Shopping blind. What would you do?

[Highlandman]

I've just been looking at some online suppliers of kits and accessories after visiting Expo EM at Bracknell. I'm not going to mention any names as most  suppliers are very helpful and offer a very good service. But why oh why do they insist on having a web presence with an online shop and then not put on a decent description or product picture.

 

This can be very frustrating at times and is akin to going into a department store and walking around with your eyes shut. It makes it even worse when the photoless item then has a very brief if not non existant description.

 

This is all well and good if you know what you are exactly looking for, but if you are just browsing or need to know a bit more about the item before you part with cash, it can be very frustrating. I am well aware that some suppliers can carry many hundreds of lines, but I think to sell these effectively to all modellers you need a good picture and description.

 

Not everyone is able to get to specialist shows to look and search for items so being able to see and read about products online is an essential part of their modelling.

 

So PLEASE can suppliers who use the internet as a virtual store please stock their shelves with products that have a full and proper description with a photograph, colour if possible, to us spend our money wisely and with some idea of what we are going to get.

[newbryford]

Easier said than done.

Many suppliers are one man band/cottage industry and haven't always got the resources to build and maintain websites. If the detail isn't there on the website, then a good old fashioned phonecall can often do the trick.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[96701]

I've just been looking at some online suppliers of kits and accessories after visiting Expo EM at Bracknell. I'm not going to mention any names as most  suppliers are very helpful and offer a very good service. But why oh why do they insist on having a web presence with an online shop and then not put on a decent description or product picture.

 

This can be very frustrating at times and is akin to going into a department store and walking around with your eyes shut. It makes it even worse when the photoless item then has a very brief if not non existant description.

 

This is all well and good if you know what you are exactly looking for, but if you are just browsing or need to know a bit more about the item before you part with cash, it can be very frustrating. I am well aware that some suppliers can carry many hundreds of lines, but I think to sell these effectively to all modellers you need a good picture and description.

 

Not everyone is able to get to specialist shows to look and search for items so being able to see and read about products online is an essential part of their modelling.

 

So PLEASE can suppliers who use the internet as a virtual store please stock their shelves with products that have a full and proper description with a photograph, colour if possible, to us spend our money wisely and with some idea of what we are going to get.

And in the mean time, here is the moon on a stick.

 

[Talltim]

Easier said than done.

Many suppliers are one man band/cottage industry and haven't always got the resources to build and maintain websites. If the detail isn't there on the website, then a good old fashioned phonecall can often do the trick.

 

Cheers,

Mick

I appreciate the time aspect for one man bands, but you can't see the items over the phone either

[durham light infantry]

If you want to wait for xxxx to come out in a blue or red box, which you can order off an e-commerce website and shake out onto the track, I think we will all have shunted off into the eternal sidings a long time ago. In nearly 40 years of modelling, some of the best aftermarket items I have bought have come at scale shows where the "manufacturers" product listing has been a badly reproduced A4 sheet. I would love some Clarence Railway left sided widgets. But I feel the handful of people who can reproduce them are best suited to that task, and are giving some widgets to a Clarence Railway enthusiast whom they hope will repay them with some IT knowhow. 

 

Mike

[newbryford]

I appreciate the time aspect for one man bands, but you can't see the items over the phone either

 

Maybe, but a phone call is better than nothing at all. At least you can get a description of the item. Other benefits from the personal call can be details about postage - this detail is often vague on websites. A call may also fill in a few missing details from the website.

For example: I found out so much about making my own etched project via a phonecall rather than any info on the www.

 

(I do also appreciate that a phonecall from non-UK based modellers may not be easy/cheap to accomplish)

 

In some respects, not having a fully maintained/fully featured website doesn't quite fit in with our "I want it now 24/7" lifestyle, but I can remember the days of dodgy printed lists and "wait up to 28 days" before the order arrived, not quite knowing exactly what you're going to get! (Although I often knew what I was going to get because I'd scoured the model press of the day for the tiniest photo!)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Dunsignalling]

Easier said than done.

Many suppliers are one man band/cottage industry and haven't always got the resources to build and maintain websites. If the detail isn't there on the website, then a good old fashioned phonecall can often do the trick.

 

Cheers,

Mick

This is an area where membership of a club/group/RMWeb can help by providing access to the opinions of others who have already used the items of interest. 

