For those interested in old cars.

[PhilJ W]

Going the other way I wonder what was the first British car to have all round independent suspension? The Morgan 3 wheeler must be a contender with its sliding pillar front suspension though I'm not certain if the rear wheel was sprung or not.

Edited March 17, 2022 by PhilJ W

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

The Morgan 3 wheeler must be a contender with its sliding pillar front suspension though I'm not certain if the rear wheel was sprung or not.

Yes, it was.

However, as with most proper Morgans [not the gucci handbags they became in recent times....A shift of customer demographic indeed!], one may be forgiven for thinking that the idea of suspension was indeed an alien concept to Morgan.....Certainly my old 4/4 had no discernible suspension movement!

There is considerable opinion that most of the 'suspension' identified on Morgans was more likely as a result of chassis twist [flex] , than of any deflection of the rear leaf springs.

Indeed, it was known that Morgans had to have their body tubs renewed every 7 years or so, if driven regularly & hard.  The ash frames were indeed flexible as well....There used to be a good aftermarket industry in Morgan frames....The fella that eventually bought my 4/4 off me, reckoned he could  re-body his daily 4/4 in a week...

Yup, you modern drivers [or, drivers of moderns?] don't know how lucky you are!!!

 

One could 'leave things alone' at the risk of doors opening unintentionally...

Rust wasn't really a problem....Woodworm, on the other hand....

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

I see where you're coming from, Phil, but I didn't have quite that perception, being brought up in Devon and living in Wilts for several decades.  Indeed, many farmers had them, but a seemingly equal number had cars, using their tractors to get around the farm.  A number of folks like builders would also have them, for preference, particularly as many of their clients worked / lived on the land.  That said, there were also a very considerable number of people using them for caravans, boats, laneing, lamping, shooting, fishing, climbing, those who lived out in the sticks, or just 'cause they liked them {like my brother did}.  I knew a few who had them because they were tough and cheap - well they were back then, at least.     

 

Perhaps more suiting a dual-purpose description...

 

I bet their accountant called them a "commercial" vehicle every March/April...........

[Northmoor]

I love Landies, but do find it funny when people buy Series LRs and Defenders as cars and wonder why they're "agricultural".  It's because they're agricultural vehicles which were designed to be also used on the road, rather than the modern 4x4 SUV, which is a road vehicle that is capable of going off-road (but maybe only a bit).  It's an important difference.

[alastairq]

Horses for courses?

 

Vehicles designed for off road use [or, use on non-weatherproof surfaces]...have more in their 'design' than merely a 4wd capability.

When I look into my old [2002] modern daily, a Suzuki Grand Vitara [more roomy than a Jimny]...which has a proper chassis [Suzuki were good at putting chassis under all sorts....just look at their Supercarry commercials, for example?]...with 2 & 4 wd, plus a low range...but more importantly, what is built in is the ability to survive on an off road environment.

One can have all the traction aids under the sun, but that doesn't mean the vehicle can survive  in an off road environment.

Ground clearance is king, regardless of the original design brief of the vehicle. hence many cars sold in places like Africa had good ground clearance [yet only 2 wd], and various other design features.

But 4 wd , fancy diff locks, electronic traction aids, etc, don't guarantee survivability.

Survivability means, things like 'sealed' fuel tanks [where watter cannot get in when fording]....breathers that terminate high up inside the bodywork, electrics well sealed, types of cooling fan [either fixed, but mostly thermo-coupled, rather than electric]...Strong suspension, even if low tech.....same with steering gear.

Modernity might be nodded to by having various means of allowing the front wheels to freewheel, when 4wd is not engaged [My GV has a little vacuum pump, to engage  a diaphragm clutch in the front diff housing..The 4Trak as either manual or auto front hubs....Jimny was lacking in such fancypants bits, as were original series Land Rovers. Deaf enders had a 3rd differential  [inter axle diff] which had to be locked to enable positive 4wd.

 

It's details like the above that differentiate an 'off-road' vehicle from a soft roader, or a Ford focus. 

 

Normal on-road driving character has to be subject to an element of compromise. Whether one's cruising speed has to be less than everybody elses? Or one's cornering ability has to be dealt with carefully.

Survivability doesn't mean making the thing bulletproof.....But it does mean the small details should have been addressed. That's survivability.

