A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[2ManySpams]

Had a thought.....

What would have happened if Stanier had not been head hunted by the LM&S.....

Now there was a good Swindon man...

Mmmmmm streamlined Coronation in GWR green..

And I had only just emerged after the all clear...

That's just the point I was making. Time sort of stood still on the GWR post WW2. Other lines slowly moved towards building more utilitarian locos that almost filled the loading gauge. The GWR carried on in a quaint little time bubble, which is probably why it is attractive to so many.

 

As you say, it would have been interesting to have seen the extent to which Stanier's influence would have been felt had he stayed at home. Not being faced with rubbish coal, I doubt he'd have produced locos with such high degree of superheat.

 

He also wouldn't have had the need to build more locos as there was already a good stock compared to the mixed bag the LMS inherited.

 

The issues with GWR locos really only became apparent as coal quality declined and maintaining old fashioned complexities became more difficult. the GWR didn't really have an easy to maintain, burn anything mentality. Was the closest they got the last generation of dock tank - 15xx?

 

It's one of those 'what if' mysteries that's fun to ponder. Another would be 'what if Bulleid had stayed with the LNER'?

 

In both cases they moved to gain greater opportunity to do what they wanted - to engineer new locos. And that means we'll never know.

 

This does raise the question as to what the BR standard classes would have been had Stanier and Bulleid not pushed boundaries and developed their teams and encouraged Ivatt and Riddles etc

[Stubby47]

That's far too deep for this time of the morning !

[2ManySpams]

Sorry Stu, is this better?

[buffalo]

Now just remind me again , how many years in service did they get compared to the

'old fashioned' Great Western locos .

 

 Oh yes , 1940's to 1960's as compared to 1920's to 1960's ,  the case for the defence rests .

 

Hmm, the defence is only warming up. As far as the design goes Castles were, after all, just improved Stars, so it's comparing a 1900s design to a 1940s one. You'll find that Castles look quite modern when compared to the singles and 2-4-0s of the 1860s

 

Nick

[NHY 581]

Sorry Stu, is this better?

images (8).jpg

Thanks. Managed to drop my dunked malted milk biscuit into my tea on sighting that image of Dame Agutter. ...where's my flippin spoon..

 

Please refrain from posting such images before 10am.

 

Thank you.

 

Rub

[2ManySpams]

Thanks. Managed to drop my dunked malted milk biscuit into my tea on sighting that image of Dame Agutter. ...where's my flippin spoon..

Please refrain from posting such images before 10am.

Thank you.

Rub

Good job I chose that image. I dread to think what state you'd be in with others...

[colin penfold]

Definite offence there. Pigeonholing has been illegal in England and Wales since 1763. On the Isle of Man you can still be birched if found committing.

 

Don't do it. No matter how tempted you may be. It is a bad thing.

 

Rob.

 

So is the offence committed by the pigeonholer or the pidgeonholee?? just checking.....

Edited September 19, 2014 by colin penfold

[Mallard60022]

My God she (Jenny), (pause to regain appropriate level of sanity)........ really is good looking and she must be as old as the Finchings.

Just to throw in a penneth; the 'Rebuilds' were designed (on accounts that is) to work well into the 70s. They were virtually new locomotives. It was, of course, a waste of time and money in many respects as with the Standards and this said however much I/we love steam.

P

P.S. Spams, what is that cigarette box thingy that you are building?

 Is it your GCE metalwork project?

Quackers.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mallard60022

[2ManySpams]

That cigarette box thing is possibly the first and last foreign loco I'm building. Too many curves in daft places. It's a Greasy Wet and Rusty 1366 dock tank as worked on the Bodmin and Wenford after my beloved Beattie Well Tanks were brutally retired. Now there's a comparison of 'old' and 'new' design philosophies for you in the BWT and 1366.

[The Stationmaster]

That's far too deep for this time of the morning !

