Where are the Hornby models?

[The Stationmaster]

Okay, so 'Design Clever' was an own-goal as far as locomotive handrails are concerned, but I am sure the level of detail using minute plastic parts, as shown below, could not be sustained. The designer simply wasn't making the best use of plastic injection moulding.

 

Some of the components for fitting bogie stepboards on one LNER coach....

WEB design clever.jpg

I think that is one of the important points about 'design clever' - there are areas where it makes great sense and would realistically avoid hand assembly work and I can see the point of it.  But there are other areas where the application of it seems to be rather hit & miss - the smokebox door of the 'up market' version of the new 'Hall' being an example where it has a lamp bracket that looks quite good,  and has the look of a separate moulding due to its shape, but the smokebox door handle is incorporated on the door moulding.  Surely Hornby could do a proper job and add another tenner to the RRP thus improving marketability of what so far looks a bit like the curate's egg?

[The Stationmaster]

Mike is curate's egg another word for a pile of dooh dooh.

I usually try to be polite  (actually the early efforts for the 'Hall' don't look too bad, subject to caveats as normal at this stage but some of 'design clever' really strikes me as exactly the opposite!)

[7013]

Taking the Hall alone, generally Bachmann locos run a bit cheaper than Hornby for no discernable difference in quality and performance. Therefore if Bachmann s Hall is better detailed for a cheaper price there will be no contest Hornby design clever will have shot itself in the foot

[Miss Prism]

Hornby's new boiler bands are far better than Bachmann's, and if Hornby don't cock up the chimney and front end like Bachmann did, a contrary view might prevail.

 

The only obvious 'shooting in foot' problem might be persuading punters that a £134 Star isn't quite so good as an £83 Hall...

[robmcg]

it would have a list price of over £150, be two years late and the threads would be about overpricing.

 

Each to their own but I would not cancel a Star because of minor mouldings that can be changed in minutes if really an issue. Compared to £250+ for Star kit parts plus 50 hours building time at £30 an hour plus £150 painting fees, the Hornby loco at £105 from most sources a true bargain in my opinion. All I have to do is open the box and enjoy.

 

I find it interesting that the detail levels here http://www.goldenagemodels.net/GWR-Locomotives-Star-Class-OO-Gauge.html  is expected for modest mass produced prices.I would be surprised if the detail level of a few years back will ever return not without a doubling of current prices, based on recent Chinese wage increases - and Bachmann clearly are not exempt from 'design clever'. Look at the broad gauge tender brakes on current 'high tech' models.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Good points. I think that to retain models of the quality Hornby reached a few years ago we will have to fit detail parts, like smokebox darts, ourselves,  or pay a great deal more, the latter being an unlikely risk for either main manufacturer. 

 

The age of cheap very skilled  labour are over, I have always found the standards quite exceptional for mass production, and the current delays in Hornby and Bachmann new models suggest to me that it might be hard to find such in other countries, at a price near where it was.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to try to employ a selection of local European kids and expect them to reliably install brake rods on an 00 model, although I daresay some could and would do ok.

 

The current and recent RTR models are a great joy to me, and just this morning I bought this pair of UK-weathered locos (was going to say 'beauties, but a Q1 ? ). The BoB has special meaning as many of my parent's generation were in the RAF during WW2.

 

The detailing from the factory on both is very good in my opinion. There are some parts which as Larry pointed out with carriages are not easily fitted, and I would prefer etched smoke deflectors as on Bachmann's Patriots but I am not complaining.  Smokebox darts really do need to be separate though, I think, as in the standards achieved all though the 2000s. pics are from linesideandlocos  no connection except as customer.

 

Curiously, Hornby model the valve gear on the BoB with one side in forward gear, and one side slightly in reverse.  Corporate philosophy?

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

I think the importance of smokebox door handles (isn't the dart the bit on the other end, inside the smokebox?) has been rather overstated.

 

It is one of the easiest jobs going to fit a nice brass one in place of the plastic original and there are many other things I would choose to have done for me in preference.

 

As for the O1 flywheel being visible down the chimney, I must confess to never having looked at one from that angle! Where does one fit the smoke unit?

 

Right-side v. left-side valve gear anomalies are not confined to the rebuilt WCs or even to Hornby products, they have been common errors in the representation of Walschaerts valve gear in model form for many years.  

