand the obvious, what I fail to understand was your lack of sympathy for the victim of this (almost certainly) accident.

 

Out of here..........

[Hobby]

Perhaps look at from the point of view of the train driver and other railway staff. After a few incidents I suspect the "sympathy" aspect starts to go out of the window... Whatever the issues the jumper has the real victim is the train driver as they are the innocent party, they didn't ask for it to happen to them. I'm all for the current actions being taken to stop people doing it, but in the aftermath my sympathy lies with the railway staff.

[Mark Saunders]

21 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Perhaps look at from the point of view of the train driver and other railway staff. After a few incidents I suspect the "sympathy" aspect starts to go out of the window... Whatever the issues the jumper has the real victim is the train driver as they are the innocent party, they didn't ask for it to happen to them. I'm all for the current actions being taken to stop people doing it, but in the aftermath my sympathy lies with the railway staff.

 

The other people I really feel for are those that have to pick the pieces up! What I can never forget heard on the Police radio during the aftermath of the one I had and can never unhear; "we can't find his head".

 

 

[Hobby]

We had that issue recently, we were asked to find the remains by the signaller, though luckily for us it was a calf rather than a human, though even that was grisly enough...

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

The other people I really feel for are those that have to pick the pieces up! What I can never forget heard on the Police radio during the aftermath of the one I had and can never unhear; "we can't find his head".

 

 

In the aftermath of one such incident (where fortunately the police had collected most of the remains) I picked up a sock several hundred yards from the 'collision point'.  One of the coppers immediately identified it as belonging to the deceased and asked if it was empty followed by an explanation of why he had asked that.   With such things you have little choice but to become very hardened to them and to often resort to black humour because if you don't you are likely to finish up in a very poor mental state yourself.

 

BTW collisions with cattle can be far, far, worse than those involving humans for various reasons that I needn't go into.

[Gwiwer]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

In the aftermath of one such incident (where fortunately the police had collected most of the remains) I picked up a sock several hundred yards from the 'collision point'.  One of the coppers immediately identified it as belonging to the deceased and asked if it was empty followed by an explanation of why he had asked that.   With such things you have little choice but to become very hardened to them and to often resort to black humour because if you don't you are likely to finish up in a very poor mental state yourself.

 

BTW collisions with cattle can be far, far, worse than those involving humans for various reasons that I needn't go into.

It is a sobering experience to be even a tiny part of the recovery process.  Recovery in all its meanings.  I have been witness to numerous events because of my employment the most recent of which was a particularly gruesome one.  

 

After almost three hours and being as discreet and respectful as one can when removing remains at Britain's busiest railway station (which remained open for as much traffic as could be permitted) we were advised that the line was reopening.  A train came through on the line adjacent to the incident and while officers of the BTP and others were still actively engaged in their tasks.  That should not have happened.  The juice should not have been re-energised until they gave the all-clear.  I dare say someone somewhere received a Please Explain.  

 

As that train departed it was apparent that not all of the deceased had been removed.  Without going into detail it took another 30 minutes until the call of "Are we all satisfied that's everything?"  

 

On another occasion there was an incident at a suburban station where trains were permitted to re-start on an adjacent track a little too soon.  Passing the incident train it was very obvious that a part of the deceased remained very visible on the front end.  My duty manager was first-on-scene at that event and mentioned later that he was absolutely horrified to see a train approaching (which was the one I was aboard) because he had not given the signaller the line clear call.  

 

Cows - yes.  Agree entirely.  And for what it's worth wombats and kangaroos which are substantial and messy embuggerances unknown in the UK. 

[Neil]

22 hours ago, Hobby said:

Perhaps look at from the point of view of the train driver and other railway staff. After a few incidents I suspect the "sympathy" aspect starts to go out of the window... Whatever the issues the jumper has the real victim is the train driver as they are the innocent party, they didn't ask for it to happen to them. I'm all for the current actions being taken to stop people doing it, but in the aftermath my sympathy lies with the railway staff.

 

There are many victims when someone commits suicide by train. In this day and age I hope that we would have unconditional sympathy for someone who feels at such a state that the only remedy is to take their own life. Of course we should extend our sympathy to those who are confronted by the results of suicide, the train crew, emergency service workers and anyone else involved in the clean up. Then there are the family and friends of the person who killed themselves who will be severely impacted by the death of a loved one. The good thing about sympathy is that there need be no limit to it, we have enough to cover all.

[Dunsignalling]

23 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I understand the obvious, what I fail to understand was your lack of sympathy for the victim of this (almost certainly) accident.

 

Out of here..........

In the words of a retired policeman of my acquaintance, when I asked him why roads get closed for so long following accidents, "there's no such thing as an accident, they are all caused by something or someone".

 

John

Edited December 29, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[boxbrownie]

48 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the words of a retired policeman of my acquaintance, when I asked him why roads get closed for so long following accidents, "there's no such thing as an accident, they are all caused by something or someone".

 

John

Yep, heard that before.......

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the words of a retired policeman of my acquaintance, when I asked him why roads get closed for so long following accidents, "there's no such thing as an accident, they are all caused by something or someone".