Agree, and somewhat inaccurate as well as Swindon made some very significant advances after the war (ok the 'County' didn't do what it was meant to do until the 1950s mods) with moves towards higher temperature superheat and its workshop practice was already ahead of other companies so no need to catch up on that.  Best accolade of all - first a Swindon man went off to sort out the 'ell of a mess then, some years later, another one is on his way to sort out Doncaster and finally solve the failings of the middle big end on Gresley's engines (which had of course been developed from their poor start to emulate GWR principles.

 

And of course although it was by then BR the great Sam Ell was 100% Swindon through and through and wrought the changes that enabled some GW express engines to do the best work of their lives as well as making one of Ivatt's LMS duds actually do what its designer had hoped.

 

The strange thing about Bulleid is that he was so innovative without ever having worked at Swindon - quite an achievement that 

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry Stu, is this better?

images ( 8).jpg

Is she wearing leather?

[2ManySpams]

Hmm, the defence is only warming up. As far as the design goes Castles were, after all, just improved Stars, so it's comparing a 1900s design to a 1940s one. You'll find that Castles look quite modern when compared to the singles and 2-4-0s of the 1860s

 

Nick

Absolutely no doubt the Wessy was ahead of the game for many years but they did get left behind in the last 20-30 years of steam and designs IMO didn't keep up with the demands of external pressures such as a lack of folk wanting to do dirty loco maintenance jobs. Austerity designs didn't really get considered to anywhere the same degree as on other lines.

 

Mind you not all labour saving devices worked as intended. In addition the way the pioneer diesel / diesel hydraulic programme was delivered is an abject lesson in how not to do a major transformation project. Sadly politicians love to meddle...

 

We can't really argue with history but can wonder what if for fun. It's all very interesting when you start reading into the backgrounds of various CMEs.

 

What's not immediately apparent is the degree to which the CMEs moved around and how their teams comprised of staff from all over. Often moves were sanctioned by other's agreement. Bulleid had long discussions with Greasley, who gave him his blessing. I also seem to remember that Stanier's move happened in a similar gentlemanly way (but stand to be corrected).

 

I don't know to what extent folk came into Swindon but there's many examples of them going far and wide. Was there not enough opportunity to challenge them internally and gain promotion?

[2ManySpams]

Is she wearing leather?

Nurse!

[2ManySpams]

Agree, and somewhat inaccurate as well as Swindon made some very significant advances after the war (ok the 'County' didn't do what it was meant to do until the 1950s mods) with moves towards higher temperature superheat and its workshop practice was already ahead of other companies so no need to catch up on that. Best accolade of all - first a Swindon man went off to sort out the 'ell of a mess then, some years later, another one is on his way to sort out Doncaster and finally solve the failings of the middle big end on Gresley's engines (which had of course been developed from their poor start to emulate GWR principles.

 

And of course although it was by then BR the great Sam Ell was 100% Swindon through and through and wrought the changes that enabled some GW express engines to do the best work of their lives as well as making one of Ivatt's LMS duds actually do what its designer had hoped.

 

The strange thing about Bulleid is that he was so innovative without ever having worked at Swindon - quite an achievement that

And of course Holcroft went to the Southern from wessy. What Bulleid really needed though was someone to keep him in check rather than Holcroft who had his share of interesting ideas.

 

The N Class were IMO a good example of bringing best practices together from all over. GWR tapered boiler but with added superheating. Outside, long lap valve gear. Midland cab and tender. It nearly became one of a standard range of locos to be used across all the railway companies but then someone started WW1.

[buffalo]

...The N Class were IMO a good example of bringing best practices together from all over. GWR tapered boiler but with added superheating...

 

Not sure what you're getting at here, the GWR started to apply superheating in 1906

 

Nick

Edited September 19, 2014 by buffalo

[gwrrob]

Dave Jones has thrown a curveball/dummy with his announcement via Kernow of a LSWR roadvan.He told me he'd been taking lots of photos at the SDR recently.I'd been hoping for a toad.Looks a nice model though.

[2ManySpams]

Not sure what you're getting at here, the GWR started to apply superheating in 1906

 

Nick

Comparatively low degree though. Stanier took the same low degree over to the LMS and, without decent coal, got poor results.