 

John

[7013]

Hmmm, I was thinking more of Bachmann vs Hornby Halls Miss Prism, not Hall vs Star

[robmcg]

Yes, I think some Bachmann Standard tank engines are in reverse gear, but it's really just a fussy thing  for me.  Equally I think smokebox darts/handles do not look good when moulded onto the smokebox, and I cannot easily drill/fit aftermarket ones (but might give it a go), Bachmann seem to get their on without trouble.  I don't know enough about injection moulding, costs and so on to really comment about the choices involved in design smart.

[Dunsignalling]

Coach bogie, on 22 Sept 2013 - 11:25, said:

 

it would have a list price of over £150, be two years late and the threads would be about overpricing.

 

Each to their own but I would not cancel a Star because of minor mouldings that can be changed in minutes if really an issue. Compared to £250+ for Star kit parts plus 50 hours building time at £30 an hour plus £150 painting fees, the Hornby loco at £105 from most sources a true bargain in my opinion. All I have to do is open the box and enjoy.

 

I find it interesting that the detail levels here http://www.goldenagemodels.net/GWR-Locomotives-Star-Class-OO-Gauge.html is expected for modest mass produced prices.I would be surprised if the detail level of a few years back will ever return not without a doubling of current prices, based on recent Chinese wage increases - and Bachmann clearly are not exempt from 'design clever'. Look at the broad gauge tender brakes on current 'high tech' models.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I completely agree with all that.

 

Where I differ from many others is that I don't believe Hornby should dilute the standards they have achieved in recent years for their flagship models. The place for corner cutting is in 'Railroad' and parallel introductions in both ranges should provide everyone with what they want.

 

To provide an anachronistic (and, perhaps, somewhat extreme) analogy; would you rather have one Hornby or two Lima Class 50s for the same money?

 

I am willing to pay the going rate for quality, even if it means I can afford fewer new locos; or buy Railroad and upgrade them myself. I'd probably do a bit of each if this state of affairs did come to pass.

 

My worry is that Hornby will land somewhere in the middle; producing models that no longer generate the 'wow' factor but which cost more to bring up to scratch than Hornby would have charged for doing it in the first place.

 

John

[Coach bogie]

I am willing to pay the going rate for quality, even if it means I can afford fewer new locos; or buy Railroad and upgrade them myself. I'd probably do a bit of each if this state of affairs did come to pass.

 

My worry is that Hornby will land somewhere in the middle; producing models that no longer generate the 'wow' factor but which cost more to bring up to scratch than Hornby would have charged for doing it in the first place.

 

John

And here is the challenge for all manufacturers. Who is the target Cutomer?  We are all quite vocal about what we do/do not expect but what share of the total sales do we represent? There are three clear categories of target customers.

 

1. Customers who are currently happy/do not care about extra detail etc but are more price conscious

 

2. Customers who would prefer higher detail but accept moderate detail and add the extras themselves.

 

3. Customers who will only consider highly detailed models.

 

I suspect that the total of target groups 1 & 2 far outnumber 3 and represent the greater turnover for Hornby and others. I imagine there are more group 2 on RM Web than we expect. I recall when the Railroad 9F came out - my superscale friends purchased in quantities and reached for their unused Crownline detailing kits.

 

There is a fourth group who just appear to get on with it. The younger digital customer who cares more for the technological aspect of DCC than the look of the trains. If they cannot chip it, they don't buy it - detail levels do not come into it. Trust me this group is expanding as my son and his friends will tell you.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dunsignalling]

And here is the challenge for all manufacturers. Who is the target Cutomer?  We are all quite vocal about what we do/do not expect but what share of the total sales do we represent? There are three clear categories of target customers.

 

1. Customers who are currently happy/do not care about extra detail etc but are more price conscious

 

2. Customers who would prefer higher detail but accept moderate detail and add the extras themselves.

 

3. Customers who will only consider highly detailed models.

 

I suspect that the total of target groups 1 & 2 far outnumber 3 and represent the greater turnover for Hornby and others. I imagine there are more group 2 on RM Web than we expect. I recall when the Railroad 9F came out - my superscale friends purchased in quantities and reached for their unused Crownline detailing kits.

 

There is a fourth group who just appear to get on with it. The younger digital customer who cares more for the technological aspect of DCC than the look of the trains. If they cannot chip it, they don't buy it - detail levels do not come into it. Trust me this group is expanding as my son and his friends will tell you.

 

Mike Wiltshire

On that basis, "New spec" Railroad should satisfy Categories 2 and 4. However, everything new and most re-releases have sockets these days so I don't think Category 4 is really a separate group in this context.