 

John

 

With respect I disagree with your retired policeman friend. They may be caused by someone and still be an accident.  The word "accident" does not mean that it was no one's fault. It means that it was not on purpose.

 

That's the difference between manslaughter and murder.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[ianwales]

There was a post on Facebook over Christmas a crossing had failed and the red road lights were going continuously, the person posted how "dangerous" this was as a train could be coming and people would be hurt crossing over and could be hit by a train, don't people realise these crossings are designed to "fail safe" and if the red lights are going you should not cross over however long they are going therefore are not at all dangerous!!!

 

Ian

[ianwales]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

 

There are many victims when someone commits suicide by train. In this day and age I hope that we would have unconditional sympathy for someone who feels at such a state that the only remedy is to take their own life. Of course we should extend our sympathy to those who are confronted by the results of suicide, the train crew, emergency service workers and anyone else involved in the clean up. Then there are the family and friends of the person who killed themselves who will be severely impacted by the death of a loved one. The good thing about sympathy is that there need be no limit to it, we have enough to cover all.

 

Sorry Neil, however commendable your post the lack of sympathy from myself and a lot of my colleagues stems from having to deal with these incidents time and time again whether they be Level Crossings or suicides the fact remains persons shouldn't be on the railway line, One driver I recall had a jumper where the head came through the windscreen and was off work for nearly a year because of the incident, the day he came back to work he had another suicide on the same stretch of line, in such circumstances sympathy does dwindle considerably I'm afraid.

 

Ian 

[Neil]

9 minutes ago, ianwales said:

 

Sorry Neil, however commendable your post the lack of sympathy from myself and a lot of my colleagues stems from having to deal with these incidents time and time again whether they be Level Crossings or suicides the fact remains persons shouldn't be on the railway line, One driver I recall had a jumper where the head came through the windscreen and was off work for nearly a year because of the incident, the day he came back to work he had another suicide on the same stretch of line, in such circumstances sympathy does dwindle considerably I'm afraid.

 

Ian 

 

You and your colleagues have my sincere sympathy at being exposed to such traumatic incidents, and my hope that effective, practical help at dealing with such trauma is made available. However I don't think it's at all healthy to engage in sympathy top trumps where we apportion differing levels of deservedness across the spread of individuals involved. 

[melmerby]

35 minutes ago, ianwales said:

There was a post on Facebook over Christmas a crossing had failed and the red road lights were going continuously, the person posted how "dangerous" this was as a train could be coming and people would be hurt crossing over and could be hit by a train, don't people realise these crossings are designed to "fail safe" and if the red lights are going you should not cross over however long they are going therefore are not at all dangerous!!!

 

Ian

Ah! But its social media.

The encyclopedia of dangerous misinformation.

[Reorte]

36 minutes ago, ianwales said:

Sorry Neil, however commendable your post the lack of sympathy from myself and a lot of my colleagues stems from having to deal with these incidents time and time again whether they be Level Crossings or suicides the fact remains persons shouldn't be on the railway line, One driver I recall had a jumper where the head came through the windscreen and was off work for nearly a year because of the incident, the day he came back to work he had another suicide on the same stretch of line, in such circumstances sympathy does dwindle considerably I'm afraid.

 

People on level crossings who shouldn't be there but are too impatient to bother doing something like wait for a few minutes, I agree, but I ask you this - have you ever been significantly depressed? I have (and usually am), and whilst not suicidal it doesn't take much of a leap of imagination to get into the head of someone who is. IMO you should always be able to empathise (at least to a degree) with anyone before criticising anything they do, no matter how bad (which isn't the same sympathising with them). There was someone killed near here recently, by her grandson - he was on medication and the rumour was that he'd forgotten to take it, because he normally doted on her. That's just all round tragedy for everyone involved and there was sympathy for all, not just anyone else caught up and suffering because things had gone wrong for one person.

 

I think that I can understand why you feel the way I do, and I may very well be the same in your position (although I do think the "shouldn't be there" line is missing the point when talking about people who are deliberately trying to hurt themselves, as strictly true as it may be).

Edited December 29, 2019 by Reorte

[royaloak]

On 28/12/2019 at 09:35, boxbrownie said:

I understand the obvious, what I fail to understand was your lack of sympathy for the victim of this (almost certainly) accident.

 

Out of here..........

What almost certain accident?

The one near Taunton?

 

If so you are very wrong!

If you would like to discuss the matter with Dave (the train driver involved) I would be more than happy to pass your phone number onto him so he can call you to discuss EXACTLY what was involved!

[royaloak]

On 28/12/2019 at 10:33, Mark Saunders said:

 

The other people I really feel for are those that have to pick the pieces up! What I can never forget heard on the Police radio during the aftermath of the one I had and can never unhear; "we can't find his head".

 

 

Would that be Surbiton by any chance, it did take a while didnt it!

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, Neil said:

 

There are many victims when someone commits suicide by train. In this day and age I hope that we would have unconditional sympathy for someone who feels at such a state that the only remedy is to take their own life. 

Why should we?

I have a lot of sympathy for somebody who is at rock bottom, I have zero sympathy if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!

 

As for the rest of your post I agree 100% but it does beg the question where were the family and friends on the run up to 'the end'?