Fat Controller Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 One of the reasons that the unfitted ones were a lot tattier is that the ones used for anthracite shipping traffic would stand with loads of wet 'duff' in them for weeks on end, whilst they waited for ships. The 'duff' (think coal-coloured mud..) seemed to be unusually corrosive, so the bottoms of the sides would rot through. As a short-term fix, rather than stop the wagons to be welded, the holes would be packed with straw, as would the gaps between the side doors and their frames. The riveted wagons seem especially prone to this, but welded ones were also affected; I remember a 16-tonner that was so bad, the electro-magnet in the scrap-bay at BSC Landore lifted chunks of body away with the load of scrap.. The fitted ones had a much more pampered existence, at least in the early days, mainly being used on circuits between pits and power stations or steelworks; they didn't tend to stand around loaded for long. They weren't used for shipment coal until quite late, as the end-tipping hoists at Swansea Docks were incompatible with the brake gear. It was only when these hoists were replaced by grabs that they were used, and even then they didn't stand around loaded, as removing the hoists, and their associated approach tracks gave a large stocking area for coal between ships arriving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 One of the reasons that the unfitted ones were a lot tattier is that the ones used for anthracite shipping traffic would stand with loads of wet 'duff' in them for weeks on end, whilst they waited for ships. The 'duff' (think coal-coloured mud..) seemed to be unusually corrosive, so the bottoms of the sides would rot through. As a short-term fix, rather than stop the wagons to be welded, the holes would be packed with straw, as would the gaps between the side doors and their frames. The riveted wagons seem especially prone to this, but welded ones were also affected; I remember a 16-tonner that was so bad, the electro-magnet in the scrap-bay at BSC Landore lifted chunks of body away with the load of scrap.. The fitted ones had a much more pampered existence, at least in the early days, mainly being used on circuits between pits and power stations or steelworks; they didn't tend to stand around loaded for long. They weren't used for shipment coal until quite late, as the end-tipping hoists at Swansea Docks were incompatible with the brake gear. It was only when these hoists were replaced by grabs that they were used, and even then they didn't stand around loaded, as removing the hoists, and their associated approach tracks gave a large stocking area for coal between ships arriving. how was it cost effective to have wagons sat for so long doing nothing??? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 (edited) Interesting.....any ideas why they would turn a two door into a single door....I would have thought it harder to empty..... Yes, you would of thought so wouldn't you. I'm afraid I can't give the reason, as I don't know!!!!. I do know that many single door wagons ended up with the ED. I just thought I'd offer an alternate, from what had already been offered. Jinty ;-) PS: I too am waiting to see that Western Edited August 8, 2014 by Jintyman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 how was it cost effective to have wagons sat for so long doing nothing??? Since when was BR cost Effective???????? Jinty ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Since when was BR cost Effective???????? Jinty ;-) Ah one of the heavily subsidised companies????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 One of the reasons that the unfitted ones were a lot tattier is that the ones used for anthracite shipping traffic would stand with loads of wet 'duff' in them for weeks on end, whilst they waited for ships. The 'duff' (think coal-coloured mud..) seemed to be unusually corrosive, so the bottoms of the sides would rot through. As a short-term fix, rather than stop the wagons to be welded, the holes would be packed with straw, as would the gaps between the side doors and their frames. The riveted wagons seem especially prone to this, but welded ones were also affected; I remember a 16-tonner that was so bad, the electro-magnet in the scrap-bay at BSC Landore lifted chunks of body away with the load of scrap.. The fitted ones had a much more pampered existence, at least in the early days, mainly being used on circuits between pits and power stations or steelworks; they didn't tend to stand around loaded for long. They weren't used for shipment coal until quite late, as the end-tipping hoists at Swansea Docks were incompatible with the brake gear. It was only when these hoists were replaced by grabs that they were used, and even then they didn't stand around loaded, as removing the hoists, and their associated approach tracks gave a large stocking area for coal between ships arriving. I wonder why it never occurred to them to build the wagons with small plugs which could be opened and drained, or left open when not in use....DOH. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Cost effectiveness; the wagons were relatively cheap 'boxes on wheels' which had been written down years before, so the only costs to BR were in maintaining the running gear and moving them. There were, even into the 1970s, several thousand wagons involved in this shipment traffic; rakes would be seen standing at the washeries, at intermediate yards such as Llandeilo Junction, Briton Ferry, Jersey Marine and Swansea Burrows, as well as the sidings at the docks themselves; once a ship berthed, the ones at the dock would be emptied first, then the others brought up to replace them. The priority was to get the boat loaded as quickly as possible, as the ship-owners had to bear the cost of keeping the boat standing; if all worked correctly, then the ship, with perhaps 5000 tons of coal on board, would be on its way within a day or so. Drainage; the wagons leaked water (and slurry), but the soggy slurry never dried out properly. Perhaps the most effective way of stopping the rusting at the bottom of the sides was that used on the rebodied 16-tonners, which had a curve, rather than a right angle, so material didn't stick as much. Single-door 21t wagons; these last rebodies were intended for used either on rotary tipplers (as at many power stations) or by grab. The door was retained largely to make it easy to sweep out the insides when wagons were moved between scrap, coal and stone traffic. The same logic applied to the Great Western 20-tonners, which had one (or sometimes two) end doors, but minimal-sized side doors (and sometimes none at all). Fine until one went wandering into domestic coal traffic.. There has been a photo on here of one so employed at a merchant's yard in Northern England with the end-door propped open, the coal presumably ending up between the rails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Cost effectiveness; the wagons were relatively cheap 'boxes on wheels' which had been written down years before, so the only costs to BR were in maintaining the running gear and moving them. There were, even into the 1970s, several thousand wagons involved in this shipment traffic; rakes would be seen standing at the washeries, at intermediate yards such as Llandeilo Junction, Briton Ferry, Jersey Marine and Swansea Burrows, as well as the sidings at the docks themselves; once a ship berthed, the ones at the dock would be emptied first, then the others brought up to replace them. The priority was to get the boat loaded as quickly as possible, as the ship-owners had to bear the cost of keeping the boat standing; if all worked correctly, then the ship, with perhaps 5000 tons of coal on board, would be on its way within a day or so. Drainage; the wagons leaked water (and slurry), but the soggy slurry never dried out properly. Perhaps the most effective way of stopping the rusting at the bottom of the sides was that used on the rebodied 16-tonners, which had a curve, rather than a right angle, so material didn't stick as much. Single-door 21t wagons; these last rebodies were intended for used either on rotary tipplers (as at many power stations) or by grab. The door was retained largely to make it easy to sweep out the insides when wagons were moved between scrap, coal and stone traffic. The same logic applied to the Great Western 20-tonners, which had one (or sometimes two) end doors, but minimal-sized side doors (and sometimes none at all). Fine until one went wandering into domestic coal traffic.. There has been a photo on here of one so employed at a merchant's yard in Northern England with the end-door propped open, the coal presumably ending up between the rails. thank you a very useful response, costings written off makes sense, and the door refined mostly for brushing out also makes sense....once pointed out.Curved bodies so no catchment area - as such- seems a fine idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted August 8, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2014 If you don't fancy hacking up a Hornby one (which, being rivetted, has the wrong sort of 'ribbing'), then Roger Chivers does a very nice kit for the MDV; if you're someone who's wary of kits, can I say that it virtually builds itself. http://slimrails.co.uk/index00gauge.html I've done about twenty of these; half built as intended, the other half modified to represent a selection of unfitted ones with different underframes. I did post some photos on an earlier version of RMWeb; I'll do some more, as I've done a few conversions of the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby one as well. These include one with two end-doors, and another as an ex-LMS Loco Coal, with no end-doors, and strengthening plates on the side and top ribs. The idea is to replicate one of the trains that