 

The problem is that a lot of Category 1 customers still want next year's models at last year's prices (and are pretty vociferous about it) when increased production costs have to be passed on if there is to be any chance of overcoming supply difficulties. 

 

Leaving just three questions:

 

1. Are there enough Category 3 customers to make it worthwhile producing fully detailed models at all?

2. Can any producer retain any aspiration to be the market leader if it doesn't?

3. Is the UK market worth bothering with if it can't?

 

Unfortunately, the status quo is not an option. 

 

As to question 1, my guess is that Hornby knows this better than we do and that if there weren't, they wouldn't have been trying so hard to satisfy them for the first decade of this century. I think the super-detailed coach ranges may be even more indicative of this than the locomotives - Bachmann's Mk1s may have been inspirational, but Hornby were effectively entering an untried market segment with no competitors and no empirical knowledge of how many people would be willing to shell out £30 to £40 per coach.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

On that basis, "New spec" Railroad should satisfy Categories 2 and 4. However, everything new and most re-releases have sockets these days so I don't think Category 4 is really a separate group in this context.

 

The problem is that a lot of Category 1 customers still want next year's models at last year's prices (and are pretty vociferous about it) when increased production costs have to be passed on if there is to be any chance of overcoming supply difficulties. 

 

Leaving just three questions:

 

1. Are there enough Category 3 customers to make it worthwhile producing fully detailed models at all?

2. Can any producer retain any aspiration to be the market leader if it doesn't?

3. Is the UK market worth bothering with if it can't?

 

Unfortunately, the status quo is not an option. 

 

As to question 1, my guess is that Hornby knows this better than we do and that if there weren't, they wouldn't have been trying so hard to satisfy them for the first decade of this century. I think the super-detailed coach ranges may be even more indicative of this than the locomotives - Bachmann's Mk1s may have been inspirational, but Hornby were effectively entering an untried market segment with no competitors and no empirical knowledge of how many people would be willing to shell out £30 to £40 per coach.

 

John

There clearly is a market in Category 3 otherwise other folk would not be into it and not going out of business.  Hornby f course have also been into it and I think this is where they have got things slightly wrong by confusing that market area with high volume production and by listening to the very vocal rock bottom price demands from a section of the hobby.  If Hornby wish to leave Category 3 to others then fair enough - that will be their loss and quite likely ours as well as the run of really good locos and superb coaches dribbles to an undignified and messy 'design clever plus' end where they are neither one thing or the other, this is what I meant when I said Hornby need to understand this market sector commercially.

 

At present they're trying to be all things to all categories and getting themselves into a bit of a scrape where they aren't hitting any of them very accurately due to over=-priced items in the Railroad range and poorly executed models where they aspire to be near the top of the detail heap.  If I was sitting in Canham's chair one of the things near the top of my 'to do' list would be to try and arrive at a clear understanding of their various markets by both volume and price and assess their relative profitabilities plus what needed to be done in order to develop brand and brand sector reputation and integrity.  It's no good deciding what to make and how to make it if you don't know, or are unclear, about who is going to buy it and why they are buying it at a particular price.

 

(BTW you're right - the smokebox dart is the piece which extends inside the smokebox to engages with a fitting/slot in order to hold the smokebox door tightly closed when the smokebox door handle is tightened; the innermost handle of the two (when there are two) is used to turn the dart to properly engage it, the outermost handle is then screwed up tight to hold the inner handle firmly in position.)

[Nimbus]

Curiously, Hornby model the valve gear on the BoB with one side in forward gear, and one side slightly in reverse.  Corporate philosophy?

 

The method Hornby use for setting the driving crankpin with its flats for anchoring the return crank at a consistent angle, is to put a flatted head on it, which sits in a matching recess in the back of the wheel. They then avoid the chances of random combinations by only making one pattern of wheel, so the offset of the return crank when viewed facing the wheel, is the same on both sides of the loco. So a deliberate compromise, rather than an error, methinks.

 

The Nim.

['CHARD]

I'm not sure whether my inability to identify whether a loco's in forward or reverse by looking at it puts me in some sub-category of three, when I actually only started to appreciate steam locos because of the quality of Hornby's A3 and Britannia, which as a buyer puts me in the category two...  Does it?  I've no qualms whatsoever about taking my chances by not buying at RRP (or box-shifter discount on release), and waiting for deep discounts later, which is how I've amassed the classes where I've now got multiple examples.  Plus the odd Cat 3 specimen like the Olympic pack N2.  I think, based on the above reflection, the haphazard chaos of the red team's marketing strategy is one of the principal sources of my purchasing entertainment (not to say fleet growth) in recent years.