 

What I was getting at was that the N Class was an example of almost starting from a clean sheet and bringing together lots of ideas and then improving on them. When researching the Ns for a book it became apparent that they were truly one of the most forward looking (and overlooked ) designs of their time.

 

Dave Jones has thrown a curveball/dummy with his announcement via Kernow of a LSWR roadvan.He told me he'd been taking lots of photos at the SDR recently.I'd been hoping for a toad.Looks a nice model though.

The swine!

[buffalo]

Comparatively low degree though. Stanier took the same low degree over to the LMS and, without decent coal, got poor results....

 

Yes, but the simple 'more superheat is better' argument doesn't wash. The GWR didn't need more in the early days, provided the steam remained dry from inlet to exhaust, no more was needed, indeed it was a waste. The aim of superheating is to provide dry steam, not higher temperature. This was easily achieved with relatively low levels of superheat and good Welsh coal, but others with poorer coal needed higher levels of superheat to achieve the same effect. In fact, the Schmitt type fitted to the first superheated engine in the country, 2901 in 1906, and the Cole type fitted to 4010 in 1907 both produced more superheat than was needed and this was recognised in the design of subsequent Swindon superheaters.

 

Later, Hawksworth went for higher levels of superheat, not because big numbers are better or that it was intrinsically better, but simply because the quality of GWR coal supplies declined through the thirties and the war years. He simply needed higher superheat for the same reason that others had faced years earlier.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Dave Jones has thrown a curveball/dummy with his announcement via Kernow of a LSWR roadvan.He told me he'd been taking lots of photos at the SDR recently.I'd been hoping for a toad.Looks a nice model though.

It's Kernow commission Rob - not a DJM 'own' model - and all the research work has been done by Graham Muz.  Dave will presume do as he does with other Kernow commissions and manage the factory liaison and progresss on Kernow's behalf plus some technical input to the design, particularly of the mechanism.  It's a bit confusing the way these things are announced but basically with all the commissioned models that I'm aware of the commissioner has done the research and checks the CADs and EPs etc for compliance while, in the case of Dapol in the past, and now DJM,  Dave provides technical input and manages progress as part of the liaison and relationship with China.

 

So for example on the Kernow 1361 much of the prototype input has come from me and the GWS, Chris at Kernow has chosen the running numbers and liveries and Dave manages the process with the factory etc.  As far as i know a similar situation applies with the development of the Hattons 'King' where the prototype detail variation is being handled by Hattons people who pas the specs to DJM (the chap we spoke to at the Ricoh last Saturday is one of Hattons folk dealing with prototype detail and they've got a pretty good grasp on it - I only managed to find one small thing, in the cab, where he hadn't got a detail change already in his mind and that was because as far as I know it's not in any printed reference sources).  Provided the design and manufacture is right I'm increasingly convinced that the Hattons 'King' is going to be the one to beat.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, but the simple 'more superheat is better' argument doesn't wash. The GWR didn't need more in the early days, provided the steam remained dry from inlet to exhaust, no more was needed, indeed it was a waste. The aim of superheating is to provide dry steam, not higher temperature. This was easily achieved with relatively low levels of superheat and good Welsh coal, but others with poorer coal needed higher levels of superheat to achieve the same effect. In fact, the Schmitt type fitted to the first superheated engine in the country, 2901 in 1906, and the Cole type fitted to 4010 in 1907 both produced more superheat than was needed and this was recognised in the design of subsequent Swindon superheaters.

 

Later, Hawksworth went for higher levels of superheat, not because big numbers are better or that it was intrinsically better, but simply because the quality of GWR coal supplies declined through the thirties and the war years. He simply needed higher superheat for the same reason that others had faced years earlier.

 

Nick

A point worth making here is the matter of lubrication.  One reason Churchward steered clear of higher superheat temperatures - after some trials with them - was that problems arose with lubrication, something which afflicted (some) other Railways trying higher superheat temperatures prior to 1914.