used to take coal to Carmarthen Bay power station in the early 1970s Thanks for the link! Mr. Chivers was on to a good thing with those kits, the pigeon van was especially good. I know Roger had to give up making the kits due to health but was unaware his son is now taking over production. Anyone know how Roger's doing. Decent chap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted August 8, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2014 (edited) Here's a pic of a 24 1/2T Jaz. This one is an old Ian Kirk kit and has a pressed steel end door. It is correctly lettered with B prefix and N suffix. These were taller. This one is a GWR type with two end doors and one small side door also Ian Kirk. I got the two white stripes right but again was lazy with the numbering! Edited August 8, 2014 by Sasquatch 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Thanks for the link! Mr. Chivers was on to a good thing with those kits, the pigeon van was especially good. I know Roger had to give up making the kits due to health but was unaware his son is now taking over production. Anyone know how Roger's doing. Decent chap No problem; Roger's kits are a pleasure to build. One son's being looking after the plastic kits, whilst the other was doing the brass ones. The only difference between Roger's days and now is that the kits no longer have wheels and bearings included, but that's a small price to pay for their continuing availability. That Kirk GW mineral's a nice model- I missed out on these when they were still available. I did pick up some Kirk 24½t minerals at Harbour Models and Crafts in Folkestone when they were closing down. The plastic was a bit 'crumby', but I managed to get them to hold together. Odd that your one has the GWR-type axleguards and boxes, as mine have the BR plate type. I wonder why Parkside reissued some of these kits, but not all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted August 8, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2014 Ian sold some of his range to Parkside and Colin Ashby took over the rest. Colins range was very extensive at one time and consisted of many other manufacturers ex products as well of a few of his own. I've got one of those MR half drop side sleeper wagons somewhere. Very rare model! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Jaz - is your mailbox full? Tried to PM you and it wont let me.. Just so you know.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Clarke 1980 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Hi Kal Hi Jaz iv only just found your thread and I must say it looks amazing as everyone else has said im fairly new to this myself and yours just looks WOW the size the space you have (I can only dream of a room that big) ill look faward to more pics there amazing thank you Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Strange, second day and no Kal or Jaz!!!!!! Hope the phone line hasn't given up the ghost again??? Hope everything is OK? and looking forward to the continuance of much mirth and painting. Jinty ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 37 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Strange, second day and no Kal or Jaz!!!!!! Hope the phone line hasn't given up the ghost again??? Hope everything is OK? and looking forward to the continuance of much mirth and painting. Jinty ;-) Yes, always slightly worrying when Jaz hasn't posted for about 20 minutes. Start getting withdrawal symptoms. Mind you it is the weekend and their not adverse to the odd exhibition or two. Edited August 10, 2014 by Marcus 37 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Wow ........... worrying when Jaz hasn't posted for about 20 minutes. Start getting withdrawal symptoms. ................. sorry to hear that your Broadband is that slow Marcus ........... Running shoes on ... laces done up ..... door wide open ................ flight checks complete - LAUNCH ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Jaz - is your mailbox full? Tried to PM you and it wont let me.. Just so you know.... apologies....just deleted some..... dt told me the 'good' news.....at least it pays the bills..... pm and we'll chat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yes, always slightly worrying when Jaz hasn't posted for about 20 minutes. Start getting withdrawal symptoms. Mind you it is the weekend and their not adverse to the odd exhibition or two. are we saying 'in the kindest of ways' that it has been noticed as i am usually the days top poster....or close to it.....give or take an Andy P which means I must admit to verbal diarrhoea .... which I suppose also means some of my friends need there threads boosted..