 

Just a nod in the direction of Barwell if I may - own-goals like the V2 with new mechanism but old tooling green bits are just as 'Railroad' in their own way.  Likewise, trotting out the dubious BR-Sulzer Type 2s with their neither here nor there shape but with sound, DCC and all the frills is in a similar vein.  And how many times have we seen frothy clamour for the long-time coming Class 40s?

 

I'm not making much sense here, or am I?  It's 0200, time for a few hours' kip.

[robmcg]

...

 

haphazard chaos of the red team's marketing strategy is one of the principal sources of my purchasing entertainment (not to say fleet growth) in recent years.

 

...

 

.

 

Me too. And similarly I have amassed a fair number of lovely models.  Good point about the Bachmann V2., the Barwell equivalent of Hornby Railroad.  Watching second hand values, you can still buy quite a range of very high quality BR steam era models for under £100. Bachmann BR Standard 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s you can hardly give away, and yet they are stunning when weathered.  Great fun!

[bingley hall]

.......

 

HEALTH WARING: some of my comment that follow may seriously offend.  They are however proffered as my view on the current supply problem.

 

 

The supply problems are across Europe at least and maybe beyond. 

 

...........

 

I guess I have now just about pee'd everyone else.

 

It's a pity this post can't be made into a sticky. It shouldn't pee anyone off as its is probably the best summary I've read of the situation. Many of the points have been raised before, but unfortunately it's all too hard for many to comprehend. The same problem is raised frequently on one of the US model forums I frequent, except there the debate there is a little more understanding.

 

Even in Australia similar issues are occurring. For a light hearted take, look up Hitler, not happy his model locomotive isn't being made on YouTube.

I won't post the direct link as the language is a bit over the top.

 

Thanks for taking the time to spell out the situation  - hopefully everyone in the class has been paying attention this time.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm not sure whether my inability to identify whether a loco's in forward or reverse by looking at it puts me in some sub-category of three,

You aren't!!!!!

 

I might be in with a chance if I have long enough and the loco is standing still. Otherwise, forget it.

[Dunsignalling]

It's a pity this post can't be made into a sticky. It shouldn't pee anyone off as its is probably the best summary I've read of the situation. Many of the points have been raised before, but unfortunately it's all too hard for many to comprehend. The same problem is raised frequently on one of the US model forums I frequent, except there the debate there is a little more understanding.

 

Even in Australia similar issues are occurring. For a light hearted take, look up Hitler, not happy his model locomotive isn't being made on YouTube.

I won't post the direct link as the language is a bit over the top.

 

Thanks for taking the time to spell out the situation  - hopefully everyone in the class has been paying attention this time.

Hi(t)larious........

[coachmann]

If, as many folk on here believe, the majority of Hornby customers couldn't give a monkeys, then Hornby wouldn't have gone bust. Hornby clearly felt it had to appeal to the discerning railway modeller, which it started to do just over ten years ago. Modestly, I am told by an agent I helped move the game incrementaly with the Bullied Pacific as all models since then have featured cab backhead detail that is picked out. I don't know why railway modellers run themselves down when there is nothing wrong with expecting detailed/accurate models in this day and age. Making a stand against moulded on smokebox darts and locomotive handrails is only natural when a manufacturer thinks it can put the clock back. Sure, It CAN put the clock back, but it is bad commercial judgement in a market shared by Bachmann.

 

Coaches are a different matter when it comes to moulded door& grab handles. Such things only stick out about 2 inches (I have an LNWR carriage grab handle), and while they are okay in fine wire, the necessity of 'clunky' thick plastic means it is better to mould them on as detail. I personally prefer it to fine detail that falls off and would cite the Bachmann BR Mk.I coach as the model to follow.

[justin1985]

I'm surprised to see only one mention of Hornby International. Lots of people are talking about sharing production slots with Corgi etc., but I'd be pretty certain that its the Jouef HO and Arnold N that the UK Hornby range is competing against for Hornby's precious few production slots.

 

Following Arnold N gauge, its my perception that supply has increased a lot over the past year, from a tiny trickle of new models to quite a good selection now. Quite conceivably the greater profit margins on European outline models are prioritising those over the UK models? A recent Arnold Bo-Bo electric which I bought had an RRP of around €180, and wagons regularly have RRPs in the €30-40 range. Makes sense to me!