 

As better oils were developed, along with improved mechanical lubricators, it became possible to raise superheat temperatures without creating problems in such areas as piston ring wear.  Perhaps if the GWR had moved earlier to mechanical lubricators it might have gone for higher superheat temperature but it considered its wn system to be not only satisfactory but to offer Drivers far better control of oil flow so it stayed with it.

[2ManySpams]

Yes, but the simple 'more superheat is better' argument doesn't wash. The GWR didn't need more in the early days, provided the steam remained dry from inlet to exhaust, no more was needed, indeed it was a waste. The aim of superheating is to provide dry steam, not higher temperature. This was easily achieved with relatively low levels of superheat and good Welsh coal, but others with poorer coal needed higher levels of superheat to achieve the same effect. In fact, the Schmitt type fitted to the first superheated engine in the country, 2901 in 1906, and the Cole type fitted to 4010 in 1907 both produced more superheat than was needed and this was recognised in the design of subsequent Swindon superheaters.

 

Later, Hawksworth went for higher levels of superheat, not because big numbers are better or that it was intrinsically better, but simply because the quality of GWR coal supplies declined through the thirties and the war years. He simply needed higher superheat for the same reason that others had faced years earlier.

 

Nick

I agree, it was the good fortune of having good quality coal that determined the degree of superheated applied, as you say there's no point wasting energy. You must accept though that this put the Western at a disadvantage when coal quality declined. Others to varying degrees of necessity had already developed a 'it must be able to burn any old rubbish' approach. Did the need to be fed to quality coal restrict Western locos usefulness and potential sphere of operation post nationalisation and how does it affect those examples preserved when working tours? The case of an original positive becoming a later negative??

 

By the way I'm not degrading anyone's favourite line or locos - it's just me mulling over how chance, time, environment and the past influences of the folk involved have given us such a wide a varied fleet of loco types in the UK.

[Mallard60022]

Blimey, this is getting technical and all because I insulted the fag box. (1361 PT)

I actually knew what Spams was making as I have been looking at his magnifico Pencarrow Blog thingy. I also know those PTs as they were unusual. My other favourite Swindon product was the 15XX PTs............beasts and great fun to watch thundering in and out of Paddington.

Quackers.

[2ManySpams]

Blimey, this is getting technical and all because I insulted the fag box. (1361 PT)

I actually knew what Spams was making as I have been looking at his magnifico Pencarrow Blog thingy. I also know those PTs as they were unusual. My other favourite Swindon product was the 15XX PTs............beasts and great fun to watch thundering in and out of Paddington.

Quackers.

Yes, I hold you to blame too.

[gwrrob]

 

 

So for example on the Kernow 1361 much of the prototype input has come from me and the GWS, Chris at Kernow has chosen the running numbers and liveries and Dave manages the process with the factory etc.  As far as i know a similar situation applies with the development of the Hattons 'King' where the prototype detail variation is being handled by Hattons people who pas the specs to DJM (the chap we spoke to at the Ricoh last Saturday is one of Hattons folk dealing with prototype detail and they've got a pretty good grasp on it - I only managed to find one small thing, in the cab, where he hadn't got a detail change already in his mind and that was because as far as I know it's not in any printed reference sources).  Provided the design and manufacture is right I'm increasingly convinced that the Hattons 'King' is going to be the one to beat.

 

The two guys on the Hatton's stand at RMweb live ,one was Dave and I can't remember the other's name, came across as very knowledgeable and keen that the King  really is the King of the models.They shewed me the 4000 photos they took at Didcot to ensure the detail is correct for every combination.Mouthwatering stuff and I was impressed by both Hattons 'can do' attitude and the possibilty of something special being made.They came across to me as trying to cast off their 'box shifters' image as being modellers themselves too.

Edited September 19, 2014 by gwrrob

[2ManySpams]

So what do folk consider to be the pinnacle of GWR steam locomotive design, the ultimate in achievement and modernity so to speak, and why?

 

Discuss.

 

(i am interested)