LAnd rovers have that..as do Suzuki's and Daihatsus...and basic Jeeps. Broncos, etc...too. LAnd Cruisers as well. None of which compare to a Hundai or a Kia on road.

 

 

 

 

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, alastairq said:

...But it does mean the small details should have been addressed. That's survivability.

LAnd rovers have that..as do Suzuki's and Daihatsus...and basic Jeeps. Broncos, etc...too. LAnd Cruisers as well. None of which compare to a Hundai or a Kia on road.

 

 

 

 

Very true, it’s the small things that people don’t see that makes a difference with a true off reader, even with (often derided for off-road work) a Range Rover I spent a few weeks once with miniature video cameras and splash shields trying to get a new version (V8 Petrol) through a wade and splash test, in the end no amount of shielding would protect the alternator and we had to go with a mil spec sealed version, just you wait until an owner has a failed one in seven or eight* years time, they’ll really wince at the cost of that replacement…….but it would take them through 900 mm of muddy water without failure.

 

*arbitrary figures, honest 

[alastairq]

In reality, [in other words, my limited experience]...when an alternator goes under water, it simply ceases to do it job until it emerges again.

The military spec [today mostly 24 volt]...alternator has no external cooling. They can be identified by their having some trunking from the casing, which goes to a 'filter'....

The problem with wading isn't just the water itself..but what is also suspended in the water.

UK military Land Rovers [TUL/TUM] had a wading depth of 500 mm. [ Just over 1 foot 6 inches], unprepared.

The new MAN support vehicles have a wading depth of 750 mm [ 2 foot 6 inches ]...unprepared.

Used to tell the folks that when they recced any deep water crossing, if they got their danglies/bits  wet, they should find somewhere else to cross!

 

The problem isn't whether either types of vehicle could actually keep moving or survive a deeper water crossing......[The defender sucks it's vital engine air from the side of the front wing]....but what is needed to be done to that vehicle, pretty toot sweet, afterwards, in order that it'll still work properly the week after!

As an aside, the MAN support vehicles [trucks, to the non-cognoscenti!] , if the intended journey will involve a deep water crossing [up to 1 - 1 1/2 metres]...then the vehicle has to be prepared prior , by the REME....Last time I looked, that involved at least 2 days work in a workshop!  After the journey, then there are another few days in a workshop area, cleaning the vehicle up and checking it over.

Woe betide any driver if the REME workshops check diff oil, and it comes out white!

 

So, if intending to be a weekend warrior with one's Defender, or whatever..and finds it fun to go splashing through 4 feet of muddy water time & again...be prepared to spend every evening of the following week pulling apart every wheel bearing and changing the lubricant, dropping every axle, gearbox & transfer box oil and cleaning & re-newing, then there's engine oil, steering  ox oil, power steering fluids, filters....Not forgetting draining the water traps on the fuel system...just in case the fuel filler cap isn't quite as good at preventing water getting into the fuel tank as the owner thought? Or worse still, whether the fuel tank breathers have been ignored, and are split?

 

All for a few hours of off-roady fun?

 

Incidentally, my Dellow can wade carefully through nearly two feet of water [streams, usually] without too much drama, providing I keep the speed down. But, but underwear gets wet in the process.  Plus, I do change the oils afterwards....the dipstick isn't well sealed!  But the ignition system is quite high up, being a sidevalve engine!  Ground clearance, even on the smaller 16 inch wheels, is good, and a short wheelbase means  a decent breakover angle...[better than a LAnd Rover too...]    But then it really is a 'proper' sports car, not a fancy ladies handbag!

 

[For arguments about what makes a 'real' sports car, refer to the motoring press from the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's......?   Current arguments much the same regarding trainers!]

 

 

[w124bob]

Spotted these two lovely little motors yesterday within about 20 mins of each other, sadly didn't have the camera handy for the A35 van, but found an image on the net. I'm guessing the Seven is a fairly late car.

 

[PhilJ W]

On 18/03/2022 at 10:32, w124bob said:

Spotted these two lovely little motors yesterday within about 20 mins of each other, sadly didn't have the camera handy for the A35 van, but found an image on the net. I'm guessing the Seven is a fairly late car.

 

The Seven is a 'Big seven' and now quite rare.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by PhilJ W

[alastairq]

30 minutes ago, w124bob said:

I'm guessing the Seven is a fairly late car.