 

On the "design clever" question, I think this was an inevitable move. The early 2000s were a golden era of cheap labour in China and abundant cash (credit) in the west - "we'd never had it so good" - and we'll never have it so good again! Perhaps its a comment on many railway modellers, many of whom are from the "baby boomer" generation, who have been used to economic growth and technological progress throughout their lives, that they expect things to keep getting better. As a younger generation, I fully expect the western economy to get worse in my lifetime, and accept that design clever is the best approach of continuing to be able to engage in hobbies like railway modelling!

 

Also, you just have to look at models from Kato etc to see that the obsession with separately added details we had in the UK during the 2000s isn't necessarily the route to the best models! Plenty of moulded handrails and radiator grilles, rather than wire or etches, on models released in the 2000s, but still lauded as the best quality models! Very much design clever

[coachmann]

Perhaps its a comment on many railway modellers, many of whom are from the "baby boomer" generation, who have been used to economic growth and technological progress throughout their lives, that they expect things to keep getting better. As a younger generation, I fully expect the western economy to get worse in my lifetime, and accept that design clever is the best approach of continuing to be able to engage in hobbies like railway modelling!

 

Of course people expected steady improvements when war ended...... They lived and worked in conditions that would scare the hell out of younger folk but its your turn to fight for things now. The movers and shakers have been working hard to lower your expectations and it looks like it has been working.

[andytrains]

Me too. And similarly I have amassed a fair number of lovely models.  Good point about the Bachmann V2., the Barwell equivalent of Hornby Railroad.  Watching second hand values, you can still buy quite a range of very high quality BR steam era models for under £100. Bachmann BR Standard 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s you can hardly give away, and yet they are stunning when weathered.  Great fun!

You are right about the Bachmann standards. Picked a Class 5 up for £34 at a show on Saturday. Nothing at all wrong with it apart from being a bit dusty! 

[Legend]

It's a pity this post can't be made into a sticky. It shouldn't pee anyone off as its is probably the best summary I've read of the situation. Many of the points have been raised before, but unfortunately it's all too hard for many to comprehend. The same problem is raised frequently on one of the US model forums I frequent, except there the debate there is a little more understanding.

 

Even in Australia similar issues are occurring. For a light hearted take, look up Hitler, not happy his model locomotive isn't being made on YouTube.

I won't post the direct link as the language is a bit over the top.

 

Thanks for taking the time to spell out the situation  - hopefully everyone in the class has been paying attention this time.

 

Just a shame he doesn't work for Hornby where silence is still deafening . Come on Hornby you could get us all on side if you'd just communicate

[justin1985]

The movers and shakers have been working hard to lower your expectations and it looks like it has been working.

 

Not to drag the thread too far off course, but personally I would have seen it as politicians desperately pushing the notion that expectations can continually rise, rather than lowering them. My day job is a postdoctoral researcher in economic history (admittedly concentrating on fifteenth to seventeenth century economic history) and it has always struck me that the postwar era saw an exceptional combination of demographic and macroeconomic factors coming together to give the fastest, and most widely distributed economic growth we've ever seen. However we direct domestic politics, we now have a reversal of the situation in terms of global macroeconomics, and that demographic bubble that served us so well is now coming back to bite us on the a**e. We missed our chance to invest in infrastructure or useful industrial education by binging on property and low taxes - and now we're surprised when Chinese manufacture is no longer the cheap cash-cow for British firms? 

 

To return to Hornby, I thought that coach's illustration of the Hornby bogie parts is the perfect illustration of how unsustainable the design of Hornby moulds had become - thats all I'm saying we need to see the back of. This KATO N gauge NOHAB illustrates what I meant about handrails and etched parts - its a recent model from around 2009 or 2010, and the only added detail parts are the roof aerials and lights - but the only extra added part I would have used would be the roof horn. Similarly the KATO N class 66 has an entirely injection moulded body, but in my opinion looks far finer than the Dapol effort, with its numerous separately added handrails, etched roof grille etc. Design clever can work!

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

In listening to Beethoven ( another vice of mine ) the silences....and the quality of stillness they incur..between movements or even bars of music are often as important as the music itself.Beethoven,remember,was deaf for much of his later years and yet the quality and depth of his output remained undimmed to the end.

 

Let's hope that Hornby are making their own kind of music between the silences and that a late flowering will blossom and confound us all.Mind you.......silences can simply mean that there's nothing to say.