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Yes, always slightly worrying when Jaz hasn't posted for about 20 minutes. Start getting withdrawal symptoms. Mind you it is the weekend and their not adverse to the odd exhibition or two. However I must admit to... 1. some 1:1 weathering....been cleaning the gutters which were very dirty biggest problem with a bungalow .....there is so much of it attacked the conservatory whilst it was raining ....saved me having to keep changing the bucket for clean water.....very eco..... 2. been modelling some 1:1 the edge of the bath was looking a bit iffy, gave it a clean, grout looked a bit if.....couldn't source grout....overlaid with white sealer. Looooooking good 3. some 1:1 steam cleaning floor and cleaned the rest of the bathroom......if there is a large bang noise.....Kal just fainted.... 4. Also we had a compound near the house for the dogs to be clean....but have decided it's not visitor friendly...removed compound.....walking dogs......or in Kara's case....(the larger black dobermann) she's walking/dragging me Last night dog found hedgehog......hedgehog not impressed hedgehog roll!!!!!! At least the girls then desist....when we had the big old boy dobermann he would pick it up bring it to me and expect a pat. He also had the odd startled pheasant.Lucjily he had a soft mouth and all his catches lived to see a mother day. 5........and there is another ....h....hobby I have been playing colonisation Almost ready to kick the crxp out of the King Apologies to all those suffering from withdrawal....attempts to return to 'normality' will commence Edited August 10, 2014 by Jaz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 need 22 more posts to take Andy P as todays top poster... Colonisation is shouting........... will check in soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted August 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2014 However I must admit to... 1. some 1:1 weathering....been cleaning the gutters which were very dirty biggest problem with a bungalow .....there is so much of it attacked the conservatory whilst it was raining ....saved me having to keep changing the bucket for clean water.....very eco..... 2. been modelling some 1:1 the edge of the bath was looking a bit iffy, gave it a clean, grout looked a bit if.....couldn't source grout....overlaid with white sealer. Looooooking good 3. some 1:1 steam cleaning floor and cleaned the rest of the bathroom......if there is a large bang noise.....Kal just fainted.... 4. Also we had a compound near the house for the dogs to be clean....but have decided it's not visitor friendly...removed compound.....walking dogs......or in Kara's case....(the larger black dobermann) she's walking/dragging me Last night dog found hedgehog......hedgehog not impressed hedgehog roll!!!!!! At least the girls then desist....when we had the big old boy dobermann he would pick it up bring it to me and expect a pat. He also had the odd startled pheasant.Lucjily he had a soft mouth and all his catches lived to see a mother day. 5........and there is another ....h....hobby I have been playing colonisation Almost ready to kick the crxp out of the King Apologies to all those suffering from withdrawal....attempts to return to 'normality' will commence Jaz, Really pleased to hear from you. When someone mentioned you had been off air for so long I wondered what might have happened. Colonization? I will have to ask my son about that one. I know he had it years ago but it was always, as far as I remember a poor second to, Age of Empires, Starwars Galaxy, Galaxy Online, World of Warcraft, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, .......................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, itation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Jaz, Really pleased to hear from you. When someone mentioned you had been off air for so long I wondered what might have happened. Colonization? I will have to ask my son about that one. I know he had it years ago but it was always, as far as I remember a poor second to, Age of Empires, Starwars Galaxy, Galaxy Online, World of Warcraft, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, .......................... ssssh dont mention the WOW....game.....I still get the urge to go do my dailies!!!!! The whole family had a guild, the two bys could get us into the hardest dungeons, very very addictive.......... and I have now not played for a couple of years!!!!!! My personal bank was full to capacity......I was a serious craftsman......sighs.....very addictive.....had to go cold turkey..........kids begged for the materials i had gathered........ Also liked Age of Empires.....but colonisation is just such fun becomes very repetitive to keep a character at the top of the game....and all four of our family had 10!!!!!! It was a full time job. Every spare waking moment.....The boys were tanks, Kal tactical and I was healer...usually. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 ok I'm now 7th top poster with 8, still a long way behind Andy P. Still there's plenty of time...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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