 

I guess maybe worth it to get up half an hour earlier to drive it to work?

[MJI]

I currently have an off roader as my car.

 

Off road niceties which are not obvious.

The floor VERY gently slopes towards the doors with no trap for water.

Unlocking anti roll bars

All engine bits apart from starter are quite high up

 

Then there are obvious like locking centre diff, brake type traction control, good ground clearance, good articulation.

 

But then I would not take it on a very long trip (eg across Europe) without the following spares.

 

Crank sensor, fan belt, short fan belt capable of skipping one pulley, suspension airbag, spare ARB hydraulic hose.

 

And following fluids, engine oil, suspension & steering fluid, brake fluid and diff oil.

 

But then I have never NOT taken spare oil with me on any car.

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

In reality, [in other words, my limited experience]...when an alternator goes under water, it simply ceases to do it job until it emerges again.

The military spec [today mostly 24 volt]...alternator has no external cooling. They can be identified by their having some trunking from the casing, which goes to a 'filter'....

The problem with wading isn't just the water itself..but what is also suspended in the water.

UK military Land Rovers [TUL/TUM] had a wading depth of 500 mm. [ Just over 1 foot 6 inches], unprepared.

The new MAN support vehicles have a wading depth of 750 mm [ 2 foot 6 inches ]...unprepared.

Used to tell the folks that when they recced any deep water crossing, if they got their danglies/bits  wet, they should find somewhere else to cross!

 

The problem isn't whether either types of vehicle could actually keep moving or survive a deeper water crossing......[The defender sucks it's vital engine air from the side of the front wing]....but what is needed to be done to that vehicle, pretty toot sweet, afterwards, in order that it'll still work properly the week after!

As an aside, the MAN support vehicles [trucks, to the non-cognoscenti!] , if the intended journey will involve a deep water crossing [up to 1 - 1 1/2 metres]...then the vehicle has to be prepared prior , by the REME....Last time I looked, that involved at least 2 days work in a workshop!  After the journey, then there are another few days in a workshop area, cleaning the vehicle up and checking it over.

Woe betide any driver if the REME workshops check diff oil, and it comes out white!

 

So, if intending to be a weekend warrior with one's Defender, or whatever..and finds it fun to go splashing through 4 feet of muddy water time & again...be prepared to spend every evening of the following week pulling apart every wheel bearing and changing the lubricant, dropping every axle, gearbox & transfer box oil and cleaning & re-newing, then there's engine oil, steering  ox oil, power steering fluids, filters....Not forgetting draining the water traps on the fuel system...just in case the fuel filler cap isn't quite as good at preventing water getting into the fuel tank as the owner thought? Or worse still, whether the fuel tank breathers have been ignored, and are split?

 

All for a few hours of off-roady fun?

 

Incidentally, my Dellow can wade carefully through nearly two feet of water [streams, usually] without too much drama, providing I keep the speed down. But, but underwear gets wet in the process.  Plus, I do change the oils afterwards....the dipstick isn't well sealed!  But the ignition system is quite high up, being a sidevalve engine!  Ground clearance, even on the smaller 16 inch wheels, is good, and a short wheelbase means  a decent breakover angle...[better than a LAnd Rover too...]    But then it really is a 'proper' sports car, not a fancy ladies handbag!

 

[For arguments about what makes a 'real' sports car, refer to the motoring press from the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's......?   Current arguments much the same regarding trainers!]

 

 

Modern Land/Range Rovers have sealed vented diffs/box’s and rack so REME can have some scoff. 

 

Even a South American spec Mondeo will wade 600 mm without incident….it’s what I did 

 

[Phil Traxson]

On 13/03/2022 at 17:42, boxbrownie said:

It’s not the noise (although that would still be abreach) it’s the fact there is open access to what could be extremely hot surfaces.

Just as on almost every motor cycle!!?

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, MJI said:

I currently have an off roader as my car.

 

Off road niceties which are not obvious.

The floor VERY gently slopes towards the doors with no trap for water.

Unlocking anti roll bars

All engine bits apart from starter are quite high up

 

Then there are obvious like locking centre diff, brake type traction control, good ground clearance, good articulation.

 

But then I would not take it on a very long trip (eg across Europe) without the following spares.