 

John

[cromptonnut]

Many suppliers are one man band/cottage industry and haven't always got the resources to build and maintain websites.

 

With all the modern "website authoring tools" that are out there, I would have thought designing a website would be much easier than designing a kit...

 

To be honest, a poor and virtually useless website is probably worse than no website at all.

[Guest oldlugger]

I agree with cromptonnut. There's no excuse anymore; anyone can make a good user friendly website with no knowledge of website design (with great photos, online sales facilities, etc, etc) for free; even have it hosted for free. The design wizards on these sites are a doddle, and you can do it all and have it online in a morning.

 

Simon

[Pete 75C]

I built a website in a day for my business using Microsoft Sharepoint which was free. Very intuitive and full use of Microsoft support if you need it. Registering a domain cost about £6 for two years and the cost of hosting is around £25 per year. If you're in business, a website is now a must, and if you have a website, uploading pictures and decent descriptions shouldn't be a problem. Some retailers have no website or email contact, just a phone number. We can think what we like about technology and moan how it's killing social skills blah blah etc etc... but times change. Like it or not we have to change with them. I for one, do not like purchasing something I haven't at least seen a picture of.

Pete.

[cromptonnut]

I agree with cromptonnut. There's no excuse anymore; anyone can make a good user friendly website with no knowledge of website design (with great photos, online sales facilities, etc, etc) for free; even have it hosted for free. The design wizards on these sites are a doddle, and you can do it all and have it online in a morning.

 

 

Of course, full e-commerce and online ordering is another matter but a simple "illustrated directory of products" shouldn't be beyond the realms of most people.  Even if they don't have a digital camera themselves, for example, someone in the family or friends circle will - and in fact the camera on my mobile phone is 3x better than my current "digital camera" which is a few years old and needs replacing.

[Gwiwer]

I'd like to disagree that it is possible to have a fully interactive and functional web site "for free" and that it may be "easy" to design.  

 

Many of those one-man cottage businesses we so often rely on are managed by that one man working very long hours already and not necessarily with any inkling of how to set up and run a web site.  Yes there are "wizards" out there but there are also hosting fees and the more images used the greater the bandwidth required which can also have cost implications.  As business increases so site traffic also chews up bandwidth and therefore generates more expense.

 

I don't run a business but I do have a small hosted web presence.  It has always cost me a small amount annually in fees; I cannot get what I want for nothing.  If I were to set up a business with, let's say, 1000 items offered then I would need to host 1000 images (at least) which means having to take them first or possibly pay to use someone else's.  I need to set up the site, upload the images, enter text, format the lot, possibly include data encryption and if I was trying to sell those items then I'd need a payment system.  Even the most basic option of using a Paypal account costs me money as they take a percentage fee of inbound transactions.

 

I can also choose to pay someone to set up the same site for me.  I may then not fully understand how it all works and require technical support at times.  That all costs money and usually some of my time.

 

Remember that while very many members of younger generations are "tech-savvy" and learn these things in school those who didn't and who have become self-taught computer users aren't always so adaptable.  Many of those in the one-man business in our hobby probably fall into that category.

 

An internet presence is more or less an essential now if you seek global business.  Not everyone does.  It should be at the least a shop window for your products but not all might require images.  You can describe screws, nails and such like perfectly well in plain text.  The days of the scrappily-copied A4 sheet are hopefully dying out but a full conversion to modern electronic commerce will take more time. 

 

Respect to those who do and understanding to those who don't or can't.  

[cromptonnut]

Low res image optimisation isn't difficult and can save tons of bandwidth.

 

If you have thousands of items for sale then you aren't likely to be a "Fred in a shed" one man band operating your business in your spare time.

 

I have no problem paying via Paypal, direct bank transfer or even cheque once I know what I want to order, but if I can't see what it is I don't know what I need to order.  If they're in, say, Aberdeen then it's highly unlikely they're also going to get to shows anywhere near me down here in Surrey so I can see their wares for myself.

 

Not sure what you mean about "younger generations", I'm 40 and can hand-code basic HTML using Notepad without any fancy wizards and stuff. 

[Rowsley17D]

Don't forget that with anything you buy off the web you have a 14 day period to return the goods and get your money back and you don't need an excuse for returning them. Not that I am advocating buying stuff for the sake of sending it back.

[Talltim]

There's a world of difference between a full online store with realtime stock levels etc, and a simple online photo catalogue. I would prefer a printed catalogue with photos and have to ring up or post a cheque than a fancy ecommerce site with no info on the products.

[Highlandman]

I certainly appreciate that small one-man traders have to deal with all parts of the business to make it successful, and therefore by its very nature they can be busier than some bigger companies where work loads can be shared out. But I do feel that if they are going to have a web presence at all it should be done in a proper and business like way, after all it is their shop window to the world. A simple phone call can get you a lot of information, but usually between certain times of the day only. By having a fully illustrated website with product descriptions, online ordering or printable order forms it allows the small trader to be open 24/7, and to generate far more orders than they could by just using the telephone or 'snail mail'.

 

The way we run small businesses has changed dramatically in the last 10 -15 years. Our electronic age has allowed us to be in contact with far more people than we previously did and has allowed us to have a much wider capture area for our customers. Fewer and fewer specialist traders are going to the smaller model railway exhibitions. Only sticking to the more specialist shows such as Expo EM or Scaleforum, or the bigger shows such as Warley and Ally Pally. Citing traveling expenses and high stand costs as a reason for not attending smaller shows it must be a huge benefit to them to have a proper and professional web presence to keep customer orders coming in.

[Pete 75C]

I had a conversation recently with a "small trader" that doesn't "do" the internet. He said he would if someone would come round to his house and show him how and even then, he would only do it if there was no cost involved.

Absolutely unbelievable. For anyone in business, the phrase "you have to spend some money to make some money" is instantly recognizable. My own business start-up involved a vehicle, sign-writing, advertising, (minimal) website costs, tools etc etc etc. It all adds up, and that's before any money comes in. Nice if someone had offered to cover all my costs, but it doesn't happen, does it?

I do appreciate that creating a website, establishing even an email address etc can be daunting but it's not impossible and it doesn't take much time. I'd never created a website but it only took me a day and I'm certainly not very savvy when it comes to the internet. For £25 a year I get a gigabyte of storage and unlimited traffic. Enough for more than a couple of images I reckon.

I'm afraid my local model shop is going the same way with an attitude along the lines of "I don't need a website - if someone wants to buy from me, they'll walk through my door". Bury your head in the sand and ignore the thousands of modellers who probably only shop online and you're courting trouble.

If a lot of people on this forum as well as the small cottage industry type traders have the ability to create something exquisite from a sheet of brass, getting established on the internet should be child's play. By comparison, it's easy! I also don't agree with the statement that they might not have time. Make time or watch your turnover stall and start to to reduce.

Pete.

[cromptonnut]

If a lot of people on this forum as well as the small cottage industry type traders have the ability to create something exquisite from a sheet of brass, getting established on the internet should be child's play.

 

... assuming they can find a shop that stocks said sheet of brass in the first place. 

[Bruciethefish]

Coming from the other side of the fence, as a one-man business, I appreciate the need for a fairly comprehensive web presence, & would be without a significant proportion of my income without it. However, my attempts at creating my own were basically appalling, prompting computer-savvy friends to phone up with instructions to shoot whoever had designed them... (places gun to head..)

It is these same friends that now ensure I have something which looks sensible & works, but I myself am totally clueless as to how it's maintained or updated, particularly as said friends seem to talk in some language I can't understand when it comes to computing.. 

If it's mechanical, I can generally figure out how it works & either fix or make it, but those of us getting near our bus passes do not necessarily take to 'modern' technology likes ducks to water.. 

[Gwiwer]

I have to agree with the previous post.  It sums up my position as well.  I taught myself the Qwerty keyboard on an old bangaway tripewriter and haven't really gained any learning beyond that in terms of how to drive a computer.  That's not to say I couldn't learn but those courses I have had seemed to be demonstrations by enthusiasts (nerds, geeks if you like) or were task-specific such as understanding the functionality required by employment.

 

The "urban myth" about an older person being asked to "cut and paste" reaching for the scissors isn't all that mythical.  It happens.  Most of us below the age of 50 have learned home or office computing as part of life; many of us older than that won't have.  I still get amazed looks telling people I had graduated from university before ever seeing a computer. How ever did we cope with all the analyses and data management?  We did it with pens and paper and we learned the likes of long division and logarithms.  