 

Crank sensor, fan belt, short fan belt capable of skipping one pulley, suspension airbag, spare ARB hydraulic hose.

 

And following fluids, engine oil, suspension & steering fluid, brake fluid and diff oil.

 

But then I have never NOT taken spare oil with me on any car.

Yep…..Land Rover…..making mechanics out of drivers since 1948 

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

Just as on almost every motor cycle!!?

Almost all motorbike silencers should have a double walled construction or your bit would burn her/his thigh/s ooo er missus!

Edited March 18, 2022 by boxbrownie

[PhilJ W]

I had a Suzuki SJ10, I can't remember if the door bottoms went down to the floor but any water inside would have drained out through the rust holes. I did once take it through water about two feet deep without any problems. The distributor was high up on the side of the engine and the spark plugs were on the top of the cylinder head set into the valve cover.

[MJI]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Yep…..Land Rover…..making mechanics out of drivers since 1948 

Had it I think 8 years.

 

Most work has been servicing but I did rebuild the hydraulic suspension with hoses due to fatigue cracks in pipe flanges.

[peanuts]

this popped up in one of my faceache feeds maybe of interest to our resident frankophile member believe this is a works prototype on either the safari or ivory coast rallys 

[alastairq]

When one compares typical mainstream manufacturers' models, and their 'mechanical' and electrical layouts, with a vehicle designed to survive off the tarmac [as well as on tarmac,of course] then the detail differences suddenly become alarmingly obvious...and to some, maybe not acceptable for a daily shopper or get-to-worker.

For examples, just think back to times when flooded roads were commonplace? 

How many ordinary cars did one see getting sidelined though the effects of water on, what might be deemed, poorly-sited ECUs and stuff?

[Some Citroen-PSA commonplace models spring to mind]

In many ways, car designs became too specific. Too focused on specific environments.

Which , I think, has led to the driving public's fears of 'other' driving environments.

 

''World'' cars are seen as 'boring' & uninspiring.  In this category I think of Toyota Corollas, Merc 200's [What I call Beirut taxis]...big ol' Volvo 240s...and the products of home market American manufacturers.....always decried for their big 'lazy' engines, and uninspiring road handling...yet actually built to survive on all America's highways...weather proof or not. [I'm not referring to specific off road vehicles, but ordinary, ''family'' transport]

 

We see the demise of popular usage of , for example, 80 and 70 aspect tyres?

Ostensibly to vastly improve grip & road holding....but I suspect to drastically save on manufacturing costs, and maximise profits.

The downsides are blamed on everything, and everyone else......for example, the pothole thing?

We ignore the harshness of ride, and cushion our vertebras with plush upholstery..Or convince the young enthusiast that rock-'ard rides are a performance thing.

Potholes have always appeared...They are a fact of life in the fight to maintain weatherproof road surfaces. The results of huge increases in heavy vehicle journeys, and ever bigger tractor tyres.

Yet how come Audis now struggle to cope & survive when pots are encountered?

It's never the vehicle design, or the tyre size selection of the owner that  is blamed...Always the local Authority for not whizzing around eve 5 minutes to repair the pots.  My LA area has dedicated teams [contractors? I'm not sure] tearing around the roads filling in pots, and nothing else.

 

Yet many of those cars qualify for zero VED! So financially contribute almost nothing towards keeping road surfaces smooth enough that those cars can speed around with impunity.

 

Chicken & egg thing once more??

One time, makers built ther cars for the roads.

Now we have to build our roads for the cars.

 

Personally, I'd sooner my tax pension pounds didn't contribute towards smoother roads for Audis.

If the fella 6 doors up chooses to bring a knife to a gunfight, why should I have to contribute to his poor choice of wheels?

[MJI]

Air intakes under bumpers in air dams.

 

Stupid idea

[alastairq]

'Twould be like having air scoops to cool bicycle brakes?

[MJI]

A good idea are curry hooks

[rocor]

Last year, I watched some interesting YouTube videos that featured the work of Ivan Dutton. These were titled "Ivan's Shed".

 

These then appeared to have come to an end. But have now been resumed under the title "Shed Racing". There is much for those interested in old cars to enjoy through watching these.

 

 

[Rugd1022]

A couple of quickies from the NEC show today....

 

 

 

 

[Rugd1022]

A few more yanks from the NEC resto show....