 

I can still work out logs,  tangents and the like from scratch but ask me about cascading sheets and I'll refer you not to any web pages but to the pile which is my personal in-tray

 

Back in the modelling context we are often happy to pay others to make models for us (RtR or sometimes custom-made) and a few of us turn the tables and earn a living by making those models.  Just as many of us pay to have web sites designed and maintained without the skills to do so ourselves while others having those skills reap the rewards for sharing them.

[forest2807]

Not sure what you mean about "younger generations", I'm 40 and can hand-code basic HTML using Notepad without any fancy wizards and stuff. 

 

Conversely, I'm 40 too but I haven't got a clue what any of this means.

[t-b-g]

Of course we are discussing this issue via the internet. We choose to join a web based forum and everybody on here knows how to log on to the internet and find our way around a website.

 

The assumption that 1) everybody knows how to create and maintain a pretty full and detailed website and 2) that those who don't know how to should learn as a matter of urgency to fit in with a way of life that seems to be absolutely essential to some of us is, in my view, a little bit OTT. Can't we just accept that some people don't like computers and the internet as much as we clearly all do?

 

If a business manages to do what its owner wants it to do without websites and such, why should we be telling them to change the way they run their operations, just to suit us.

 

Is there any one of us who enjoys somebody turning up at their place of work and saying "You are doing that wrong" when what you are doing is achieving what you want to achieve.

 

We have an easy choice. We can either accept it or we can choose to use another business that does have a website that we like.

 

I know a good few traders and they put in many, many hours of work for very small rewards. Every hour they spend updating a website costs them because in that time they are not making, packaging and posting products. One or two of them do huge amounts of mail order business and have websites where many products are not illustrated, just listed. If some of these traders managed to double their turnover by having a fully interactive singing dancing website they would be totally swamped. Some of them have thousands of products. How long to set up, photograph from a couple of angles and download 2,000 products? You tell me!

 

So, back to the question. I would ask around to see if anybody else has used the products and if they are any good. RMWeb is quite good for this! I would order the parts and if they are not what I expected or wanted I would send the back and ask for a refund.

 

I have just completed a rare "blind" purchase via the internet and what I purchased (very nicely illustrated on the web site) was actually quite poor in quality (couldn't tell that from the web photos) and very overpriced for what it is. So even having a decent illustration is no guarantee of a happy purchase. I have the option of returning it if I want to and I feel that is quite an adequate protection.

 

So can't we just be a little tolerant of those who choose to do things their way rather than "our" way.

 

Tony

[96701]

Thank you t-b-g. You have stated far more eloquently that which I tried to say in post #3.

[alfsboy]

I use Lycos trellix site builder . If I can do it anyone can . I'm 66 and have never been shown anything on a computer  but I built a basic website as soon as I got my first iMac.Its really annoying when you dont know what something looks like  until you see  a picture and description  . If I cant see a picture of what I want to buy I dont buy it full stop .If a manufacturer ,however small, cant be bothered to supply one i cant be bothered to buy it . Some goods I have bought sight unseen have been sub par .

Actually a lot of 3d printing is like this .You see a great picture of a 3D computer image but nothing on the fuzzy pimpled stepped object that is the product you get .

[Pete 75C]

<snip>

 

So can't we just be a little tolerant of those who choose to do things their way rather than "our" way.

 

Tony

 

Agreed. The answer truly is "each to their own way of doing things" and I have the ultimate respect for that. But (you knew there was a "but" coming) I doubt I'd buy from a small supplier if telephone calls / snail mail and shopping somewhat "blind" was the order of the day. I'm sure I'm not alone on that - I don't have unlimited time to write cheques, post letters and chase phone calls. Those small suppliers that are in the business for the joy of it will no doubt get by and be quite happy with their turnover, but I would be in the business to make money. As much of it as I can. End of. I don't work for fun - I work for money. That doesn't mean that I can't offer terrific customer service with a smile. I may only get 3 hours of sleep a night but that would be my choice. I'd personally go for the website and volume sales. The local back street model shops are dying and nothing I can do will bring them back. Everyone's going to have a different viewpoint on this and I guess that's as it should be.

Pete.